Is Russia about to invade Ukraine? (1 Viewer)

[superchuck500]

Russia continues to mass assets within range of Ukraine - though the official explanations are that they are for various exercises. United States intelligence has noted that Russian operatives in Ukraine could launch 'false flag' operations as a predicate to invasion. The West has pressed for negotiations and on Friday in Geneva, the US Sec. State Blinken will meet with the Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov.

Certainly the Russian movements evidence some plan - but what is it? Some analysts believe that Putin's grand scheme involves securing Western commitments that NATO would never expand beyond its current composition. Whether that means action in Ukraine or merely the movement of pieces on the chess board remains to be seen.

VIENNA — No one expected much progress from this past week’s diplomatic marathon to defuse the security crisis Russia has ignited in Eastern Europe by surrounding Ukraine on three sides with 100,000 troops and then, by the White House’s accounting, sending in saboteurs to create a pretext for invasion.

But as the Biden administration and NATO conduct tabletop simulations about how the next few months could unfold, they are increasingly wary of another set of options for President Vladimir V. Putin, steps that are more far-reaching than simply rolling his troops and armor over Ukraine’s border.

Mr. Putin wants to extend Russia’s sphere of influence to Eastern Europe and secure written commitments that NATO will never again enlarge. If he is frustrated in reaching that goal, some of his aides suggested on the sidelines of the negotiations last week, then he would pursue Russia’s security interests with results that would be felt acutely in Europe and the United States.

There were hints, never quite spelled out, that nuclear weapons could be shifted to places — perhaps not far from the United States coastline — that would reduce warning times after a launch to as little as five minutes, potentially igniting a confrontation with echoes of the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis.

Russia Issues Subtle Threats More Far-Reaching Than a Ukraine Invasion

If the West fails to meet its security demands, Moscow could take measures like placing nuclear missiles close to the U.S. coastline, Russian officials have hinted.

www.nytimes.com

Blinken Will Meet With Russia as U.S. Pushes for More Diplomacy

Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken will meet with Foreign Minister Sergey V. Lavrov of Russia in Geneva on Friday as the United States warns that Russia could soon attack Ukraine.

www.nytimes.com

How to think about war in Ukraine

Start with the Ukrainians

snyder.substack.com

 

[SaintForLife]

And?

What's the upside to giving Ukraine to Putin?

If it's saving Ukrainian lives, I'd argue the Ukrainians themselves are the only ones with the right to determine what they're worth.

If it's American lives, we aren't spending any.

If it's money, this war is an incredible value. Real-world testing of tactics and systems, done by a military full of innovators who're freely sharing their data with us. We could spend twice the money and lose ten times more troops to obtain less and inferior data with large scale training exercises.

Other than making Cheato Jesus happy, I'm not seeing any good reason to wish the Russians success.

I post tweets and one says:

"The CIA and Western intelligence agencies... didn't care if Ukraine won. It's sociopathic...

They placed no value on the lives of Ukrainians while they were telling their populations that all they cared about were Ukrainians.

They saw them as pawns to be sacrificed."

And your response is and?

After their country is destroyed and have 120,000 deaths and 170,000 to 180,000 troops injured and that's okay with you became Ukrainians are the only ones to determine their worth? Cannon fodder?

Even now with their country in shambles and many lives lost, you still think it was money well spent?

Who's talking about giving Ukraine to Putin?
Who us wishing Russie success? Can you guys post on this subject without strawman? Probably not

 

[SaintForLife]

Not to mention no president has ever abused the DOJ like Trump did. He used it to quash investigations into his buddies and throw his enemies into jail. He used the IRS to do exhaustive audits of his perceived enemies. Nobody is as corrupt as Trump, so therefore the propaganda machine has to go into overdrive to try to find anything on Biden. It’s totally transparent to anyone who isn’t drinking the kool-aid.

Give me a break. The same DOJ that was investigating Trump, illegally spying on his campaign with falsified FISA documents, using the Steele Dossier on those FISA warrants, opened a full-fledged investigation based on raw, unanalyzed and uncorroborated intelligence, that falsified a document, and that tried to stall the Hunter Biden investigation?

Yeah okay. That's hilarious

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I post tweets and one says:

"The CIA and Western intelligence agencies... didn't care if Ukraine won. It's sociopathic...

They placed no value on the lives of Ukrainians while they were telling their populations that all they cared about were Ukrainians.

They saw them as pawns to be sacrificed."

And your response is and?

After their country is destroyed and have 120,000 deaths and 170,000 to 180,000 troops injured and that's okay with you became Ukrainians are the only ones to determine their worth? Cannon fodder?

Even now with their country in shambles and many lives lost, you still think it was money well spent?

Who's talking about giving Ukraine to Putin?
Who us wishing Russie success? Can you guys post on this subject without strawman? Probably not

No, you posted a tweet of Gleen forking Greenwald's opinion. Be honest for once.

 

[Lapaz]

I post tweets and one says:

"The CIA and Western intelligence agencies... didn't care if Ukraine won. It's sociopathic...

They placed no value on the lives of Ukrainians while they were telling their populations that all they cared about were Ukrainians.

They saw them as pawns to be sacrificed."

And your response is and?

After their country is destroyed and have 120,000 deaths and 170,000 to 180,000 troops injured and that's okay with you became Ukrainians are the only ones to determine their worth? Cannon fodder?

Even now with their country in shambles and many lives lost, you still think it was money well spent?

Who's talking about giving Ukraine to Putin?
Who us wishing Russie success? Can you guys post on this subject without strawman? Probably not

If America were attacked, would you say that it wouldn't be worth losing 120,000 lives to fight back the aggressor? Would you think we should allow someone to take over America if that was the cost? Well, Ukranians want to fight to keep their country. We're not forcing them to fight. We're only willing to support them.

 

[Taurus]

I post tweets and one says:

"The CIA and Western intelligence agencies... didn't care if Ukraine won. It's sociopathic...

They placed no value on the lives of Ukrainians while they were telling their populations that all they cared about were Ukrainians.

They saw them as pawns to be sacrificed."

And your response is and?

After their country is destroyed and have 120,000 deaths and 170,000 to 180,000 troops injured and that's okay with you became Ukrainians are the only ones to determine their worth? Cannon fodder?

Even now with their country in shambles and many lives lost, you still think it was money well spent?

Who's talking about giving Ukraine to Putin?
Who us wishing Russie success? Can you guys post on this subject without strawman? Probably not

Abandoning Ukraine means giving it to Russia. Saying the Ukrainians themselves have self-determination regarding their fight with Putin is giving them the respect they are due. The aren't puppets, they're people with their own will, their own agency. We can help, hinder or stand aside, but we don't get to decide FOR THEM.

 

[MT15]

No, you posted a tweet of Gleen forking Greenwald's opinion. Be honest for once.

Exactly. One Russian cutout’s opinion is just that. Doesn’t mean anything.

 

[MT15]

Give me a break. The same DOJ that was investigating Trump, illegally spying on his campaign with falsified FISA documents, using the Steele Dossier on those FISA warrants, opened a full-fledged investigation based on raw, unanalyzed and uncorroborated intelligence, that falsified a document, and that tried to stall the Hunter Biden investigation?

Yeah okay. That's hilarious

None of this changes the facts. Once Barr took over at AG, Trump basically used the DOJ as his personal vendetta machine. And also used it to shut down investigations he wanted shut down.

See, this is why you get pushback.

 

[SaintForLife]

Exactly. One Russian cutout’s opinion is just that. Doesn’t mean anything.

Are you claiming that Greenwald is paid by the Russian government? Can you post a link with proof? Maybe his Fara documentation like Rothkopf’s?

 

[MT15]

Are you claiming that Greenwald is paid by the Russian government? Can you post a link with proof? Maybe his Fara documentation like Rothkopf’s?

He doesn’t have to be paid, no. But it is beyond obvious that he is determined to parrot the Kremlin‘s propaganda in most situations, especially any situations involving the US. Where he will very predictably support Russia. Most people have quit paying attention to him, because he‘s broken.

 

[bdb13]

I wonder why you aren't called a propagandist by the usual suspects for posting something similar to what I posted earlier in this thread?

I don't know for sure but I thought about it and I think it's probably because they believe I'm operating in good faith whether or not they agree with me... my impression of you is that you're often trying to get a rise out of people with your posts instead of engaging in sincere discussions.

 

[MT15]

None of this changes the facts. Once Barr took over at AG, Trump basically used the DOJ as his personal vendetta machine. And also used it to shut down investigations he wanted shut down.

See, this is why you get pushback.

For example:

 

[SaintForLife]

I don't know for sure but I thought about it and I think it's probably because they believe I'm operating in good faith whether or not they agree with me... my impression of you is that you're often trying to get a rise out of people with your posts instead of engaging in sincere discussions.

Nah. It's because they agree with you politically most of the time. I'm am sincerely anti war and anti establishment. Most people here are supportive of the wars we are involved in and support establishment positions and narratives. Is it my fault that that nobody shares those views here?

If I was trying to get a rise out of someone, wouldn't I constantly throw out insults as many do here to me? Do you notice how the people here who act like message board moderators(they aren't) constantly complain about how I post or who I post, but when others they agree with politically do something similar then they don't say a word?

 

[SaintForLife]

He doesn’t have to be paid, no. But it is beyond obvious that he is determined to parrot the Kremlin‘s propaganda in most situations, especially any situations involving the US. Where he will very predictably support Russia. Most people have quit paying attention to him, because he‘s broken.

He's an award winning journalist who broke two huge stories in Snowden and Lula I'm Brazil. He used to be liked by the left.

His views haven't changed. He's always been reporting on the National Security State and Intelligence agencies. What changed was the left once Trump was elected.

You are posting things from a literal foreign agent of a oppressive regime, but keep up with your CIA talking points.

 

[bdb13]

Nah. It's because they agree with you politically most of the time. I'm am sincerely anti war and anti establishment. Most people here are supportive of the wars we are involved in and support establishment positions and narratives. Is it my fault that that nobody shares those views here?

If I was trying to get a rise out of someone, wouldn't I constantly throw out insults as many do here to me? Do you notice how the people here who act like message board moderators(they aren't) constantly complain about how I post or who I post, but when others they agree with politically do something similar then they don't say a word?

I'm sure me agreeing with them on a lot of stuff plays its role but I can probably think of at least 10 things where I've disagreed or had opinions that were different than those of the majority and it's pretty much always disagreeing without being disagreeable.

You may not realize how condescending you can be at times and a lot of it (not saying all) is you getting back the energy you give.
...
I know in this thread I've invested time in responding to some things you've posted with my opinions and I don't think you've really responded but then will randomly come in and post things that more or less cast all of "us" as dumbasses who don't understand what's really happening. Now maybe, maybe not.. but I do try to get into discussions with an exchange of opinions and I feel I'm generally open to admitting that I'm wrong if I am but sometimes the way it all goes down makes it all difficult.

 

[efil4]

I'm sure me agreeing with them on a lot of stuff plays its role but I can probably think of at least 10 things where I've disagreed or had opinions that were different than those of the majority and it's pretty much always disagreeing without being disagreeable.

You may not realize how condescending you can be at times and a lot of it (not saying all) is you getting back the energy you give.
...
I know in this thread I've invested time in responding to some things you've posted with my opinions and I don't think you've really responded but then will randomly come in and post things that more or less cast all of "us" as dumbasses who don't understand what's really happening. Now maybe, maybe not.. but I do try to get into discussions with an exchange of opinions and I feel I'm generally open to admitting that I'm wrong if I am but sometimes the way it all goes down makes it all difficult.

he has no intention of engaging in debate over the veracity of his sources. He repeatedly bangs the drum and then disengages as soon as someone hip checks him into the boards.

its been a pattern not only on this thread, but just about every other thread he posts in.

Greenwald WAS an award winning journalist, but now has fallen into this abyss of "MSM bad/CIA controlled" narrative that isnt really going anywhere, only to drum up clicks/views etc

The intelligence community is working 24/7 to keep this country as safe as it can possibly be, know what our adversaries ( and allies ) are doing, want to do, wish they could do etc etc. But he attempts to make them seem as some subversive outfit intent on ultimate control.

They arent.

its a tired trope he hangs his hat on repeatedly thru different topics.

If we all stop engaging this dude, his audience dwindles to 1,and he ends up talking to himself. If he truly intended on dialogue, he would have it.

But as he has shown, time and time again, he is incapable of any sort of dialogue/debate. Because he knows just how thin his argument is.

 

[SaintForLife]

I'm sure me agreeing with them on a lot of stuff plays its role but I can probably think of at least 10 things where I've disagreed or had opinions that were different than those of the majority and it's pretty much always disagreeing without being disagreeable.

You may not realize how condescending you can be at times and a lot of it (not saying all) is you getting back the energy you give.
...
I know in this thread I've invested time in responding to some things you've posted with my opinions and I don't think you've really responded but then will randomly come in and post things that more or less cast all of "us" as dumbasses who don't understand what's really happening. Now maybe, maybe not.. but I do try to get into discussions with an exchange of opinions and I feel I'm generally open to admitting that I'm wrong if I am but sometimes the way it all goes down makes it all difficult.

Well when I'm called a troll, an idiot, a Russian supporter, propagandist, etc constantly its hard not to be condescending sometimes. How would you respond if people were constantly insulting you? How would you respond if someone called you out constantly for how you post while they ignore their friends here doing the exact same thing.

I'm not able to respond to everyone or every post when it might be 8 to 10 different people replying to my posts. Also, if someone constantly insults me I'm probably ignoring or not replying to their post.

I've seen the pattern here over the years. If someone supports Trump or supported any of his policies they will berate you until you admit they are right about Trump. If you don't then you are on their enemies list and then it's repeated insults.

 

[J-DONK]

Well when I'm called a troll, an idiot, a Russian supporter, propagandist, etc constantly its hard not to be condescending sometimes. How would you respond if people were constantly insulting you? How would you respond if someone called you out constantly for how you post while they ignore their friends here doing the exact same thing.

I'm not able to respond to everyone or every post when it might be 8 to 10 different people replying to my posts. Also, if someone constantly insults me I'm probably ignoring or not replying to their post.

I've seen the pattern here over the years. If someone supports Trump or supported any of his policies they will berate you until you admit they are right about Trump. If you don't then you are on their enemies list and then it's repeated insults.

You do need to do a better job of following up on post. You have a pattern of dumping questionable material, and never engaging in discussion about your material. You then show up a week later to repeat this cycle.

Practically the entire board has this opinion of your behavior, are we all wrong?

I personally think you don't read half, it not most of the follow-up comments because they question your worldview. I imagine you think we are gullible sheep whose thoughts echo MSM.

You also tend to treat the board like it's a monolith of thought. This board is not a homogenous group on really any topic. MT15 can attest, we probably collective spent 10 hour of our lives debating the origins of covid on this board. You can look through the current Israel thread, and find a huge range of opinions. It's been one of the spiciest threads since the board's migration.

I also hate the MSM comments in general. Conservatives, like yourself, and yes that's what you are should be quiet about lapping up whatever MSM tells you. It provides nothing other then to try an denigrate. I should start clapping back everytime you, or Farb make that comment with facts. The facts are: Conseratives = old, and white, Fox News = Old, and White, Fox News = MSM. Conservatives are much more single sourced in their opinions. You are what you hate.

 

[bdb13]

Well when I'm called a troll, an idiot, a Russian supporter, propagandist, etc constantly its hard not to be condescending sometimes. How would you respond if people were constantly insulting you? How would you respond if someone called you out constantly for how you post while they ignore their friends here doing the exact same thing.

I'll certainly concede I've seen people go after you and level insults I find to be unnecessary and/or inappropriate.. but it also doesn't just happen in a vacuum imo and as the saying goes, styles make fights and you're a brawler as well (also just saying, I truly have difficulty a lot of the time following your posts that contain Tweets.. it's just hard for me to piece together when it's a snippet from this here in this Tweet, snippet from this in another one).

I'm not able to respond to everyone or every post when it might be 8 to 10 different people replying to my posts. Also, if someone constantly insults me I'm probably ignoring or not replying to their post.

You can disagree, but I feel that I am respectful towards you by-and-large. I know I've had a post or two that were less so and I'll apologize for that now because I don't like operating like that and can admit when I'm wrong but the posts in here of mine I'm thinking about weren't personally disrespectful towards you and were just expressive of my thoughts on everything.

I've seen the pattern here over the years. If someone supports Trump or supported any of his policies they will berate you until you admit they are right about Trump. If you don't then you are on their enemies list and then it's repeated insults.

Personally everything for me changed with Trump post-election 2020. Didn't like him before obviously but I found most everything that transpired there to be horrific on an entirely different level. I know you disagree with the characterization, but the man facilitated a terrorist attack in his attempt to stay in power and that's just so different than anything else I've ever seen.