Impeachment Round Two (3 Viewers)

[Yggdrasill]

I am in the camp that Trump must -not should- be impeached. If not this President, for this behavior, then what bar would have to be cleared to merit impeachment?

Impeachment not only sends a signal to the country and the world that fomenting a coup is unacceptable and will be punished, but it also removes much of the threat Trump could pose going forward as, I understand it, he would lose his pension, his access to daily security briefings, free medical care and other amenities and benefits afforded to former Presidents. If impeached, he would not meet the definition of a Former President under the Former Presidents Act. I don't think it is clear whether he would continue to receive Secret Service protection.

 

[DaveXA]

That’s a fine ‘in theory’ position
But you don’t think the shows of violence and the threats of lethal reactions don’t change the practical calculus a bit?

I think it does to some degree. Enough to justify a secret ballot? Seems debatable to me. That said, if a secret ballot leads to a better chance of a conviction, I'm all for it.

Also, the secret ballot I'm seeing isn't really secret in that the votes are eventually made public for the record. They aren't permanently secret. So I'm not sure that calculus changes much. If it's permanently secret, then I'm inclined to agree.

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

I mean even still, I’m sure there are quite a few rabidly Trump lawyers who would gladly come to his defense. Or those who would do it just for the notoriety. In either case, they may even do it pro bono. Not to imply these are great legal minds, of course.

When the outcome is all but certain it doesn't necessarily matter who -- or even if anyone -- defends him. I don't think they will come anywhere near the 16-18 or so GOP votes it will take. Best case scenario you have Romney, Murkowski, Collins, Sasse and Toomey. Maybe Portman and Burr since they are retiring.

 

[wardorican]

A third now.

Counsel agrees that they have an idiot for a client.

 

[nolaspe]

This should be fun...

 

[FullMonte]

This should be fun...

I'm not at all understanding what he is saying. Is he trying to imply that the FBI will testify that Trump did nothing wrong in relation to the capitol riots/insurrection/rebellion?

 

[wardorican]

I'm not at all understanding what he is saying. Is he trying to imply that the FBI will testify that Trump did nothing wrong in relation to the capitol riots/insurrection/rebellion?

He is implying that the people who stormed the capitol had that planned ahead, not as a reaction to Trump's speech that day. Of course, his months long "stop the steal" posts would still be in play.

They would also turn the focus on how unprepared Capitol security was. Which also could turn into a "why didnt Trump authorize the National Guard deployment?" Or any other emergency action.

 

[Richard]

The Democrats overplayed their hand. With the national outrage over the Capitol riots, they had public sentiment going for them. So the threat of impeachment was necessary and certainly warranted. However, the offer should have been made before Trump even left office to have him censured and prohibited from holding public office again. Their goals would have been achieved, the nation would have been spared the possibility of another Trump run and Biden would have started his term without the circus of the impeachment trial. Now, Republicans in fear of Trump and facing the loss of their jobs will vote to acquit Trump. The threat of another Trump run will hang over the country like a dark cloud and he will have a legitimate fundraising source to help him stave off bankruptcy. Amazing that none of the top Democrats could see it.

 

[MT15]

Richard, I’m under the impression that without an impeachment conviction there is no mechanism to prevent him from holding future federal office. Do you know if that’s true?

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

The Democrats overplayed their hand. With the national outrage over the Capitol riots, they had public sentiment going for them. So the threat of impeachment was necessary and certainly warranted. However, the offer should have been made before Trump even left office to have him censured and prohibited from holding public office again. Their goals would have been achieved, the nation would have been spared the possibility of another Trump run and Biden would have started his term without the circus of the impeachment trial. Now, Republicans in fear of Trump and facing the loss of their jobs will vote to acquit Trump. The threat of another Trump run will hang over the country like a dark cloud and he will have a legitimate fundraising source to help him stave off bankruptcy. Amazing that none of the top Democrats could see it.

not sure about this
i actually think/hope the impeachment is just the first step in a long process of holding undemocratic practices to account

 

[Richard]

Richard, I’m under the impression that without an impeachment conviction there is no mechanism to prevent him from holding future federal office. Do you know if that’s true?

If I am not mistaken, they have the power to include that as part of the censure. I could be wrong.

 

[Richard]

not sure about this
i actually think/hope the impeachment is just the first step in a long process of holding undemocratic practices to account

You would hope. However, no one is held to account if the process is unsuccessful. Trump escapes conviction in a second impeachment trial and he has a springboard for more foolishness. His supporters will claim victory and they would be right, considering Trump feels no remorse or shame for his actions. To be held to account, Trump would need to face real world consequences for his actions, not just temporary political fallout. Failure to be convicted by the Senate will further embolden him and make him feel more invincible. That's why a negotiated censure and accompanying ban from holding office could have a much greater impact than a failed impeachment.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

If I am not mistaken, they have the power to include that as part of the censure. I could be wrong.

I've heard conflicting information on that.

Either way, I think I agree with you. I see the other side too, but I think the quicker we can move on (.org) from him the better. I'm all for a Congressional Panel to investigate what led up to it and the security failures. We should get a 9/11 style report. However, with his ability to communicate taken away and no more bully pulpit he's a deposed wanna-be king. The faster we change the conversation from Trump to policy the quicker we can move back to our normal level of broken government.

This impeachment is allowing him to still suck the oxygen out of the room and allowing his cowardly sycophants like Graham to keep the focus on him. You're not getting a conviction anyway.

 

[FullMonte]

Either way, I think I agree with you. I see the other side too, but I think the quicker we can move on (.org) from him the better. I'm all for a Congressional Panel to investigate what led up to it and the security failures. We should get a 9/11 style report. However, with his ability to communicate taken away and no more bully pulpit he's a deposed wanna-be king. The faster we change the conversation from Trump to policy the quicker we can move back to our normal level of broken government.

I agree with that. I think that's a better solution than impeachment. I think a full investigation, with multiple witnesses testifying, Trump subpoenaed to testify, and a full out report explaining everything that led up to it would be better.

An impeachment that doesn't result in a conviction will become proof that Trump was innocent in the eyes of his supporters. A report, with public witness testimony to support it, showing everything that Trump did wrong leading up to the riots is cannon fodder if he tries to run again.

 

[MT15]

I think that the impeachment had to happen, I don’t think censure is severe enough. This was a sustained deliberate effort to overturn the will of the people as expressed by a certified federal election. It went on for two months. Censure just doesn’t cover that. This is exactly what impeachment is designed for.

Although if he could be barred from future positions in government on censure, I might reconsider. I am pretty sure I read that it isn’t possible though I could be mistaken.

Now, if the Republicans vote to acquit, which I am not ready to give up hope just yet, but if they do acquit, then I would be all for the AG taking a serious look at any possible criminal charges for Trump, Rudy, Don Jr, et al. Necessary in any case, but essential if he is acquitted.

 

[Taurus]

I agree with that. I think that's a better solution than impeachment. I think a full investigation, with multiple witnesses testifying, Trump subpoenaed to testify, and a full out report explaining everything that led up to it would be better.

An impeachment that doesn't result in a conviction will become proof that Trump was innocent in the eyes of his supporters. A report, with public witness testimony to support it, showing everything that Trump did wrong leading up to the riots is cannon fodder if he tries to run again.

Why not both?

The Repubs are going to acquit, that's a foregone conclusion. However, this time around, the Dems can compel witnesses.
I really, really want Trump on the stand, under oath.

Perjury is a felony.

 

[bdb13]

This impeachment is allowing him to still suck the oxygen out of the room and allowing his cowardly sycophants like Graham to keep the focus on him. You're not getting a conviction anyway.

Yeah, my dad made the same point and I think I agree. It's certainly no one situation now for the Democrats.. and while I was fired up as shirt after the insurrection and wanted him impeached too, seems like someone on the Democratic side should have had a better grasp on how this may play out.

 

[Saintamaniac]

You would hope. However, no one is held to account if the process is unsuccessful. Trump escapes conviction in a second impeachment trial and he has a springboard for more foolishness. His supporters will claim victory and they would be right, considering Trump feels no remorse or shame for his actions. To be held to account, Trump would need to face real world consequences for his actions, not just temporary political fallout. Failure to be convicted by the Senate will further embolden him and make him feel more invincible. That's why a negotiated censure and accompanying ban from holding office could have a much greater impact than a failed impeachment.

This is the Democratic party prior to Trump, prior to rank hypocrisy and prior to openly help a criminal avoid conviction. Witnesses will be called and the country and the world will now be able to see Republicans for what they are if they choose to vote to acquit Trump in the face of overwhelming evidence from eyewitnesses to government agencies that will testify that trump indeed did what he is charge of having done. There will be 0 farks given for anything that trump supporters believe or claim. Trump might do trump after the rethuglicans vote to acquit but that hidden self pardon will be challenged in court once the indictments start rolling in and he will be convicted of at least one felony.

 

[Maxp]

This is the Democratic party prior to Trump, prior to rank hypocrisy and prior to openly help a criminal avoid conviction. Witnesses will be called and the country and the world will now be able to see Republicans for what they are if they choose to vote to acquit Trump in the face of overwhelming evidence from eyewitnesses to government agencies that will testify that trump indeed did what he is charge of having done. There will be 0 farks given for anything that trump supporters believe or claim. Trump might do trump after the rethuglicans vote to acquit but that hidden self pardon will be challenged in court once the indictments start rolling in and he will be convicted of at least one felony.

I'd really like to believe that, but if history is any indication of the future the Dems will screw this up.