General Election 2024 Harris vs Trump (8 Viewers)

[SamAndreas]

Today it begins, Kamala has reached the point that she's the Democratic Party nominee:

There's video from today. this link has video from her first public appearance since Biden endorsed her:

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/22/live-updates-harris-democrats-biden-drops-out-trump-campaign.html

She spent yesterday on the telephone for most of the day. I read that yesterday that she called the party leaders in all 50 states. That would take me three days.

She's renamed her YouTube channel, that's the where to go for video: https://www.youtube.com/@kamalaharris

This is her video on her channel from two hours ago:



To play it, start it, and then move it up to 5:47. This was one of those live videos which don't start at zero.

I've named this thread General Election 2024 Harris vs Trump

Trump needs an introduction post as well, a MAGA suporter ought to write it: @Farb, @SaintForLife , @Others, calling for someone to please introduce your GOP candidate for this 2024 general election thread.

 

[MT15]

The Constitution requires a super majority in both Houses of Congress and a super majority among the states to pass an amendment. It’s an incredibly difficult thing to do.

I don’t think there is sufficient support in either house to pass such an amendment. So my answer to you is the Constitution.

Will the Constitution physically stop him? You’re not thinking clearly. This is a man who said “So?” when he was informed that the mob was looking for Pence and chanting “Hang Mike Pence”.

I didn’t know the Constitution had any actual enforcement mechanism. Guess which branch enforces fhe Constitution and who controls that branch.

What will it take for you to wake up?

 

[TampaJoe]

Partly because it’s a cult of personality and partly because of people being in denial of what he is capable of. That should hit home with you, btw.

What is amusing to me is that so many folks on the left think everyone on the right lacks the ability to make reasoned and rational decisions.

Let’s assume for the sake of argument that your fellow citizens on the right as well as all those folks in the center and some left of center folks who crossed over and voted for Trump, let’s assume they are sensible rational people capable of making reaso

Will the Constitution physically stop him? You’re not thinking clearly. This is a man who said “So?” when he was informed that the mob was looking for Pence and chanting “Hang Mike Pence”.

I didn’t know the Constitution had any actual enforcement mechanism. Guess which branch enforces fhe Constitution and who controls that branch.

What will it take for you to wake up?

So tell me how you think this all goes down. Walk me thru it.

 

[MT15]

So tell me how you think this all goes down. Walk me thru it.

I think he just declares an emergency, orders the military up, and carries out his mass deportations. The only other time this happened in our history we know there were US citizens deported along with the undocumented. What makes you think he will carry this out in any sort of reasonable fashion? His cult is frothing at the mouth for this. It will be a complete disaster. Do you think the military, untrained in this sort of thing, will be able to accurately determine citizenship status? I don’t. They will just throw any brown Spanish-speaking person in a camp, to start. What makes you think he won’t do this? He and his people are promising they will do this.

I think he writes an executive order canceling the legal status for Haitians, and anyone else he can think of that he wants gone. I just read an article tonight that some Haitians are already leaving Springfield and moving to blue states and/or larger cities where they think they may be more protected. The town will once again face a labor shortage and some factories will be adversely affected. These folks have been living there for years and years, working hard with legal status. They have children who are US citizens. What happens to them?

As for your sensible rational voter argument - the proof is in the pudding. Sensible rational people don’t vote for a criminal with autocratic tendencies who also happens to be nearly illiterate and a malignant narcissist. So yeah, by definition, they made a bad decision. Whether it’s due to cult-like allegiance, or being ignorant of reality - same result. Whether they were ignorant of reality because they listen to propaganda, or because they just don’t pay attention - same result.

What makes you think this administration won’t do what they are promising to do? Especially since the kind of people - principled conservatives like Mattis, Kelly, Coates, Pence, etc. - who stopped his worst impulses last time will not be around this time?

I hope you are right. I hope I am wrong. I just don’t see any reason to be hopeful though. Not right now. You and everyone else are acting like Trump has some sweeping mandate. He didn’t get 50% of the popular vote. He was elected by a bunch of young men who basically voted for Trump and nobody else. Part of the cult.

 

[MT15]

Yeah, they’re coming for everything. This I don’t think they can do. He cannot end social safety nets by Executive Order, unlike his mass deportations.

 

[MT15]

Looks like I wrote all that for nothing - as the NYT has an article detailing it. Salient quotes. Joe - please read the bolded part. They are going to just eliminate birthright citizenship by withholding proof of citizenship. Without proof of citizenship - those people get deported.

“In interviews with The New York Times during the Republican primary campaign, described in an article published in November 2023, Mr. Trump’s top immigration policy adviser, Stephen Miller, said that military funds would be used to build “vast holding facilities that would function as staging centers” for immigrants as their cases progressed and they waited to be flown to other countries.”

“Mr. Trump’s team said it had developed a multifaceted plan to significantly increase the number of deportations, which it thought could be accomplished without new legislation from Congress, although it anticipated legal challenges.

Other elements of the team’s plan include bolstering the ranks of ICE officers with law enforcement officials who would be temporarily reassigned from other agencies, and with state National Guardsmen and federal troops activated to enforce the law on domestic soil under the Insurrection Act.

The team also plans to expand a form of due-process-free expulsions known as expedited removal, which is currently used near the border for recent arrivals, to people living across the interior of the country who cannot prove they have been in the United States for more than two years.

And the team plans to stop issuing citizenship-affirming documents, like passports and Social Security cards, to infants born on domestic soil to undocumented migrant parents in a bid to end birthright citizenship.”

 

[TampaJoe]

I think he just declares an emergency, orders the military up, and carries out his mass deportations. The only other time this happened in our history we know there were US citizens deported along with the undocumented. What makes you think he will carry this out in any sort of reasonable fashion? His cult is frothing at the mouth for this. It will be a complete disaster. Do you think the military, untrained in this sort of thing, will be able to accurately determine citizenship status? I don’t. They will just throw any brown Spanish-speaking person in a camp, to start. What makes you think he won’t do this? He and his people are promising they will do this.

I think he writes an executive order canceling the legal status for Haitians, and anyone else he can think of that he wants gone. I just read an article tonight that some Haitians are already leaving Springfield and moving to blue states and/or larger cities where they think they may be more protected. The town will once again face a labor shortage and some factories will be adversely affected. These folks have been living there for years and years, working hard with legal status. They have children who are US citizens. What happens to them?

As for your sensible rational voter argument - the proof is in the pudding. Sensible rational people don’t vote for a criminal with autocratic tendencies who also happens to be nearly illiterate and a malignant narcissist. So yeah, by definition, they made a bad decision. Whether it’s due to cult-like allegiance, or being ignorant of reality - same result. Whether they were ignorant of reality because they listen to propaganda, or because they just don’t pay attention - same result.

What makes you think this administration won’t do what they are promising to do? Especially since the kind of people - principled conservatives like Mattis, Kelly, Coates, Pence, etc. - who stopped his worst impulses last time will not be around this time?

I hope you are right. I hope I am wrong. I just don’t see any reason to be hopeful though. Not right now. You and everyone else are acting like Trump has some sweeping mandate. He didn’t get 50% of the popular vote. He was elected by a bunch of young men who basically voted for Trump and nobody else. Part of the cult.

Show me a post where I said he had a mandate. I haven’t seen a mandate in the last three elections and the winning side always claimed they had one.

You forget that these deportations will most certainly be challenged in court. And no I don’t believe Conservatives or Republicans belong to a cult because they didn’t vote for Harris. The truth is they don’t trust liberal progressives anymore than you trust them. So no, they aren’t gonna vote for a liberal progressive because you think Trump is Hitler. They were voting their pocketbooks and their safety and security among other things. You are missing it.

I highly doubt should a court of legal jurisdiction place a hold on deportations pending a review of the Constitutionality of said deportation orders, that the military or law enforcement or state and local officials will ignore a lawful court order.

I get you are skeptical. I would feel the same if Harris and the Dems had the Executive and the Congress. We have a Constitution and a set of laws that do work. As long as people follow them we will be alright. It has become somewhat fashionable to ignore those Federal Laws with which one doesn’t quite agree. That needs to come to an end otherwise no one out of power will trust the system.

 

[coldseat]

And the team plans to stop issuing citizenship-affirming documents, like passports and Social Security cards, to infants born on domestic soil to undocumented migrant parents in a bid to end birthright citizenship.”

The federal government has no control of birth certificates though. Those are issued by the states and automatically done when a person is born. So I'm not seeing how that can really work. Even if they stop issuing social security cards, that would only really create a backlog until the next administration, I'd assume.

Doesn't mean they won't try. They love wasting government resources to be a xenophobic as possible. They'll build those camps though and waste tons of tax payer money. Not to mention all of the abuses that are going to happen in those places.

 

[TampaJoe]

Looks like I wrote all that for nothing - as the NYT has an article detailing it. Salient quotes. Joe - please read the bolded part. They are going to just eliminate birthright citizenship by withholding proof of citizenship. Without proof of citizenship - those people get deported.

“In interviews with The New York Times during the Republican primary campaign, described in an article published in November 2023, Mr. Trump’s top immigration policy adviser, Stephen Miller, said that military funds would be used to build “vast holding facilities that would function as staging centers” for immigrants as their cases progressed and they waited to be flown to other countries.”

“Mr. Trump’s team said it had developed a multifaceted plan to significantly increase the number of deportations, which it thought could be accomplished without new legislation from Congress, although it anticipated legal challenges.

Other elements of the team’s plan include bolstering the ranks of ICE officers with law enforcement officials who would be temporarily reassigned from other agencies, and with state National Guardsmen and federal troops activated to enforce the law on domestic soil under the Insurrection Act.

The team also plans to expand a form of due-process-free expulsions known as expedited removal, which is currently used near the border for recent arrivals, to people living across the interior of the country who cannot prove they have been in the United States for more than two years.

And the team plans to stop issuing citizenship-affirming documents, like passports and Social Security cards, to infants born on domestic soil to undocumented migrant parents in a bid to end birthright citizenship.”

I did read your post esp the bolded part, as I said and this article mentions, this will be challenged in court and I have no doubt the bolded part would be and will be found to violate the Constitution.

I am only basing this on what has been reported in this article. I don’t know how accurate it is.

 

[Sendai]

I did read your post esp the bolded part, as I said and this article mentions, this will be challenged in court and I have no doubt the bolded part would be and will be found to violate the Constitution.

I am only basing this on what has been reported in this article. I don’t know how accurate it is.

“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

Obviously unconstitutional.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Do I really need to get into why I think Trump was not the best the GOP has to offer?

I didn’t think Kamala was your best Dem candidate and clearly many Dems didn’t think so either. For various reasons. For me she was part of an administration that 70 percent of the nation thought was on the wrong track and when asked she couldn’t think of anything she would have done differently. I don’t agree with her on immigration, on national security, on economics. She is an CA progressive and I’m a conservative. I would prefer a more moderate Dem center left candidate. But that’s me. That’s my opinion. I don’t think she ran the best campaign and I don’t think she connected as well as you think. Your mileage may vary.

But the election is over. The results are in. I highly doubt Kamala will make another run for POTUS and if she did I doubt she would win the nomination.

I don’t compare Harris to Trump. I judge each as to their merits. If I don’t believe either one is fit for office IMV then I don’t vote for them. I don’t vote for someone because they are the best of the worst.

What makes Kamala unfit for office and what makes Trump unfit for office?

 

[TampaJoe]

What makes Kamala unfit for office and what makes Trump unfit for office?

They both are legally qualified under the Comstitution. It is my personal opinion that neither candidate was qualified in my view to hold the highest office in the land and to be the leader of the free world. I have answered your question previously. It’s my opinion. You don’t have to agree. But I’m not going to repeat myself over and over again on the same question.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I did read your post esp the bolded part, as I said and this article mentions, this will be challenged in court and I have no doubt the bolded part would be and will be found to violate the Constitution.

I am only basing this on what has been reported in this article. I don’t know how accurate it is.

Which do you think is better for democracy, electing someone with legal proposals or electing someone with illegal proposals and hoping that the courts side against them?

 

[cuddlemonkey]

They both are legally qualified under the Comstitution. It is my personal opinion that neither candidate was qualified in my view to hold the highest office in the land and to be the leader of the free world. I have answered your question previously. It’s my opinion. You don’t have to agree. But I’m not going to repeat myself over and over again on the same question.

No you haven't. You've said why you think neither candidate was the best the respective parties could have put forward. I am asking you why you think they are unfit to hold office.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I won’t debate with you that Trump isn’t fit for the job. We agree on that. I don’t want a hat or a watch or sneakers with his name on them. I wouldn’t want my kids getting Huckabee’s propaganda book nor would I want Trumps coffee table book in my house. Hawking all that crap is below the office. I’m not a big fan of his business style nor how he manages and deals with his staff. No reputable school in this country teaches Trump Management. He is an arse. Major league arse and he’s proud of it. But he’s not the second coming of Hitler and he is not a threat to Democracy in my view. So all the ads and the claims to the contrary were wasted on much of the country because they didn’t buy into the premise.

I wasn’t gonna vote for Harris anyway but I wasn’t given a reason to vote for her. Much of the air space was taken with “Vote for her cause he is a Hitler or a threat to Democracy”. If one doesn’t buy into that rhetoric there has to be something else to motivate people to vote for her. It wasn’t there IMV.

You didn't pay attention, then. That's your fault.

 

[MT15]

Show me a post where I said he had a mandate.

I will take your word for it - apologies. Most people are acting like he has a mandate though, which he doesn’t. Dem policies on referendums in most states won, as did Dem incumbent Senators for the most part. Trump had a group of people who voted for him and nobody else. That’s cult-like whether you like it or not.

So no, they aren’t gonna vote for a liberal progressive because you think Trump is Hitler.

And please extend to me the same courtesy. I haven’t said Trump is Hitler. He is being compared to Hitler, as he should be, due to his rhetoric which mirrors Hitler. Maybe you think it isn’t a problem for a politician to mimic Hitler? I think it’s a problem which should be pointed out.

 

[MT15]

“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

Obviously unconstitutional.

And, like I said and nobody replies - who will enforce it? The courts can rule it is unconstitutional, but it will be appealed and if the court doesn’t stay the deportations they will proceed apace. Even if they get a stay, who will enforce it? Once these US citizens are deported, then what?

Trump has made it abundantly clear - unless he is surrounded by people who will check him, he will not care what the courts say. Nobody in this term will be present who is inclined to check him.

They are floating loyalty oaths for the military brass, for crying out loud. They intend to create a commission of retired military who are MAGA to weed out officers who won’t sign it. Again most likely unconstitutional, but who will enforce it?

 

[MT15]

Those are issued by the states and automatically done when a person is born.

I could foresee deep red states stopping birth certificates in this case. If Trump wants it, they would do it. And again, the AGs in some of these states are lawless, just like Trump. The one in my state was censured 2x by whatever his ethics board is. Big deal - didn’t stop him from doing anything he wanted. Won’t slow him down in the future, either, IMO.

 

[Optimus Prime]

But that wasn’t the question.

Why don’t think such a flawed candidate with all the baggage he carries won?

“The worst Republican is better than the best Democrat”

“Flawed” is doing a lot of heavy lifting

Donald Trump is far beyond merely being flawed

He is singularly, seriously and dangerously unfit and unworthy to be president of the United States

The people he is nominating are seriously unfit for their appointments

I’ve said before first and foremost I blame the people who voted for him so they are ones who need to justify why they did so

And when someone has as much baggage and red flags as Trump does “they were mean when they called him a Nazi!” isn’t a good enough reason