General Election 2024 Harris vs Trump (9 Viewers)

[SamAndreas]

Today it begins, Kamala has reached the point that she's the Democratic Party nominee:

There's video from today. this link has video from her first public appearance since Biden endorsed her:

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/22/live-updates-harris-democrats-biden-drops-out-trump-campaign.html

She spent yesterday on the telephone for most of the day. I read that yesterday that she called the party leaders in all 50 states. That would take me three days.

She's renamed her YouTube channel, that's the where to go for video: https://www.youtube.com/@kamalaharris

This is her video on her channel from two hours ago:



To play it, start it, and then move it up to 5:47. This was one of those live videos which don't start at zero.

I've named this thread General Election 2024 Harris vs Trump

Trump needs an introduction post as well, a MAGA suporter ought to write it: @Farb, @SaintForLife , @Others, calling for someone to please introduce your GOP candidate for this 2024 general election thread.

 

[TampaJoe]

I don't believe it was primarily about race but rather about gender.

We’ve observed a noticeable movement among a significant group of men longing for a return to the traditional family structure, where the man is the head of the household.

Over the past 20 years, the traditional role of men has come under pressure. Women are excelling academically, often surpassing men, and increasingly occupying leadership roles that were once predominantly male domains. For some men, especially those who struggle in their careers, it can be challenging to accept a secondary role—not only in the workplace but also at home, particularly if their wife’s career is more successful.

It’s important to remember that it wasn’t so long ago that women couldn’t independently sign a loan or contract without their husband’s co-signature. Some men still hold onto the belief that a woman’s primary role should be as a homemaker.

This may help explain why African American and Hispanic men, in particular, leaned toward Trump over Harris.

Interesting. If that is true, do you think it’s some kind of deep seated belief or maybe a fear of being marginalized?

 

[Optimus Prime]

People didn't vote for Harris because they hated her views on trans people

We already elected a black POTUS. Twice. We elect women to serve all across the country in a variety of roles.

This makes zero sense

People didn't vote for Harris because the blame the Biden admin for the state of the economy

We already elected a black POTUS. Twice. We elect women to serve all across the country in a variety of roles.

This makes zero sense

People didn't vote for Harris because of her race and/or gender

We already elected a black POTUS. Twice. We elect women to serve all across the country in a variety of roles.

Now this makes sense

And the only sense it makes is, it can't possibly be racism or sexism because we voted for a black president, we voted for women

And when pushed on that being the only reason to make that statement you deny that what you meant. When asked if that's not what you meant, what did you mean be that statement you try to crabwalk with these statements

I meant we already elected a black President twice. Exactly. Nothing more. Nothing less.

My statement was simple and direct. When questioned about it, I clearly stated that I meant nothing more than what I clearly stated in plain English. I don’t know how much more clarity or context I can add.

Or with some version of "I can't control what other people think" even though they are thinking the most obvious thing to think

At this point you are either a fool or think we are

 

[Optimus Prime]

I don't believe it was primarily about race but rather about gender.

We’ve observed a noticeable movement among a significant group of men longing for a return to the traditional family structure, where the man is the head of the household.

Over the past 20 years, the traditional role of men has come under pressure. Women are excelling academically, often surpassing men, and increasingly occupying leadership roles that were once predominantly male domains. For some men, especially those who struggle in their careers, it can be challenging to accept a secondary role—not only in the workplace but also at home, particularly if their wife’s career is more successful.

It’s important to remember that it wasn’t so long ago that women couldn’t independently sign a loan or contract without their husband’s co-signature. Some men still hold onto the belief that a woman’s primary role should be as a homemaker.

This may help explain why African American and Hispanic men, in particular, leaned toward Trump over Harris.

Very interesting article. Posted on EE also
=================

The stories come around with horrible frequency. The TV presenter of a certain age who prances around naked with nothing but a sock on his c*ck or who grabs the head of a kneeling production assistant who is cleaning his trousers, and thrusts his groin towards her face. The sports presenter who is sacked for inappropriate behaviour. The radio DJ who is accused of sexual assault.

And yes, we understand, it’s all about power imbalances. The “talent” is venerated, the power goes to the man’s head, it makes him feel invincible, he believes he has impunity. He knows his employers can’t afford to lose him.

But hang on a minute. Fiona Bruce is an irreplaceable TV star. Mishal Husain is a brilliant radio interviewer. Mel Giedroyc is a much-loved TV host. Yet can you imagine Bruce stripping off in front of her crew, with only tassels to hide her nipples? Or Mishal Husain making sexualised comments to her researchers? Or Giedroyc, back in her Bake Off days, thrusting her groin at a young man wiping cake mixture off her trousers?

They too hold the power imbalances. Their talent is venerated, but the power doesn’t go to their heads. They don’t feel invincible and they don’t behave with impunity. I saw Giedroyc host a charity event earlier this week and she was the model of good manners and humility, taking pains to thank participants behind the scenes as well as at the podium.

So once you flip it around, the excuses fall away. And we are left with only one explanation: the power imbalance between men and women. However far we think we have progressed towards gender equality, men are still much more likely than women to feel a sense of entitlement and superiority. And the worst of them will act on it (sometimes hurting other men as well as hurting women).

Not all men, of course. Plenty of men are humble, respectful and utterly delightful. We love having these men as colleagues, friends or romantic partners. But they are the ones who have taken pains to question the societal forces that have bestowed power and authority on men at the expense of equally competent women.

These forces start so young. As early as three, boys will interrupt girls of their age more than boys. By the age of six, both boys and girls believe that boys are more likely to be “really, really smart”, even though they know that girls are already doing better at school. How does this sense of male superiority affect children so early?

Well, one of the most depressing studies I found when researching my book, The Authority Gap, asked British parents to estimate their children’s IQs. They put their sons, on average, at 115 and their daughters at only 107, even though girls tend to develop earlier than boys, have a bigger vocabulary, and outperform boys academically from reception to PhD.

So boys grow up subliminally absorbing this mistaken notion that they are cleverer than girls, and girls grow up absorbing it too. No wonder that, when the same researchers asked adult men and women to estimate their own IQ, men on average said it was 110, and women, only 105. Yet the IQ distribution is identical between the genders, except at the extreme ends of the bell curve.

This sense of male superiority and entitlement is fostered at school too. Professor Allyson Julé studied classroom interactions and found that teachers repeat boys’ comments as recognition of their contributions nine times more than girls’, address questions much more to boys than to girls, and praise boys more for their answers. As a result, boys are rewarded for speaking up and girls for being quiet and well-behaved. Boys learn to believe their views are more important than girls’.

As other educational researchers, David and Myra Sadker, put it: “Girls quickly learn to smile, work quietly, be neat, defer to boys and talk only when spoken to … Little wonder that so many girls lose their voice, confidence and ambition, a problem likely to haunt them in adulthood.”

These boosts to boys’ self-esteem can also lead to overconfidence, which is much more common in boys and men. One academic paper, unusually entitled Bullshitters. Who are they and what do we know about their lives?, studied 40,000 15-year-olds in nine countries. They were given a list of 16 mathematical concepts and asked to rate their knowledge of them, from “never heard of it” to “know it well, understand the concept”.

Unbeknown to the teenagers, the researchers had inserted three fake concepts – ‘subjunctive scaling’, ‘declarative fraction’ and ‘proper number’ – into the list. In all nine countries, boys were much more likely than girls to claim that they knew and understood the fake concepts. What’s more, the bullshirtters believed their own bullshirt. They thought they were better at maths than they were.............

Why do some men behave badly? I think I have the answer

From an early age boys are treated as though they are smarter and more talented than girls. It can lead to a damaging overconfidence

www.theguardian.com

 

[Dragon]

Interesting. If that is true, do you think it’s some kind of deep seated belief or maybe a fear of being marginalized?

I think it is mostly cultural. And that includes upbringing and the way society as a whole look on the roles of women and men. I really like the article Optimus posted.

The US is far more conservative than my native Denmark where it is not only common but actually expected, that men go on paternaty leave as well as the mothers (by law women can take the first 6 months and the fathers the following 6 months paid mater/paternity leave). But even here we still have men who long for the "old days"

But is is also psycological. People want to be "better" than someone. Could be race, gender whatever. They just don't want to be at the bottom and if they can point to someone less important or valuable than themselves it makes them feel better about themselves Having their wifes stay at home and looking after the house instead of working, grants the husband power over the way the family works and improve his selfesteem and make it easier to accept that he may have a job with very little exsteem.

With that worldview, it may be very difficult for some to accept a woman in the highest office of the land. They instinctively perceive her as less competent than any male candidate, regardless of her qualifications or accomplishments.

 

[TampaJoe]

People didn't vote for Harris because they hated her views on trans people



This makes zero sense

People didn't vote for Harris because the blame the Biden admin for the state of the economy



This makes zero sense

People didn't vote for Harris because of her race and/or gender



Now this makes sense

And the only sense it makes is, it can't possibly be racism or sexism because we voted for a black president, we voted for women

And when pushed on that being the only reason to make that statement you deny that what you meant. When asked if that's not what you meant, what did you mean be that statement you try to crabwalk with these statements





Or with some version of "I can't control what other people think" even though they are thinking the most obvious thing to think

At this point you are either a fool or think we are

Obviously a majority of people in this country aren’t afraid to vote for a person of color. Also quite obviously they aren’t afraid to vote for women. We have been doing it for years. That’s not to say that racism or sexism is completely eradicated in this country. Only a fool would think such a thing. If that includes you then so be it.

Biden was losing the same demographics on the same issues. Harris closed part of that gap but obviously not by enough. So obviously it wasn’t all race or gender.

I believe and I think exit polling bears this out that people blamed this administration for the economy, the border and safety and security issues such as crime among other issues. Maybe that was fair. Maybe not.

If you think it was all about race and gender, then don’t change a thing and see how that works out next time. Maybe it will work next time through. Who knows.

 

[Dragon]

Obviously a majority of people in this country aren’t afraid to vote for a person of color. Also quite obviously they aren’t afraid to vote for women. We have been doing it for years. That’s not to say that racism or sexism is completely eradicated in this country. Only a fool would think such a thing. If that includes you then so be it.

Biden was losing the same demographics on the same issues. Harris closed part of that gap but obviously not by enough. So obviously it wasn’t all race or gender.

I believe and I think exit polling bears this out that people blamed this administration for the economy, the border and safety and security issues such as crime among other issues. Maybe that was fair. Maybe not.

If you think it was all about race and gender, then don’t change a thing and see how that works out next time. Maybe it will work next time through. Who knows.

Wrong. Hate has historically been a more effective motivator than its opposite.

Trump capitalized on this by promising revenge against "the system." Everyone with a grievance saw themselves reflected in him. People who blamed their lack of success on those with better education, or on individuals they believed secured jobs due to gender, ethnicity, or immigration status, found a champion in Trump. It has always been easier to scapegoat others for personal misfortunes than to confront one’s own shortcomings. Trump offered a clear target for their frustrations and promised to punish those they held responsible.

Every dictator in history has followed a similar playbook. Hitler scapegoated the Jews. Stalin and Pol Pot targeted intellectuals and teachers. Khomeini blamed women, while Franco persecuted Basques, Catalans, and other regional nationalists, along with intellectuals and educators.

 

[TampaJoe]

I think it is mostly cultural. And that includes upbringing and the way society as a whole look on the roles of women and men. I really like the article Optimus posted.

The US is far more conservative than my native Denmark where it is not only common but actually expected, that men go on paternaty leave as well as the mothers (by law women can take the first 6 months and the fathers the following 6 months paid mater/paternity leave). But even here we still have men who long for the "old days"

But is is also psycological. People want to be "better" than someone. Could be race, gender whatever. They just don't want to be at the bottom and if they can point to someone less important or valuable than themselves it makes them feel better about themselves Having their wifes stay at home and looking after the house instead of working, grants the husband power over the way the family works and improve his selfesteem and make it easier to accept that he may have a job with very little exsteem.

With that worldview, it may be very difficult for some to accept a woman in the highest office of the land. They instinctively perceive her as less competent than any male candidate, regardless of her qualifications or accomplishments.

I think these attitudes change over time. That applies to race and gender and sexual preference. They don’t change overnight but they do change over time. It’s a marathon and not a sprint. We have come part way but there is still some distance to go.

I think Harris was impacted mostly by policy issues. Biden was already running behind in the polls on a number of issues. Had his opponent been someone without all the Trump baggage, I believe he would have been even further behind. So at least part of Harris problems were mostly Biden fatigue. He was an unpopular POTUS and she suffered by association. Had she gone thru a normal primary process and had time to distinguish herself as a separate candidate, things may have been different. Hard to say. She has expressed an interest in running in 2028 so who knows what that will look like.

 

[TampaJoe]

Wrong. Hate has historically been a more effective motivator than its opposite.

Trump capitalized on this by promising revenge against "the system." Everyone with a grievance saw themselves reflected in him. People who blamed their lack of success on those with better education, or on individuals they believed secured jobs due to gender, ethnicity, or immigration status, found a champion in Trump. It has always been easier to scapegoat others for personal misfortunes than to confront one’s own shortcomings. Trump offered a clear target for their frustrations and promised to punish those they held responsible.

Every dictator in history has followed a similar playbook. Hitler scapegoated the Jews. Stalin and Pol Pot targeted intellectuals and teachers. Khomeini blamed women, while Franco persecuted Basques, Catalans, and other regional nationalists, along with intellectuals and educators.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think both sides demonized the other. But I think the major reason Trump won was economic and security issues. People vote on pocketbook issues. But that’s my opinion. I think the exit polling bears this out.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Elon Musk spent over $250 million to help Trump get elected, new filings show

The FEC filings reveal big payments to his America PAC, the mysterious RBG PAC and other Republican candidates

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Dragon]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think both sides demonized the other. But I think the major reason Trump won was economic and security issues. People vote on pocketbook issues. But that’s my opinion. I think the exit polling bears this out.

Trump severely damaged the economy during his first term and raised the deficit more than any previous president. Have you forgotten the long lines of people waiting for food assistance during the pandemic or the tax cuts that overwhelmingly benefited the top 1%?

Security? For whom?

Trump has made it clear that he plans to weaponize the justice system more than any president before him. He has openly stated his intent to prosecute anyone who has spoken out against him, a blatant abuse of power that undermines democratic principles.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Elon Musk spent over $250 million to help Trump get elected, new filings show

The FEC filings reveal big payments to his America PAC, the mysterious RBG PAC and other Republican candidates

www.independent.co.uk

is that all? trump is a cheap sellout.

 

[TampaJoe]

Trump severely damaged the economy during his first term and raised the deficit more than any previous president. Have you forgotten the long lines of people waiting for food assistance during the pandemic or the tax cuts that overwhelmingly benefited the top 1%?

Security? For whom?

Trump has made it clear that he plans to weaponize the justice system more than any president before him. He has openly stated his intent to prosecute anyone who has spoken out against him, a blatant abuse of power that undermines democratic principles.

I have asked before but which pandemic policies did Dems oppose? I keep hearing how Trump screwed up the pandemic but as I remember Dems and Republicans both supported those policies and I can’t think of a single Trump pandemic policy that Biden reversed. Help me out with that. A big portion of the Trump deficit was pandemic related.

That said, we do need pay atttention to debt and deficit. It’s increased under every POTUS since Clinton.

As far as weaponizing the justice system. That’s already been done. It needs to stop. No President or government official should use government institutions as political weapons. It undermines confidence in government.

 

[Dragon]

I have asked before but which pandemic policies did Dems oppose? I keep hearing how Trump screwed up the pandemic but as I remember Dems and Republicans both supported those policies and I can’t think of a single Trump pandemic policy that Biden reversed. Help me out with that. A big portion of the Trump deficit was pandemic related.

That said, we do need pay atttention to debt and deficit. It’s increased under every POTUS since Clinton.

As far as weaponizing the justice system. That’s already been done. It needs to stop. No President or government official should use government institutions as political weapons. It undermines confidence in government.

The fact that Trump knew how serious the pandemic was for months while claiming it would just go away for starters. That is one of the major reasons for the US having such a bad respons to the pandemic.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...odward-he-knew-february-covid-19-was-n1239658


When you lie for months while having admitted on TAPE that you knew how bad the disease was, and not taking any actions to inform and protect the people you have sworn to serve until months later, then his lack of actions was a major reason for the very high amount of deaths in the US

 

[TampaJoe]

The fact that Trump knew how serious the pandemic was for months while claiming it would just go away for starters. That is one of the major reasons for the US having such a bad respons to the pandemic.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...odward-he-knew-february-covid-19-was-n1239658


When you lie for months while having admitted on TAPE that you knew how bad the disease was, and not taking any actions to inform and protect the people you have sworn to serve until months later, then his lack of actions was a major reason for the very high amount of deaths in the US

Fact is that nobody in the world was prepared for the pandemic. We now know that many of the measures we took to protect ourselves made little to no difference at all. The thing that did the most to bend the curve was the vaccine.

The things that did the most damage to the economy and to the personal well being of many of our citizens were due to all the restrictive policies that shut whole sectors of our economy down and sent people home for two years. Policies that were supported, at least initially, by leaders of both political parties.

Biden didn’t reverse a single Trump policy upon entering office. Not one. He reverse ton of border policies but he didn’t waste a single executive order reversing a Trump pandemic policy. In fact, his administration fought, tooth and nail, for every mandate and for every restrictive policy.

Personally I thought we over reacted in shutting down large sectors of our economy for extended periods. I understand the initial reaction but we knew early on who was at high risk and instead of targeting our resources at those people, we unsuccessfully tried to micro manage the behaviour of 320 million people, most of whom were not at risk or were at very low risk.

As far as lying for months, our “experts” knew early on that the masks available to most people were ineffective. They knew early on that the 6 foot rule was bunk and that ventilation was the key. And yet they said nothing.

There’s plenty of blame to go around relating to the pandemic. Plenty. Hopefully we can, at some time, step back and look realistically at lessons learned.

 

[Lapaz]

Trump severely damaged the economy during his first term and raised the deficit more than any previous president. Have you forgotten the long lines of people waiting for food assistance during the pandemic or the tax cuts that overwhelmingly benefited the top 1%?

Security? For whom?

Trump has made it clear that he plans to weaponize the justice system more than any president before him. He has openly stated his intent to prosecute anyone who has spoken out against him, a blatant abuse of power that undermines democratic principles.

I don't know whether Tampa believes the voters were right to blame Biden for the economy, but I think he is right that it was was one of the main reasons that people voted for Trump. They also said it was due to immigration and laughably for democracy. I think the reason that most people voted for Trump was irrational, and they weren't considering the long term damage that Trump's governance will cause.

 

[Lapaz]

Fact is that nobody in the world was prepared for the pandemic. We now know that many of the measures we took to protect ourselves made little to no difference at all. The thing that did the most to bend the curve was the vaccine.

The things that did the most damage to the economy and to the personal well being of many of our citizens were due to all the restrictive policies that shut whole sectors of our economy down and sent people home for two years. Policies that were supported, at least initially, by leaders of both political parties.

Biden didn’t reverse a single Trump policy upon entering office. Not one. He reverse ton of border policies but he didn’t waste a single executive order reversing a Trump pandemic policy. In fact, his administration fought, tooth and nail, for every mandate and for every restrictive policy.

Personally I thought we over reacted in shutting down large sectors of our economy for extended periods. I understand the initial reaction but we knew early on who was at high risk and instead of targeting our resources at those people, we unsuccessfully tried to micro manage the behaviour of 320 million people, most of whom were not at risk or were at very low risk.

As far as lying for months, our “experts” knew early on that the masks available to most people were ineffective. They knew early on that the 6 foot rule was bunk and that ventilation was the key. And yet they said nothing.

There’s plenty of blame to go around relating to the pandemic. Plenty. Hopefully we can, at some time, step back and look realistically at lessons learned.

Yes, no one was prepared, but Trump handled Covid horrendously. Despite initiating the development of the vaccines, for which he should get credit, he completely undermined it by constantly casting doubt on the vaccines. The U.S. ranked 14th for most deaths per million people, which is astounding, considering U.S. companies developed the vaccine! Trump's constant skepticism of the vaccine led to a very high percentage of people forgoing it, which directly led to our horrible performance on deaths.

COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Daily and weekly updated statistics tracking the number of COVID-19 cases, recovered, and deaths. Historical data with cumulative charts, graphs, and updates.

www.worldometers.info

Look at the countries that were worse! Almost all are 3rd world countries that probably couldn't get the vaccines, except Greece and Hungary. Hungary is led by Trump's hero, so that one doesn't surprise me. I don't know the story with Greece, but our expectations should be far higher, considering the amount we spend on healthcare.

 

[Dragon]

I don't know whether Tampa believes the voters were right to blame Biden for the economy, but I think he is right that it was was one of the main reasons that people voted for Trump. They also said it was due to immigration and laughably for democracy. I think the reason that most people voted for Trump was irrational, and they weren't considering the long term damage that Trump's governance will cause.

I still believe they voted for Trump because he to

Fact is that nobody in the world was prepared for the pandemic. We now know that many of the measures we took to protect ourselves made little to no difference at all. The thing that did the most to bend the curve was the vaccine.

The things that did the most damage to the economy and to the personal well being of many of our citizens were due to all the restrictive policies that shut whole sectors of our economy down and sent people home for two years. Policies that were supported, at least initially, by leaders of both political parties.

Biden didn’t reverse a single Trump policy upon entering office. Not one. He reverse ton of border policies but he didn’t waste a single executive order reversing a Trump pandemic policy. In fact, his administration fought, tooth and nail, for every mandate and for every restrictive policy.

Personally I thought we over reacted in shutting down large sectors of our economy for extended periods. I understand the initial reaction but we knew early on who was at high risk and instead of targeting our resources at those people, we unsuccessfully tried to micro manage the behaviour of 320 million people, most of whom were not at risk or were at very low risk.

As far as lying for months, our “experts” knew early on that the masks available to most people were ineffective. They knew early on that the 6 foot rule was bunk and that ventilation was the key. And yet they said nothing.

There’s plenty of blame to go around relating to the pandemic. Plenty. Hopefully we can, at some time, step back and look realistically at lessons learned.

When you ignore the pandemic for months and undermine Fauci when he tried to warn people then that happens. He also scrapped a complete pandemic respons plan when he took office just because the Obama white house had requested it. But most importantly of all. HE LIED to the american people for MONTHS.

Trump did the absolute minimal so why should Biden reverse that. On the contrary Biden implemented a whole lot of extra policies all aimed at stopping the pandemic which were raging at that time

And Trump did everything to derail Bidens policies. Anti-masking, Anti-vacs. Promoting quack medicin

 

[CoolBrees]

If only someone former President would have left a plan behind in case of a Pandemic.

Oh wait. Obama did.

Obama team left pandemic playbook for Trump administration, officials confirm

Despite Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell's claim that the Obama Administration left no game plan for a future pandemic, former Obama officials confirmed the existence of a National Security Council pandemic playbook listing types of infectious disease threats that could emerge.

www.pbs.org