Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets (UPDATE: Trump admin. deploying federal LE to cities) (1 Viewer)

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Dragon

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“All United States Marshals Service arrestees have public records of arrest documenting their charges. Our agency did not arrest or detain Mark James Pettibone.”

OPB sent DHS an extensive list of questions about Pettibone’s arrest including: What is the legal justification for making arrests away from federal property? What is the legal justification for searching people who are not participating in criminal activity? Why are federal officers using civilian vehicles and taking people away in them? Are the arrests federal officers make legal under the constitution? If so, how?

After 7 p.m. Thursday, a DHS spokesperson responded, on background, that they could confirm Wolf was in Portland during the day. The spokesperson didn’t acknowledge the remaining questions.






This story is very troublesome.
 

JimEverett

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Id ask that regarding police reform.

Only took 150,000 deaths to get current Administration to NOW start paying attention to COVID 19.

is that the benchmark?
What is a President supposed to do to reform local police?
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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I agree with what your saying about the police needling to avoid physical confrontation if possible and the instances about the Navy vet and child.

I do not agree with just surrendering the federal property to vandals and letting them burn it down. If they succeeded then you can guarantee it will continue. If it did continue, where and when do we put our foot down and stop it?
It's a difficult question for sure.

I would look at it like this, there are a variety of outcomes possible in a number of scenarios. Such as vandals deface the outside of the building but then nothing more. Vandals break windows and burn the inside but minor damage. Etc. All the way to burning the building down, or even worse harming federal employees. Each action the federal government takes changes the probabilities of the above scenarios, and changes the probabilities of future scenarios. The best outcome is no vandalism, no arrests, people can protest, and no property damage. The worst outcome would be the loss of life. So, every action should be considered as to whether it creates an outcome closer to the best and further from the worst, right?

In this particular instance, from what I can gather, before the feds went in, the federal courthouse was not in imminent danger of being burnt down. Granted, everything I've seen has been gathered after the feds arrived, so I was not witnessing this in real time. I also gather that the federal government was not satisfied with the protection the city/state was providing. So, the question to ask is what action by the federal government (the same type of scenario planning should also be done by the city/state and the protesters) would most likely protect federal property while allowing protests and prevent an escalation?

I have no idea what discussions the federal government would have had with Portland, so I'm assuming this did not happen, if it did, obviously that changes things. I would have had the federal government place a few armed agents inside the building to protect against an incursion. General warnings should be given to protesters outside that there are armed federal agents inside the building. Those agents would not be allowed to confront the protesters outside the building. I'd probably need a lawyer for my next part of the plan, but I would consider having plain clothes officers in the protest/crowd with video recording the whole thing. If people start defacing property, I would try to get as much evidence on them as possible for a future fine. Yes, I'm sure some people would think a fine for vandalism is not appropriate, but we'll need to disagree on that. I think the fine should be to cover the cost of repair as well as some punitive amount.

I'd leave it at that... yes, there is likely to be some property damage, but if you can punish those directly responsible in a way that makes it financially painful for them, and future protesters would need to consider the costs to themselves for behaving in a way outside societal norms, I think that's more likely to prevent future property damage than the response we got.
 

cuddlemonkey

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The federal building was breeched the same time as Minneapolis was burning. It hasn’t had any real damage since. Unless you consider Occupation the punishment for vandalism.

There are plenty of reports that Mr Ngo and the Proud Boys that fund him and his “journalism” were the ones that broke in, in the first place. He is a hack.

It is interesting how he has phone footage from INSIDE the federal bldg. he must have a Blackwater contact too.

Anyway, the cowards are tucking tail and finally leaving. We can now get back to the work of ending systemic anti-Black racism here in our police, prisons, schools, and basically every civic program today.

One of the speakers last night was the Chair of Black Studies Department at Portland State University. He spoke about our racism in Portland. How we are the shining example of progressive irony. We have all the best as far as public spaces, a hard border on the city to avoid sprawl, and are communities are not segregated. But we aren’t segregated because there simply aren’t any Black people who live here. So instead of white flight we stayed in the city worked to make all the social change; except against systemic anti- Black racism. Only 1.9% of our senior class is Black, yet our Black youth is reposnible for a out rate of nearly 50%. That is abhorrent.

But the thing he said that lifted my heart was about why he is hopeful. He is hopeful because of groups like The Wall of Vets are taking front line stands, not just signing petitions.

And then he brought up a group who he said truly gets it. He said they have laid the groundwork and are making a template on what white people can do to end Black and Indigenous racism. They are officially a non-profit now and I a proud of roll out to you all-

thewallofmoms.com

I would encourage anyone to go and read what the moms stand for and what they believe.

ETA- their whole site is down so I hope they weren’t hacked but the FB is still there. Basically their mantra is- we are here to take some of the abuse so our Black brothers and sisters may experience a little less. We aren’t the movement. We are here so the movement can be heard
Other way around now. Site is up, but the Facebook page is telling me the content isn't available.

Edit: Never mind. Found it.
 

efil4

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What is a President supposed to do to reform local police?
Apparently the answer for the current POTUS, like COVID, is nothing. Do nothing in hopes it magically disappears.

But like most others, the President can ask his DOJ to start looking into these claims, and if local police are found to be in violation, they can be held to a federal consent decree.

see NOPD.
 

CoolBrees

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I said BREECHED. As in entered the building. That hasn’t happened since a bunch of hooded white guys went in. The video from June is available as are the anecdotal accounts of the cowardly Proud Boys being the perpetrators of the original violence. It is their modus operandi for god sakes; using movements to create destruction and violence and then leaving so the protesters catch hell for their actions.

Nobody is getting to the building - god help you if you try. The fence it 12’ high and set up around the sidewalk. You can’t get within 25 yards of the door unless you take down the fence, fight through the line of mercenaries, be strong enough to eliminate the metal barricade bolted over the door and finally the cowards have made opening though windows and stand on scaffolding to fire pepper balls out of 3” slits from 15’ off the ground. If you somehow managed to still be on your feet and not gang tackled by several murder for hire thugs and made it into the lobby - you would be met by Blackwater and I am sure they would go with live rounds instead at that point.

And frankly if you have that kind of death wish, you are going to succeed in suicide by police sooner than later.

But none of that is neither here nor there. There was a breech in June. There were ZERO breeches for 50 days. If you don’t believe me, just freaking google it. I am sure you can look at Breitbart or Fox and they would have all the “riots” and damage associated for easy reference.

Or you will see stories where they call Black kids with laser pointers(!) terrorists, throwing water bottles Is akin to a flash grenade in terms of damage, with slingshots as the most dangerous weapon- being fired from behind a 12’ fence, 25 yards away through a 3” slit in the metal barricade that is about 15’ off the ground to hit a Merc that is wearing riot gear.

They stand on their observation deck and rain down pepper balls and water cannon from their perfect perch

Anyway, going down tonight should be great. Saying goodbye to these butt crevasses is going to feel sweet.

And then the real, meaningful work can begin
 

JimEverett

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Apparently the answer for the current POTUS, like COVID, is nothing. Do nothing in hopes it magically disappears.

But like most others, the President can ask his DOJ to start looking into these claims, and if local police are found to be in violation, they can be held to a federal consent decree.

see NOPD.
Are the feds not investigating claims? I know they are investigating Minneapolis Police
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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Gotcha. Considering there was vandalism of a federal building don't you think that's enough to warrant protection especially considering how the Portland politicians told the police to stand down?

How did they know if that was the end of the vandalism? It is troubling that many people think the violence is acceptable due to the need for police reform. How bad does it have to get until it's considered acceptable to stop the vandalism and violence?
I absolutely think the federal government is well within its rights to protect its property. I think the response was probably disproportionate and not helpful.

I think there's a bit of a disconnect. I think it's always acceptable to try to stop vandalism and violence. But I think the manner in which you try to do so needs to be both effective and "just".

Ie, I can stop a kid from tagging a bridge by shooting him, but that's obviously not "just". That's an obvious extreme example to highlight what I mean.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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When were federal "troops" sent, as opposed to the regular agents used for protection of the courthouse? This article suggests that on July 2, 2020 protesters set fire to the federal courthouse. https://www.opb.org/news/article/portland-police-less-lethal-munitions-protest-courthouse/

EDIT:



(I placed the emphsis)




The OPB article says the violence took place on July 2 into early July 3
Thanks... I'd like to get a good timeline and a better understanding of what happened when.

I think it's fair to say that the federal response was not very effective, but I think a good question is what would have been the better response.
 

CoolBrees

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Jim-

Yes the original breech and Portland Police were in charge then- it was in June. They used the same dispersal techniques Blackwater used - gas, pepper balls, etc

But the feds didn’t show up until around the 14th of July in force. They had started to arrive earlier but didn’t set up their barricade and offensive positions until around the 14th. It has been fights ever since
 
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JimEverett

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I absolutely think the federal government is well within its rights to protect its property. I think the response was probably disproportionate and not helpful.

I think there's a bit of a disconnect. I think it's always acceptable to try to stop vandalism and violence. But I think the manner in which you try to do so needs to be both effective and "just".

Ie, I can stop a kid from tagging a bridge by shooting him, but that's obviously not "just". That's an obvious extreme example to highlight what I mean.
I understand what you are saying but the problem is that teh context of a demonstration where there are a few bad apples vs. a kid tagging a bridge is really different.
But even using that example you are seeing criminal justice experts talking abut an increase in crime in a lot of cities being tied, in part, to police avoiding sort of "overpolicing." So instead of arresting/citing the tagger, the police ignore it which eventually leads to an escalation of crime.
I don't like the idea of tear-gassing a crowd because a few bozos shot off fireworks into a building or threw rocks - but ignoring it in-and-of itself can contribute to escalation.
 

efil4

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Are the feds not investigating claims? I know they are investigating Minneapolis Police
Are they? Because all i have found as of late was a June 23rd article about State Senate Rs asking the Feds to "take over" the investigation.


Only other item was Feds to look at the George Floyd incident. Not the PD as a whole.

So if you have links to something else, please do share.
 

SaintForLife

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Id ask that regarding police reform.

Only took 150,000 deaths to get current Administration to NOW start paying attention to COVID 19.

is that the benchmark?
Dude, this is a Wendy's restaurant- The Office

Seriously though, going by the rules of the left wingers here Covid has nothing to do with this thread.
 

JimEverett

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Are they? Because all i have found as of late was a June 23rd article about State Senate Rs asking the Feds to "take over" the investigation.


Only other item was Feds to look at the George Floyd incident. Not the PD as a whole.

So if you have links to something else, please do share.
I was talking about the George Floyd incident itself.

It is interesting that Minnesota Republicans are wanting a federal takeover of the investigation in the police department as a whole - is there some reason to distrust state government?
 

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