Electoral College vs Popular Vote

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    Optimus Prime

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    I know we’ve had good posts and conversations spread over a number of threads

    Thought we should have a single thread
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    The electoral college is gearing up for the fall semester. An election that once promised a presidential rematch between Joe Biden and Donald Trump now features a fresh face in Vice President Kamala Harris.

    On Election Day, Americans will cast their votes — but it will be the college that determines the winner, weeks later. Sometimes its decision is to bypass the people’s choice and award the presidency to a candidate with fewer votes. That’s occurred twice in the last six presidential elections.

    And it’s not out of the question this year.


    The college was originally advertised as a shield against a fickle public and the excesses of democracy. Its deliberations would be governed by honorable, judicious men, who would avoid secrecy and plotting.

    The institution would harbor a preference for low-population states to ensure those in the minority have a strong voice. And it would use weighted calculus to help reach fair decisions. But today, its design is antiquated. The math, too old. The college has certainly seen its share of intrigue and corruption.

    Along the way, it’s become increasingly unrepresentative even as our democracy has become more accessible.

    For example, since Harris became the Democratic nominee, Trump has dropped nearly seven points in national polling. That shift represents millions of voters who’ve changed their minds about the election.

    But the people’s shift is of little interest in the college. There, states matter most. And its winner-takes-all system doesn’t care whether victory in a state is decided by one vote or 1 million.

    As a result, though Harris could win the popular vote by millions, Trump could still win more states. In a system designed more than 200 years ago, that combination means lopsided elections can become electoral nail-biters.


    In short, the college has lost touch with the campus. In 2016, though Hillary Clinton beat Trump by 3 million votes, in the vote that counts she lost by 77 electors — an outcome effectively decided by 80,000 people in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    In 2020, Biden won the popular vote by 8 million, yet failed to match Trump’s margin of victory in the college four years earlier. Of those 8 million, the deciders amounted to just 44,000 people in Georgia, Arizona and Wisconsin.

    These numbers don’t add up. That’s why Americans favor scrapping the electoral college by a margin of 2 to 1. And it’s another reason the public has such low confidence in this not-quite-democracy…….

    We have options. One suggestion is to rely solely on a national popular vote, though wide margins of victory in a populous state put the race out of reach nationally. Clinton’s winning margin of 4.3 million votes in California is why she won the popular vote — without it, she loses the national vote by more than a million.

    Biden won the state by 5.1 million votes in 2020, more than the total population of 27 states.

    A more representative idea would be to allocate electoral votes in all states as Maine and Nebraska already do: two electors to the statewide winner and one vote for each congressional district.

    But that approach is spoiled by partisan gerrymandering, which can help losers of the statewide vote win more electors.


    A third alternative is a combination of the two. Assign electors based on each candidate’s share of the statewide vote: win 60 percent of the vote, get 60 percent of the state’s electors.

    More importantly for our democracy, losing candidates can still receive the electors they earn. These changes would restore meaning to margins of victory and inspire candidates to compete in every state. Additional electors can be found wherever candidates lose by a little less or win by a little more. It’s even good for third parties.

    In 2016, under this scheme, Green Party nominee Jill Stein would’ve won an elector in both deep-blue California and deep-red Texas……

     
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    So California votes “don’t matter”. Texas votes “don’t matter”. Is that your point.
    California and Texas don't vote. People who live in California and Texas vote. The votes of the each person who lives in California and Texas count less than the votes of each person who live in Montana and Vermont. That's not fair and it's not how the Electoral College was supposed to work.

    The Electoral College was supposed to be the same number of voters represented for each Electoral College vote. It hasn't been like that since 1929.

    Did you sleep through Civics and History classes in high school and college? Or are you just making the mistake of believing conservatives/Republicans/MAGA who keep lying to you?
     
    Again, we are a republic of sovereign states...
    Again you ignore the greater truth. Each Electoral College vote is supposed to represent the same number of voters. They no longer do. The Electoral College system was intentionally broken by fascists and Congress in 1929.

    The Electoral College is not working the way the Constitution designed it to work.

    You obviously don't have a clue about the Permanent Apportionment Act of 1929, so you clearly don't know what you are talking about when it comes to the actual history of the Electoral College. You can choose to properly inform yourself or wallow in ignorance. Your choice.

     
    I’m comfortable with the current process.
    Of course you are, because it gives Republican/MAGA more representation than they have voters.

    But you will have that problem with the proposed process which would abolish the EC.
    This is a false argument and you are making the false argument on purpose, because you know you are wrong. No one is trying to "abolish" the Electoral College. States are free to assign their Electoral College votes however they want. The Constitution gives the states and only the states that right.

    What some states are doing is entering into an agreement with other states about how they will assign their Electoral College votes, which they have every Constitutional right to do so.

    I look forward to seeing how you try to falsely frame that truth to support your false arguments and inaccurate statements. I'm not mad at you in the least, because I know that's all that false arguments is all you Republican/MAGA guys have.
     
    Your elected representatives in your state decide how to apportion the EC votes based on actual vote results in your state.
    This is proof you know you aren't telling the truth when you say that what the states are trying to do is unconstitutional and requires an amendment.

    You just confessed that you know states have the Constitutional right to decide how they assign/apportion their Electoral College votes.

    I suspect you also know that you're not telling the truth when you say that states have to assign/apportion their Electoral College votes based on election results in their state, because I believe without any doubt that you know the Constitution doesn't even require a state to have an election.

    It's going to be interesting to see how you try to spin your way out of this confession. My guess is you will just ignore it altogether. It's what Trump would do, so I suspect you'll continue to follow in his footsteps.
     
    I already said those votes count equally within the state. That is how our system works.
    Wrong. The system was broken in 1929. How the Electoral College system is supposed to work is that every Electoral College vote from every states is supposed the represent the same number of voters. It hasn't been working like that since 1929.

    What is unclear about that to you? This is like 8th grade level Civics, or are you young enough that your school didn't teach you Civics?
     
    Well, given the purpose was to balance the inequities of large population states over low population states I’d say it’s fair.
    Wrong. The Senate in Congress was supposed to provide that balance, but the Electoral College votes were supposed to statistically represent the same number of people across each state. How the Electoral College system was supposed to work was broken in 1929.
     
    The constitution requires house members be proportional among the states with each state having at least 1 whole member of the House.

    “The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative;”

    The current method is still proportional. Instead of 1 for every 30,000 it’s now 1 for approximately every 760,000.

    If it were still one for every 30,000 then the House today would have 11,633 members. Not a good thing.

    The constitution grants to Congress the power to apportion. Good thing.
    Proportional, a good thing.
     
    The current method is still proportional. Instead of 1 for every 30,000 it’s now 1 for approximately every 760,000.
    That's completely false. Several states have far less than 760,000 people per Congressional district and some states have far more than that.

    Apparently, you have no knowledge of the very convoluted formula and process that Congress uses to apportion Congressional districts.

    The constitution grants to Congress the power to apportion.
    Quote that part of the Constitution in its full text, not just selectively edited quoting. Only then will you be telling the whole and accurate truth.
     
    That's completely false. Several states have far less than 760,000 people per Congressional district and some states have far more than that.
    Yeah, he's just given the average, but an average by itself doesn't indicate a range.

    For reference, the wikipedia list of congressional districts - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_congressional_districts - has a handy 2024 population estimate for each one. Ranges from 555,745 (Rhode Island 1) to 1,051,917 (Delaware at-large). That's quite a substantial range.
     
    Yeah, he's just given the average, but an average by itself doesn't indicate a range.

    For reference, the wikipedia list of congressional districts - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_congressional_districts - has a handy 2024 population estimate for each one. Ranges from 555,745 (Rhode Island 1) to 1,051,917 (Delaware at-large). That's quite a substantial range.
    This actually underscores the problem with large geography, large population democracies. They become unwieldy and far too much of the populace will be ignored.

    Perhaps establishing a bureaucracy for handling constituent interaction with representatives is necessary. It could be done electronically. The number of people represented by a congresscritter would be dropped. Congress could meet in person, say, once a week, after providing a suitable building. The rest of the time would be done electronically.

    I don’t know if this would work but it is an idea.
     
    That's completely false. Several states have far less than 760,000 people per Congressional district and some states have far more than that.

    Apparently, you have no knowledge of the very convoluted formula and process that Congress uses to apportion Congressional districts.


    Quote that part of the Constitution in its full text, not just selectively edited quoting. Only then will you be telling the whole and accurate truth.
    That’s why the constitution requires a minimum of 1 representative per state.

    “Article I, Section 2, Clause 3:

    Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.”



     
    That’s why the constitution requires a minimum of 1 representative per state.

    “Article I, Section 2, Clause 3:

    Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.”



    You are ignoring the facts presented. Why is that?
     
    You are ignoring the facts presented. Why is that?
    Probably because they don’t reflect reality.

    The Method of Equal Proportions: Since 1940, the government has used the Huntington-Hill method of equal proportions to calculate allocations.

    Proportional allocation is fair. Meets the requirements of the constitution. There was a time in the 1800’s when Congress decides to base it on 260,000 to 1.

    It’s an effective method. We don’t need more seats as long as it is effectively proportional. Although a House of Representatives with 11,633 members would very entertaining and it would be proportional.
     
    Probably because they don’t reflect reality.

    The Method of Equal Proportions: Since 1940, the government has used the Huntington-Hill method of equal proportions to calculate allocations.

    Proportional allocation is fair. Meets the requirements of the constitution. There was a time in the 1800’s when Congress decides to base it on 260,000 to 1.

    It’s an effective method. We don’t need more seats as long as it is effectively proportional. Although a House of Representatives with 11,633 members would very entertaining and it would be proportional.
    When the number of people per EC vote varies from 500,000 to over a million depending on the state, how is that proportional? How is it fair?
     

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