Electoral College vs Popular Vote (2 Viewers)

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Optimus Prime

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I know we’ve had good posts and conversations spread over a number of threads

Thought we should have a single thread
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The electoral college is gearing up for the fall semester. An election that once promised a presidential rematch between Joe Biden and Donald Trump now features a fresh face in Vice President Kamala Harris.

On Election Day, Americans will cast their votes — but it will be the college that determines the winner, weeks later. Sometimes its decision is to bypass the people’s choice and award the presidency to a candidate with fewer votes. That’s occurred twice in the last six presidential elections.

And it’s not out of the question this year.


The college was originally advertised as a shield against a fickle public and the excesses of democracy. Its deliberations would be governed by honorable, judicious men, who would avoid secrecy and plotting.

The institution would harbor a preference for low-population states to ensure those in the minority have a strong voice. And it would use weighted calculus to help reach fair decisions. But today, its design is antiquated. The math, too old. The college has certainly seen its share of intrigue and corruption.

Along the way, it’s become increasingly unrepresentative even as our democracy has become more accessible.

For example, since Harris became the Democratic nominee, Trump has dropped nearly seven points in national polling. That shift represents millions of voters who’ve changed their minds about the election.

But the people’s shift is of little interest in the college. There, states matter most. And its winner-takes-all system doesn’t care whether victory in a state is decided by one vote or 1 million.

As a result, though Harris could win the popular vote by millions, Trump could still win more states. In a system designed more than 200 years ago, that combination means lopsided elections can become electoral nail-biters.


In short, the college has lost touch with the campus. In 2016, though Hillary Clinton beat Trump by 3 million votes, in the vote that counts she lost by 77 electors — an outcome effectively decided by 80,000 people in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

In 2020, Biden won the popular vote by 8 million, yet failed to match Trump’s margin of victory in the college four years earlier. Of those 8 million, the deciders amounted to just 44,000 people in Georgia, Arizona and Wisconsin.

These numbers don’t add up. That’s why Americans favor scrapping the electoral college by a margin of 2 to 1. And it’s another reason the public has such low confidence in this not-quite-democracy…….

We have options. One suggestion is to rely solely on a national popular vote, though wide margins of victory in a populous state put the race out of reach nationally. Clinton’s winning margin of 4.3 million votes in California is why she won the popular vote — without it, she loses the national vote by more than a million.

Biden won the state by 5.1 million votes in 2020, more than the total population of 27 states.

A more representative idea would be to allocate electoral votes in all states as Maine and Nebraska already do: two electors to the statewide winner and one vote for each congressional district.

But that approach is spoiled by partisan gerrymandering, which can help losers of the statewide vote win more electors.


A third alternative is a combination of the two. Assign electors based on each candidate’s share of the statewide vote: win 60 percent of the vote, get 60 percent of the state’s electors.

More importantly for our democracy, losing candidates can still receive the electors they earn. These changes would restore meaning to margins of victory and inspire candidates to compete in every state. Additional electors can be found wherever candidates lose by a little less or win by a little more. It’s even good for third parties.

In 2016, under this scheme, Green Party nominee Jill Stein would’ve won an elector in both deep-blue California and deep-red Texas……

 
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We all know that isn’t the process

But it should be

Regardless of if changing the process would be easy to do, hard to do or impossible to do I believe that the process should be “most votes wins”

What do you think the process should be?
I’m comfortable with the current process. I am comfortable with the process required to change the constitution. I will be comfortable with an amended process as long as it follows the constitution.

I do think the current process is a fair process. I accept that some people will disagree. But you will have that problem with the proposed process which would abolish the EC.
 
He said millions of votes don’t count. Which millions? Whose votes don’t count.

If people bother to vote. Their votes count.
My vote for president is almost never awarded to the person I vote for. That’s what it means. It doesn’t count toward their election.

But you know that.
 
My vote for president is almost never awarded to the person I vote for. That’s what it means. It doesn’t count toward their election.

But you know that.
It is awarded to the individual you vote for within your state. Your elected representatives in your state decide how to apportion the EC votes based on actual vote results in your state.

Sounds fair. It’s representative democracy. It’s constitutional. We are a republic after all.

But there is a constitutional process to amend the Constitution. It is difficult to do. But it is there. And it still works. And it’s fair.
 
It is awarded to the individual you vote for within your state. Your elected representatives in your state decide how to apportion the EC votes based on actual vote results in your state.

Sounds fair. It’s representative democracy. It’s constitutional. We are a republic after all.

But there is a constitutional process to amend the Constitution. It is difficult to do. But it is there. And it still works. And it’s fair.
It isn’t fair that seven states control the EC. My state almost never sees a presidential candidate during the campaigns because one side takes it for granted and the other side concedes it. Maybe I would like the opportunity to see one and ask questions?

That isn’t right. It isn’t right that rural votes carry more weight than urban votes.
 
It isn’t fair that seven states control the EC. My state almost never sees a presidential candidate during the campaigns because one side takes it for granted and the other side concedes it. Maybe I would like the opportunity to see one and ask questions?

That isn’t right. It isn’t right that rural votes carry more weight than urban votes.
Well you need to take that up with the campaigns.

As far as weight is concerned, this is the constitutional process. And as a Republic it is built around the states. If you think it isn’t right, there is a process. A constitutional process. You just have to convince enough people your solution is better.
 
Like nailing Jello to a tree
I already said those votes count equally within the state. That is how our system works. What is unclear to you?

If you wish to change the process then you will need an amendment to the Constitution. That is also how our system works.

If you are unhappy about how your state allocates its EC votes based on election results in your state, you need to see your elected representatives. That is also how the system works.

If you want to change the Constitution you will run into the same issues the Founders faced when confronting this problem. Smaller states don’t want to be dominated by larger states so the founders compromised. That’s why we are a Republic of sovereign states and not just one big country. That’s why the EC works the way it does. And if you wish to change that then you will have to sell that to the smaller states. Cause they get a say in their destiny and they may not like your idea of “fair”.
 
I already said those votes count equally within the state. That is how our system works. What is unclear to you?

If you wish to change the process then you will need an amendment to the Constitution. That is also how our system works.

If you are unhappy about how your state allocates its EC votes based on election results in your state, you need to see your elected representatives. That is also how the system works.

If you want to change the Constitution you will run into the same issues the Founders faced when confronting this problem. Smaller states don’t want to be dominated by larger states so the founders compromised. That’s why we are a Republic of sovereign states and not just one big country. That’s why the EC works the way it does. And if you wish to change that then you will have to sell that to the smaller states. Cause they get a say in their destiny and they may not like your idea of “fair”.

That answer completely ignores the actual question.

Asking for a third time: Yes or no, do you believe that every vote should carry equal weight?
 
If you are unhappy about how your state allocates its EC votes based on election results in your state
You seem to say here that it’s up to the state’s legislators how to allocate the state’s electoral votes, yet you are also saying that state legislators don’t have the right to change the allocation to the winner of the national vote. Which is it?

HInt: States do have the right to decide how to allocate their state’s electoral votes.
 
That doesn’t make it fair and votes in different states carry different weights under the current process. Does that seem fair?

And it doesn’t answer the question posed, shocking lol
Well, given the purpose was to balance the inequities of large population states over low population states I’d say it’s fair.

On the other hand I wouldn’t oppose a popular vote amendment. I suspect a number states would.
 
As has been pointed out, we are not one single democracy but rather a Republic of Sovereign States. The EC reflects that dynamic. We don’t have one election but rather 50 democratic state elections. It has worked for 200 years.

It is fair. Everyone knows the rules and runs their campaigns accordingly.
Sorry no. That is way off base. Not sure why I am even replying to you. It's against my rules. I won't make that mistake again.
 

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