DOJ issues (2 Viewers)

[MT15]

I think it might be helpful to have a separate thread for this in the coming weeks and months.

The four prosecutors who withdrew from the Stone case seem to have called attention to the DOJ and Bill Barr’s heavy hand in nearly every aspect of the department.

Justin Amash has some eye opening quotes he is attributing to Bill Barr in this Twitter thread. It’s not very comforting to someone who values their rights.



I would be interested in legal takes on Barr’s insisting that all investigations into any campaign must go to him before any information is even gathered. As well as Barr setting up some sort of “channel” where Rudy can funnel his highly suspect “findings” from Ukraine directly to Barr. When we have such a political AG as Barr, this takes the appearance of impropriety.

 

[SaintForLife]

Well if techno fog and undercover Huber tell me something is deep state, then it must be.
What is techno fog’s thoughts on on QAnon?

Oh and there is this (from a real news site):

McCabe, an ex-FBI official targeted by Trump, not charged

WASHINGTON (AP) — Federal prosecutors have declined to charge former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe, closing an investigation into whether the longtime target of President Donald Trump's ire lied to federal officials about his involvement in a news media disclosure, McCabe's legal team said.

apnews.com

So is McCabe deep state or not? I am so confused who the deep state is. It changes all the time

It's clear that there are two tiers of justice. People in the government like McCabe, Comey, Clapper, and Brennan can lie under oath or to federal investigators and not be charged with a single crime. If you are a member of the Trump campaign you will definitely be charged with lying. I'm not talking about any crimes by the Trump campaign except the lies. I'm not excusing the lies.

If someone lies under oath or to federal investigators they should be punished, but can someone on the left please explain to me how McCabe, Comey, Clapper, and Brennan don't deserved to be charged with lying?

 

[SaintForLife]

I think the opinion that it was a questionable enhancement is just that, an opinion. Had Barr objected to it from the beginning, he could have had it downgraded. But he didn’t do anything until after Trump’s tweet.

ETA: I forgot about this piece of info to give some context. I heard someone who was previously in the DOJ say yesterday that prosecutors used to have a bit more leeway with the sentencing guidelines, but when Barr took over one of his directives was to push all sentencing recommendations to the top end of the guidelines. Hence another reason for the prosecutors outrage when he changed to appease Trump.

Obviously I’m not in position to know if that’s the case or not.

Barr has said publicly that he discussed with his staff that night that they needed to make an change in the morning.

 

[SaintForLife]

Fine, I think your posts show a lack of consideration of all points of view.

Didn’t you just accuse someone of bias yourself? And now say it’s sarcasm?

Yes I did, but when I do it's in response to someone else doing that first. My post about asking if someone worked for Mueller was clearly sarcasm. Did you actually think that I though someone here worked for Mueller?

 

[MT15]

Barr has said publicly that he discussed with his staff that night that they needed to make an change in the morning.

And we should believe that because.....? Don’t you think it’s pretty convenient that he says it verbally, so there isn’t any evidence that it actually happened that way?

Why do you think Barr would take such an active interest in this sentencing? Why would he make a directive to the department to push every sentence to the high end of the guidelines, and then reverse that for this one?

Also, a veteran of DOJ said in all his years under both Republican and Democratic administrations, he never saw the AG make a personal decision in a sentencing memo. Not once.

You say Brennan, et al have lied to investigators, but I’m not sure it’s as ironclad as you say it is. McCabe, for example, the IG didn’t say he lied, he said he wasn’t as forthcoming as he should have been. I’ve seen veteran FBI officers say that what McCabe did was what his job was, nothing more. If McCabe can be indicted, then Bill Barr knows he’s already done far worse.

There’s stuff starting to come out about Barr. People who know what’s been happening are starting to disclose what they know. It’s quite possible he has shut down 2-3 ongoing investigations into the Trump organization already. And we know Barr is trying to gin up prosecutions against people in order to please Trump.

I saw somebody make a very valid point about this whole sordid direction Trump and Barr are taking us. They named several countries that are now oligarchies, or under authoritarian leaders. These were all countries who had constitutions modeled after the US Constitution, they all had checks and balances in place, laws, etc. They all slid into an autocracy. Because they all elected a leader who was willing to use every bit of power afforded to him to punish his opponents and consolidate his own power. Who had zero respect for the rule of law, ethics, honesty or common decency, and was only interested in gaining power and money for himself. Do we have such a President right now? Yes we do, and we shouldn’t be so cavalier about Trump’s corruption that we think we can’t lose our representative democracy, because we've seen it happen all over the world.

And I don’t know if you realize it, but you said your snarky “do you work for Mueller” like that is an insult or something. Mueller is an honorable man. If anything, Mueller went easy on Trump out of respect for the office. He should have insisted that Trump testify. He let him off the hook.

 

[Beach Friends]

And we should believe that because.....? Don’t you think it’s pretty convenient that he says it verbally, so there isn’t any evidence that it actually happened that way?

Well, you have Barr saying that is the way it happened. That's evidence. And then if his directions were oral like he says, then the people who followed his directions heard them.

They would all have to do a lot of conspiring to get their lies straight. All for no reason because they could just as easily say yeah, the chief executive told me to take a look at it.

 

[MT15]

BF, you remember when I posted last night that the new US Attorney had signed off on the sentencing memo and everything was done by the book, and then Barr overruled them after the Trump tweet? And you said that was based in “fantasy”? And SFL assured us that the 4 prosecutors had lied to the DOJ about what they were going to use for a sentencing recommendation?

Turns out it probably actually happened exactly the way I heard, if you believe the Wall Street Journal’s reporting.

And Barr may be telling the truth, but I don’t trust him to do that, because he’s lied before. And I tend to hold that against people.

 

[SaintForLife]

And we should believe that because.....? Don’t you think it’s pretty convenient that he says it verbally, so there isn’t any evidence that it actually happened that way?

Considering most people communicate verbally, I don't see anything abnormal about that. I'm guessing there is some memo or letter stating what they were going to do. I think even if Barr produced a time stamped memo or letter that you and many on the left still wouldn't believe it to be true.

Why do you think Barr would take such an active interest in this sentencing? Why would he make a directive to the department to push every sentence to the high end of the guidelines, and then reverse that for this one?

How do you know that he hasn't done the same thing with other cases? Are you disputing that the Attorney General has the power to get involved with sentencing guidelines? Can you cite something showing what you are talking about pushing every sentence to the high end? I'm not familiar with that.

Also, a veteran of DOJ said in all his years under both Republican and Democratic administrations, he never saw the AG make a personal decision in a sentencing memo. Not once.

Who was that veteran DOJ official that said that? Can you point out where that came from?

You say Brennan, et al have lied to investigators, but I’m not sure it’s as ironclad as you say it is. McCabe, for example, the IG didn’t say he lied, he said he wasn’t as forthcoming as he should have been. I’ve seen veteran FBI officers say that what McCabe did was what his job was, nothing more. If McCabe can be indicted, then Bill Barr knows he’s already done far worse.

In 2017 Brennan told the House Intel Committee that the Steele dossier didn't play a role in the creation of intelligence community assessment on Russian interference. The IG report proved that was a lie.


The Justice Department Inspector General alleges in a damaging report made public Friday that former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe inappropriately authorized the disclosure of sensitive information to a reporter and then misled investigators and former FBI Director James B. Comey about it on several occasions.

The report from Inspector General Michael Horowitz is remarkable for its level of detail, casting McCabe as a man who repeatedly lied to investigators and his own boss about his role in a disclosure of information, even while he lashed out at others who he thought might be responsible for leaks.

Inspector general report faults Andrew McCabe for unauthorized disclosure of information, misleading investigators

The report, which alleges McCabe authorized the disclosure of sensitive information and misled investigators about it, was turned over to Congress Friday.

www-washingtonpost-com.cdn.ampproject.org

There’s stuff starting to come out about Barr. People who know what’s been happening are starting to disclose what they know. It’s quite possible he has shut down 2-3 ongoing investigations into the Trump organization already. And we know Barr is trying to gin up prosecutions against people in order to please Trump.

What stuff and who was saying that? We have evidence of illegal spying on an American citizen and a Presidential campaign, but to you investigating that is ginning up prosecutions? The fact that you aren't worried about that is concerning.

I saw somebody make a very valid point about this whole sordid direction Trump and Barr are taking us. They named several countries that are now oligarchies, or under authoritarian leaders. These were all countries who had constitutions modeled after the US Constitution, they all had checks and balances in place, laws, etc. They all slid into an autocracy. Because they all elected a leader who was willing to use every bit of power afforded to him to punish his opponents and consolidate his own power. Who had zero respect for the rule of law, ethics, honesty or common decency, and was only interested in gaining power and money for himself. Do we have such a President right now? Yes we do, and we shouldn’t be so cavalier about Trump’s corruption that we think we can’t lose our representative democracy, because we've seen it happen all over the world.

It's hard to take you seriously when you post hyperbolic stuff like this. You really think it's possible for Trump to turn our country into an authoritarian regime? Aren't there plenty of safeguards to prevent that from happening?

And I don’t know if you realize it, but you said your snarky “do you work for Mueller” like that is an insult or something. Mueller is an honorable man. If anything, Mueller went easy on Trump out of respect for the office. He should have insisted that Trump testify. He let him off the hook.

The same Mueller who looked like he had no idea what was in his Mueller report when he testified? They probably should have called it the Weissman report. It seems like you are only saying he let him off the hook because you didnt get the result you wanted.

 

[Beach Friends]

Why would Barr take an interest in this sentencing recommendation? Obviously it is a high profile case and the recommendation was extreme and looked to be the product of political bias at a time when the DOJ has been rightfully criticized for politically motivated malfeasance.

What are the chances that four career attorneys all made a career decision to quit the DOJ at the same time on a whim?


MT15, if we you want to throw out theories - I would think it is just as likely these 4 attorneys were under already under scrutiny, had one foot out the door and planned in advance to walk out in mock protest if higher ups reversed them.

In any event, I don't know why so many people have such a burning desire for this weird old man to die in a federal penitentiary. It is just a sign of the times at how deranged some people have become out of hate for the President.

 

[MT15]

SFL, I don’t remember who I heard, I just leave the tv on in the background. It’s at least as credible as some of your anonymous twitter sources, though. At least I’m not saying they are definitely true, because there’s no way for me or you to know that. You were pretty sure the other day that they 4 prosecutors lied to the DOJ about their memo, though, and thats been debunked now by the WSJ. Oh and this reporting as well:

After Stone Case, Prosecutors Say They Fear Pressure From Trump (Published 2020)

The episode also brought to a head tensions in the U.S. attorney’s office in Washington.

www.nytimes.com

As for lying to Congress, I read a whole thread of one of your anonymous twitter sources, the “Undercover” guy, who isn’t really the guy whose name he cites. Anyway he had some good points, that Stone is in trouble because of his own actions, nobody else’s, and that the stuff about the juror is probably of no consequence. Where he goes off the rails is his assertion that all Trump people get prosecuted for lying and all Democrats do not. That’s just patently false, and shows his partisan bias. Jeff Sessions lied about his contacts with Russians, and had to come back and correct himself. Eric Prince lied to Congress as well. Don Jr. lied to Congress. None of them were charged, as most people who lie to Congress are not charged, because it’s very difficult to prove in court.

Now you state Brennan lied as if it were fact, but the only articles I found on a search are all right wing sources. The NY Times has a recent story. After reading it, it appears that there is some question about what you say was a lie.

Durham Is Scrutinizing Ex-C.I.A. Director’s Role in Russian Interference Findings

Durham Is Scrutinizing Ex-C.I.A. Director’s Role in Russian Interference Findings (Published 2019)

The federal prosecutor investigating the origins of the Russia inquiry is examining testimony by the former C.I.A. director John Brennan and seeking his communications records.

www.nytimes.com

As for McCabe, he says he was authorized to release the information, and I have seen other FBI people say the same. He disputes what Horowitz said. The fact that the DOJ has now dropped their attempt to prosecute him tells me there was some question about whether he lied or not. You know Trump wanted him in jail in the worst way, so if they had any sort of case at all they were going to move forward. They tried really hard to make up a case against him, but they evidently just don’t have anything.



As for the safeguards, yes, we have them. So did the countries talked about. Trump is openly calling for Vindman to be “investigated” and disciplined by the Army. He is pressuring DOJ to persecute his political rivals, and Barr is doing his best to oblige. This isn’t how you keep a free and open society based on laws. This is how you start the slide into becoming an authoritarian state. We used to make fun of Trump chanting “lock her up”, and think it was just something to fire up his base. Turns out he’s dead serious about locking up his political rivals, or anyone else who dares to cross him, even a decorated Army LTC. That’s not the sign of a healthy representative republic, that’s the sign of a country on its way to authoritarianism, whether you want to admit it or not.

The best thing that could happen right now would be for the Senate to censure Trump, with a bipartisan vote. The House as well. He deserves it and it might have some effect. The odds of that happening are slim, however, and that is a failing of the Republican party.

Your remarks about Mueller betray your bias. He evidently has suffered very recently from some sort of medical condition, it’s very crass of you to use that against him.

 

[not2rich]

You really think it's possible for Trump to turn our country into an authoritarian regime? Aren't there plenty of safeguards to prevent that from happening?

The only real safeguard is a populace that isn't subject to propaganda that enables them to rationalize and defend it. Scapegoats - immigrants, lefties, whatever - come in handy for the authoritarian.

 

[MT15]

So it appears that someone has given the narrative to the congressional Republicans. First the tweet by Grassley promoting a false equivalence and now Jordan promoting same false equivalency. True gaslighting going on from the Rs.

 

[MT15]

And there’s this:

Former Justice Dept. Lawyers Press for Barr to Step Down (Published 2020)

More than 1,100 former prosecutors and officials who served in Republican and Democratic administrations signed an open letter condemning the president and the attorney general over the Stone case.

www.nytimes.com

 

[MT15]

In any event, I don't know why so many people have such a burning desire for this weird old man to die in a federal penitentiary. It is just a sign of the times at how deranged some people have become out of hate for the President.

boy, talk about missing the point. People don’t care about Stone one bit. What they care about is the obvious cronyism laid bare. We both have our theories, but all we can go by are the facts of the case.

Fact: the sentencing memo as originally put forth was done by the book, and properly authorized.

Fact: after it became public, the President complained about it via Twitter

Fact: the next day, Barr reversed the original memo and had another one hastily put forward that argued against the first memo.

Fact: the President then publicly thanked Barr for intervening to help his friend

This is from a president who, against all evidence to the contrary, people believe is crusading against corruption.

We as a nation need to decide exactly what sort of country we want to have, because Trump is ripping down the safeguards. Do we want to just abandon all pretense that Justice is blind? We all know that’s an impossible goal, but it has always been what we say we strive to achieve.

If we don’t make a fuss over this small case, then we will be saying it’s fine that Trump gets his cronies off by manipulating the DOJ. It’s fine that he weaponizes the DOJ against his political rivals, regardless of whether any actual crimes were committed. That’s not the model of the American Justice system that we should be supporting.

 

[Beach Friends]

SFL, I don’t remember who I heard, I just leave the tv on in the background. It’s at least as credible as some of your anonymous twitter sources, though. At least I’m not saying they are definitely true, because there’s no way for me or you to know that. You were pretty sure the other day that they 4 prosecutors lied to the DOJ about their memo, though, and thats been debunked now by the WSJ. Oh and this reporting as well:

After Stone Case, Prosecutors Say They Fear Pressure From Trump (Published 2020)

The episode also brought to a head tensions in the U.S. attorney’s office in Washington.

www.nytimes.com

As for lying to Congress, I read a whole thread of one of your anonymous twitter sources, the “Undercover” guy, who isn’t really the guy whose name he cites. Anyway he had some good points, that Stone is in trouble because of his own actions, nobody else’s, and that the stuff about the juror is probably of no consequence. Where he goes off the rails is his assertion that all Trump people get prosecuted for lying and all Democrats do not. That’s just patently false, and shows his partisan bias. Jeff Sessions lied about his contacts with Russians, and had to come back and correct himself. Eric Prince lied to Congress as well. Don Jr. lied to Congress. None of them were charged, as most people who lie to Congress are not charged, because it’s very difficult to prove in court.

Now you state Brennan lied as if it were fact, but the only articles I found on a search are all right wing sources. The NY Times has a recent story. After reading it, it appears that there is some question about what you say was a lie.

Durham Is Scrutinizing Ex-C.I.A. Director’s Role in Russian Interference Findings

Durham Is Scrutinizing Ex-C.I.A. Director’s Role in Russian Interference Findings (Published 2019)

The federal prosecutor investigating the origins of the Russia inquiry is examining testimony by the former C.I.A. director John Brennan and seeking his communications records.

www.nytimes.com

As for McCabe, he says he was authorized to release the information, and I have seen other FBI people say the same. He disputes what Horowitz said. The fact that the DOJ has now dropped their attempt to prosecute him tells me there was some question about whether he lied or not. You know Trump wanted him in jail in the worst way, so if they had any sort of case at all they were going to move forward. They tried really hard to make up a case against him, but they evidently just don’t have anything.



As for the safeguards, yes, we have them. So did the countries talked about. Trump is openly calling for Vindman to be “investigated” and disciplined by the Army. He is pressuring DOJ to persecute his political rivals, and Barr is doing his best to oblige. This isn’t how you keep a free and open society based on laws. This is how you start the slide into becoming an authoritarian state. We used to make fun of Trump chanting “lock her up”, and

And there’s this:

Former Justice Dept. Lawyers Press for Barr to Step Down (Published 2020)

More than 1,100 former prosecutors and officials who served in Republican and Democratic administrations signed an open letter condemning the president and the attorney general over the Stone case.

www.nytimes.com

I didn't read the letter, was it strongly worded?

 

[MT15]

I didn't read the letter, was it strongly worded?

your support for corruption has been noted, as long as it’s your guy who is corrupt it’s A-OK with you, we get it.

 

[insidejob]

From 1991, written by a classmate of Barr. Interesting.

 

[Beach Friends]

your support for corruption has been noted, as long as it’s your guy who is corrupt it’s A-OK with you, we get it.

I suppose I could respond in kind by stringing together insults aimed at you. But, I realize that you are just desperate because you see the writing on the wall and you realize that in all likelihood DJT will be your President until 2024.

 

[coldseat]

From 1991, written by a classmate of Barr. Interesting.

It's incredible how not one word of that seems over exaggerated or false. It's completely believable in hindsight with what we've seen to date with his actions in this administration. We were all warned and should have known. This piece of crap was never a decent person, just a liar and deceiver.