Law Enforcement Reform Thread (formerly Defund the Police) (1 Viewer)

[First Time Poster]

So I got busy the other day with the intention to revisit this topic and answer some of the responses put forward but I realized the thread was deleted. But, I felt we had good dialogue happening before I left so I wanted to restart the topic to get the conversation going again. We started some dialogue about it on the liberal board but I feel this topic transcends party lines so I'm making a MCB thread. Post #2, or my next post, is the post I made on the liberal board when asked to elaborate how I felt.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you here, but police are doing that in places like Atlanta - and they are getting criticized for it because crime is going up. You are seeing a similar thing in Chicago and other cities.
Baltimore police were criticized for similar things a few years ago in the aftermath of charges being brought in the Freddie Gray murder.

I think there are a lot of factors in rise of violent crime we have seen in some big cities recently, and police actions probably play a role in that. And if that is the case then police slowdowns will have the greatest negative impact on impoverished black communities - the ones where few of the current protestors have to go back and live.

I'm sure it's a risk, but I'm not sure what's going on in Atlanta is a systemic approach to policing and working with the community to establish what is a good standard of probable cause, and also, I'm not sure a couple of months of altered policing is enough to draw any sort of long term conclusion, especially since there are some other variables at play (rapid increase in unemployment, uncertainty, lockdowns starting then ending, and then political unrest).

Obviously there needs to be some kind of balance - we accept that some level of crime is acceptable, otherwise, we'd have police searching people's homes. We'd have investigators searching our computers all the time trying to prevent fraud. Police on every corner, and so on. A police state. I don't think anyone wants that. Which is what I'm driving at, I don't think it's unwarranted to review our commitment to the 4th amendment and re-examine what is the appropriate threshold for probable cause.

It's a bit of philosophical question too, isn't? What prevents crime? Why do people commit crime, and what is the most effective way to stop it?

Crime is a social construct right? By that I mean a crime is just whatever society says it is, and it isn't always consistent with the level of harm. We don't always treat one person harming another person as a crime, that demands an arrest. So, clearly we can examine what we currently treat as a crime and what can be solved through civil action.

 

[Ayo]

This story is making the rounds up here- it involves Masai Ujiri, the President of Toronto Raptors. Last year, as some of you might recall, Ujiri was coming down to the floor after their game 6 victory, to clinch the championship.

Before he could make it to the floor, there was an altercation between him and an officer. The details differed between Ujiri's testimony and the officer's version. The officer said that Ujiri refused to show his credentials/badge and that he instigated the pushing and shoving. Ujiri denied that and said he pulled his ID out and was pushed first.

After that, the police officer sued Ujiri (and, I believe, so did the officer's wife). It went back and forth in the media and Ujiri never wavered on his interpretation of the events.

Body cam footage was finally released. In the clip below, you'll see the body cam footage, and then security cam footage of the altercation from a different angle:



I think I can hear "Back the **** up, man."

And today, Ujiri released the following statement:

 

[Ayo]

also - and I think this deserves its own post - I take two things away from this footage:

1. look at the look on Ujiri's face. Someone on Twitter (I can't remember whom) said that this should be a joyous occasion, a pinnacle of his career and year. And the look on his face is, well, *not* that.

2. I love Kyle Lowery. He sees this, runs over, and says to Ujiri: "We got this for you. We over here. We over here!" as he pulls him to the teammates, recognizing the stress and confusion and pain Ujiri was in at this moment and trying to pull him into his team/family. Kyle does a ton on the court that makes me love him.

But this might be my favorite Kyle Lowery moment ever.

 

[First Time Poster]

And what did the sheriff's office have to say after that damning video was released?

Alameda Sheriff's Dept. Backs Deputy After Masai Ujiri Body Cam Video Released

Despite what newly released video evidence suggests, the Alameda County Sheriff's Office is reportedly sticking its story that Toronto Raptors president Masai Ujiri was the aggressor during a 2019 altercation with deputy Alan Strickland...

www.google.com

"We 100 percent stand by [the] original statement that was released that Mr. Ujiri is the aggressor in this incident," the sheriff's office said, per Stephanie Smyth of CP 24. "Don't be quick to judge based off of what lawyers are saying."

This is why "Defund the Police" is bigger than just policy changes. It is cultural too. If it was just "one bad apple" why would they release such a statement in the face of such damning video evidence and attempt to characterize it as "what lawyers are saying." It isn't what lawyers are saying. It's what your officer alleges and the video evidence aligning with what Mr. Ujiri alleges happened, in contrast to your officer.

 

[SFIDC3]

This is why "Defund the Police" is bigger than just policy changes. It is cultural too. If it was just "one bad apple" why would they release such a statement in the face of such damning video evidence and attempt to characterize it as "what lawyers are saying." It isn't what lawyers are saying. It's what your officer alleges and the video evidence aligning with what Mr. Ujiri alleges happened, in contrast to your officer.

Agreed, there are bad apples (more than a few, to be sure), then there are complicit apples that enable the bad apples. The complicit apples are too many to count....It really is disgraceful....

 

[Ayo]

Agreed, there are bad apples (more than a few, to be sure), then there are complicit apples that enable the bad apples. The complicit apples are too many to count....It really is disgraceful....

we have a word for that... systemic

 

[bdb13]

Agreed, there are bad apples (more than a few, to be sure), then there are complicit apples that enable the bad apples. The complicit apples are too many to count....It really is disgraceful....

(Not comparing terrorists to police, just an analogy)

I remember seeing polling years ago of Middle Eastern countries that showed that while the large majority of respondents wouldn't commit terrorist attacks themselves, a disturbingly high number of them we're okay with terrorist attacks and the ensuing deaths of non-muslims.

Similar situation with the police. The perpetrators are a problem, but the culture is really the underlying problem and what allows it to become normalized.

 

[JimEverett]

Do as I say, not as I do - only peasants should have to have their businesses and neighborhoods destroyed in the name of progress.

Citing threats, Mayor Lori Lightfoot defends ban on protesters on her block: ‘I have a right to make sure that my home is secure’

Mayor Lori Lightfoot defended the Chicago Police Department’s ban on protesters being able to demonstrate on the block where she lives, telling reporters Thursday that she and her family at t…

www.chicagotribune.com

 

[bdb13]

Do as I say, not as I do - only peasants should have to have their businesses and neighborhoods destroyed in the name of progress.

Citing threats, Mayor Lori Lightfoot defends ban on protesters on her block: ‘I have a right to make sure that my home is secure’

Mayor Lori Lightfoot defended the Chicago Police Department’s ban on protesters being able to demonstrate on the block where she lives, telling reporters Thursday that she and her family at t…

www.chicagotribune.com

Coward.

 

[Farb]

(Not comparing terrorists to police, just an analogy)

I remember seeing polling years ago of Middle Eastern countries that showed that while the large majority of respondents wouldn't commit terrorist attacks themselves, a disturbingly high number of them we're okay with terrorist attacks and the ensuing deaths of non-muslims.

Similar situation with the police. The perpetrators are a problem, but the culture is really the underlying problem and what allows it to become normalized.

That is an interesting point. Something I have not thought of. While I am generally on the side of the police, I am good friends with a good number, even they will admit there are bad cops and they need to be purged. Actually, I think you will find the majority of all Americans agree with you on that.
Another side of the coin, besides the fact that most of the time, they are dealing with the worst of the worst of our society, is that vilifying someone or something generally does not encourage change. Instead of vilifing the police, maybe BLM should support the police. Help clean up communities they give lip service too ask for better police. Better training, better pay to attract better people.
I know if someone wants me to change and they encourage that change by throwing rocks at me and trying to set me on fire, I might not be open to that change and might resist that change. Humans are stubborn.
Anyway, it was a thought I had when reading your post about the terrorist.

 

[bdb13]

That is an interesting point. Something I have not thought of. While I am generally on the side of the police, I am good friends with a good number, even they will admit there are bad cops and they need to be purged. Actually, I think you will find the majority of all Americans agree with you on that.
Another side of the coin, besides the fact that most of the time, they are dealing with the worst of the worst of our society, is that vilifying someone or something generally does not encourage change. Instead of vilifing the police, maybe BLM should support the police. Help clean up communities they give lip service too ask for better police. Better training, better pay to attract better people.
I know if someone wants me to change and they encourage that change by throwing rocks at me and trying to set me on fire, I might not be open to that change and might resist that change. Humans are stubborn.
Anyway, it was a thought I had when reading your post about the terrorist.

So I would imagine that if you asked most cops directly 'should a dirty/corrupt cop be fired?' most of them would probably say yes. I think that's where the culture thing or whatever you want to call it comes into play, and where there is at times too much of a tendency towards backing an officer versus objectively looking at a situation and what unfolded.

I think police unions are probably a pretty big part of that problem, and I generally believe that you shouldn't have unions for public jobs and I think the extent to which the brotherhood thing is applied, even down to the basic letting of fellow officer out of a speeding ticket, lends itself towards a culture of protecting the officer over the public interest.

It can be a very difficult and stressful job there's no doubt about that and I am sure that the current climate and dealing with violence at the protests can affect how a good cop views their world, I get that.. ultimately though it's not an us-versus-them situation and a little self-analysis on everyone's part would probably do a bit of good in helping both sides to understand one another.

But like you said, humans are stubborn.

 

[SFIDC3]

That is an interesting point. Something I have not thought of. While I am generally on the side of the police, I am good friends with a good number, even they will admit there are bad cops and they need to be purged. Actually, I think you will find the majority of all Americans agree with you on that.

Some good points here. It is easy to admit there are bad cops and they need to be purged. It has been shown time and time again that it is very difficult to purge these bad cops for any number of reasons (most of them nefarious). When it becomes very obvious that there is a systematic problem (thanks Oye) and people are being abused, unduly harassed and even killed (needlessly) then folks are eventually going to react (some peacefully, others not). I agree with the strategy of better people, better pay, I also agree they have a very difficult job, and they are tasked with too much.

I also agree that people are stubborn...

 

[zztop]

I'm just going to put this here



This is the response by the ACLU

 

[insidejob]

This is a long but enlightening thread. Worthwhile read for sure.



ETA: The whole essay can be read here. The snippets are a lot, so I'm going to have to go back and read the whole thing when I have the free time .

https://medium.com/ @OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastage-cop-bb14d17bc759

The link won't load right on here for some reason, so just copy and paste this into your browser and remove the space before the @ symbol. (Must be because of the word bastage in the link. Change that bastage to what it should be as well.)

 

[cuddlemonkey]

This is a long but enlightening thread. Worthwhile read for sure.



ETA: The whole essay can be read here. The snippets are a lot, so I'm going to have to go back and read the whole thing when I have the free time .

https://medium.com/ @OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastage-cop-bb14d17bc759

The link won't load right on here for some reason, so just copy and paste this into your browser and remove the space before the @ symbol. (Must be because of the word bastage in the link. Change that bastage to what it should be as well.)

Here you go: Working link

 

[insidejob]

Here you go: Working link

Why didn't I think of that? Thanks for the assist.

 

[Eeyore]

Agreed, there are bad apples (more than a few, to be sure), then there are complicit apples that enable the bad apples. The complicit apples are too many to count....It really is disgraceful....

I don't care for their bad apples statement.

A few bad apples among cops = A valid institution?

A few bad apples among protesters = Thugs?

 

[SFIDC3]

I don't care for their bad apples statement.

A few bad apples among cops = A valid institution?

A few bad apples among protesters = Thugs?

I agree, the complicit apples are also bad...if not apples lets call them grapes because as you state above it is really an apples to grapes comparison? In scope/context mind you....