Law Enforcement Reform Thread (formerly Defund the Police) (3 Viewers)

[First Time Poster]

So I got busy the other day with the intention to revisit this topic and answer some of the responses put forward but I realized the thread was deleted. But, I felt we had good dialogue happening before I left so I wanted to restart the topic to get the conversation going again. We started some dialogue about it on the liberal board but I feel this topic transcends party lines so I'm making a MCB thread. Post #2, or my next post, is the post I made on the liberal board when asked to elaborate how I felt.

 

[brandon]

Yes, I have met ahole cops before as well.

Quick follow-up. Were you also black when you met them?

 

[Farb]

Quick follow-up. Were you also black when you met them?

No. I don't do black face. I am not a high ranking Democrat.

 

[brandon]

No. I don't do black face. I am not a high ranking Democrat.

So then we can safely assume that your experience of dealing with "ahole cops" is not the same experience as that of @First Time Poster, despite your attempts to dismiss his story by equating your personal experience with his.

I have also dealt with ahole cops in my life. More than once. And it's not the same as a black person's experience. It's just not.

 

[Farb]

So you were black when you dealt to those cops? Was it white cops or black cops? How are you sure it is not the same experience? Because you were told that it was not? Who told you?
Or, are you assuming the moral high ground becasue you can use the leftist/BLM platitudes and recite the doctrine where everything has to be racist.

 

[brandon]

So you were black when you dealt to those cops? Was it white cops or black cops? How are you sure it is not the same experience? Because you were told that it was not? Who told you?
Or, are you assuming the moral high ground becasue you can use the leftist/BLM platitudes and recite the doctrine where everything has to be racist.

The doctrine thing for sure.

 

[Farb]

The doctrine thing for sure.

Refreshing and mature conversation. Thanks for that. I am going to go now and talk to different people.

 

[brandon]

Refreshing and mature conversation. Thanks for that. I am going to go now and talk to different people.

Is that sarcasm? I’ve been wrong before so I’ll wait for clarification.

 

[Saintamaniac]

So you were black when you dealt to those cops? Was it white cops or black cops? How are you sure it is not the same experience? Because you were told that it was not? Who told you?
Or, are you assuming the moral high ground becasue you can use the leftist/BLM platitudes and recite the doctrine where everything has to be racist.

You are perfectly illustrating exactly what I talked about in my post.

 

[Farb]

You are perfectly illustrating exactly what I talked about in my post.

Falling for trolls? Yeah, I agree. Other than that, what else or was that it?

 

[brandon]

Falling for trolls? Yeah, I agree. Other than that, what else or was that it?

Wait. Are you suggesting that I was the troll in that interaction?

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Yes, I have met ahole cops before as well.

I'm going to use this as a jumping off point for a bunch of random thoughts that I've had while reading the past couple of days worth of posts.

I don't feel like going back and finding the original post talking about why aren't their videos of white people being shot by police, but the fact is there are videos of cops shooting white people. Lots of them. This one is floating around right now. [warning it's graphic] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...an-shot-dead-cop-answering-door-gun-hand.html

Now, the guy was armed, but he was answering the door at almost 11PM at night and he had his gun behind his back and he was shot by a cop in the back as he was starting to kneel within seconds.

There are other videos as well. When BLM first started, I would follow some twitter accounts and they would highlight white people being shot by police as well, and ask things like "Where's the All Lives Matter folks now? Don't worry, we'll roll for [white victim's name] as well..."

Which brings me back to my point (I'm pretty sure I have one) and Farb's post. For the most part, white people don't believe we are targeted because we are white. When we see or hear about a white person being killed by cops, we find all the reasons that this probably won't happen to us (ie, he was drunk, he was yelling, the cop was having a bad day, imperfect info, or whatever). We can look at the statistics, and know that this is highly unlikely going to happen to us. If we have a bad experience with a cop, we just write it off as a one off.

That is not the experience for so many black Americans. When they tell us that they feel targeted because of their skin color, why not try believing that this is actually how they genuinely feel and that they don't feel that way because the media is deceiving them. Try to actively solve the problem - whether it's a current problem of inherent bias in policing, or a residual effect of decades of racism that leave the black community distrustful of the police.

 

[Ayo]

That is not the experience for so many black Americans. When they tell us that they feel targeted because of their skin color, why not try believing that this is actually how they genuinely feel and that they don't feel that way because the media is deceiving them. Try to actively solve the problem - whether it's a current problem of inherent bias in policing, or a residual effect of decades of racism that leave the black community distrustful of the police.

Yes. I am really not sure what I can add to what FTP wrote and you follow up with here.

But that's also never stopped me before

I am not going to spend any time trying to discredit the experience anyone else has when I say this - but in the neighborhood I grew up in, the work experience, the research, etc I've had the opportunity to work alongside a number of Black people, and many of them poor.

That's my direct experience - the indirect experience, through quantitative and qualitative research is more vast.

And across all of that, one trend that is *definitely* established is the experience of harassment, belittling, violence, racism, etc of blacks compared to whites.

I've had a couple of a-hole cop experiences, that deal with race.

When I was a teenager, me and two friends were pulled over by cops who refused to believe we were in his truck to pick up some stuff from my mom's school in North Lake Charles. Held us in the road for 45 minutes, threatening to shoot us if we so much as turned our heads. Why? We were white and only in that part of town for drugs or whores. And he demanded to know which one.

The second time, I was on my way to work at Capitol High in Baton Rouge. I was pulled over for speeding, but the cop didn't give me a ticket. Part of the reason was that I was probably going to deal with more criminals that day than him.

Capitol HS is all black, in the shadow of the State Capitol.

So, race played a role in each of these, and these cops were both a-holes. But it's nothing compared to what many - most, probably - Blacks would counter with across their experience.

I heard it from the incarcerated kids - and you may be thinking, "Well, of course, they are in prison so their perspective is going to be negative and filled with cops."

True. But that doesn't mean each of those was valid (they weren't).

But it's also 'good' Black kids I've worked with - no history of breaking the law, no priors, no record, 'good' part of town, good school, etc.

"But it's just kids."

It's not - adults, professionals.

A colleague walked to pick up his kids - Black - the week he was on vacation. On the third day, the same corner, a cop was there asking what he was doing because people saw this 'stranger' at the same street corner.

Another colleage - Black administrator - she gets pulled over about one every couple of months driving in her own neighborhood or other nicer neighborhoods. "Is this your car?" is often the first question. She's in a suit and driving a BMW.

"Oh, but these all get magnified by the media and so people get scared by something imaginary."

Again, I disagree. These stories are handed down, generation to generation. These generations go way back before social media and smart phones. Hell, it goes back to before television media.

You think Ralph Ellison wrote what he did in Invisible Man because he saw a video in a tweet about a cop pulling over black kids? You can ask a Black parent if they've had 'the talk' with their kids. And they'll ask you, in return, "Which one?" Generally speaking, for white kids, 'the talk' means the same, one thing. For Black families, it's the same two things. And if the one talk for white kids and parents is so important, so integral then imagine how important it must be for black families to also have a second "the talk"

There's history here and too often I see people trying to excuse it or falsely equivocate or deny or rationalize or etc. And that only serves to ensure that it will continue happening.

 

[wardorican]

Wait. Are you suggesting that I was the troll in that interaction?

I wouldn't say that, but I would say that he asked a question to First Time Poster, even if we think it's a stupid question, we should let FTP handle it.

We don't have to take all the bait.

 

[brandon]

I wouldn't say that, but I would say that he asked a question to First Time Poster, even if we think it's a stupid question, we should let FTP handle it.

We don't have to take all the bait.

You realize that's a wholly unrealistic guideline for a discussion forum, correct?

Edit: Not the bait part, but the expectation to only reply if someone has specifically addressed you.

 

[wardorican]

Yes. I am really not sure what I can add to what FTP wrote and you follow up with here.

But that's also never stopped me before

I am not going to spend any time trying to discredit the experience anyone else has when I say this - but in the neighborhood I grew up in, the work experience, the research, etc I've had the opportunity to work alongside a number of Black people, and many of them poor.

That's my direct experience - the indirect experience, through quantitative and qualitative research is more vast.

And across all of that, one trend that is *definitely* established is the experience of harassment, belittling, violence, racism, etc of blacks compared to whites.

I've had a couple of a-hole cop experiences, that deal with race.

When I was a teenager, me and two friends were pulled over by cops who refused to believe we were in his truck to pick up some stuff from my mom's school in North Lake Charles. Held us in the road for 45 minutes, threatening to shoot us if we so much as turned our heads. Why? We were white and only in that part of town for drugs or whores. And he demanded to know which one.

The second time, I was on my way to work at Capitol High in Baton Rouge. I was pulled over for speeding, but the cop didn't give me a ticket. Part of the reason was that I was probably going to deal with more criminals that day than him.

Capitol HS is all black, in the shadow of the State Capitol.

So, race played a role in each of these, and these cops were both a-holes. But it's nothing compared to what many - most, probably - Blacks would counter with across their experience.

I heard it from the incarcerated kids - and you may be thinking, "Well, of course, they are in prison so their perspective is going to be negative and filled with cops."

True. But that doesn't mean each of those was valid (they weren't).

But it's also 'good' Black kids I've worked with - no history of breaking the law, no priors, no record, 'good' part of town, good school, etc.

"But it's just kids."

It's not - adults, professionals.

A colleague walked to pick up his kids - Black - the week he was on vacation. On the third day, the same corner, a cop was there asking what he was doing because people saw this 'stranger' at the same street corner.

Another colleage - Black administrator - she gets pulled over about one every couple of months driving in her own neighborhood or other nicer neighborhoods. "Is this your car?" is often the first question. She's in a suit and driving a BMW.

"Oh, but these all get magnified by the media and so people get scared by something imaginary."

Again, I disagree. These stories are handed down, generation to generation. These generations go way back before social media and smart phones. Hell, it goes back to before television media.

You think Ralph Ellison wrote what he did in Invisible Man because he saw a video in a tweet about a cop pulling over black kids? You can ask a Black parent if they've had 'the talk' with their kids. And they'll ask you, in return, "Which one?" Generally speaking, for white kids, 'the talk' means the same, one thing. For Black families, it's the same two things. And if the one talk for white kids and parents is so important, so integral then imagine how important it must be for black families to also have a second "the talk"

There's history here and too often I see people trying to excuse it or falsely equivocate or deny or rationalize or etc. And that only serves to ensure that it will continue happening.

Not to deflect from what you're saying, but the guy picking up his kids also gets the extra hit of being a man. I would walk out with my step daughter to the bus stop when she was younger. There were a couple dads, but mostly Mom's. So, I got to know them, they knew who I was. The bus driver knew who I was and who my wife was (she usually was there in the afternoons).

But, if any new guy, or in one case, an old man (like a grandpa) was walking around or watching the kids, the mom's immediately went into panic mode thinking he must be a pedophile or something weird.

I'm like, well, sure, maybe, but he also could be a grandpa of one of the kids, or he's just new to the neighborhood and is kinda lonely and likes seeing happy faces. Maybe he's watching his 'lawn'. I dunno. But while I'd pay attention to the new person, I'm not panicking or going into full threat mode.

Mom's do.

Men, around kids, are always seen as a threat until they can prove that they are not.

 

[Ayo]

Not to deflect from what you're saying, but the guy picking up his kids also gets the extra hit of being a man. I would walk out with my step daughter to the bus stop when she was younger. There were a couple dads, but mostly Mom's. So, I got to know them, they knew who I was. The bus driver knew who I was and who my wife was (she usually was there in the afternoons).

But, if any new guy, or in one case, an old man (like a grandpa) was walking around or watching the kids, the mom's immediately went into panic mode thinking he must be a pedophile or something weird.

I'm like, well, sure, maybe, but he also could be a grandpa of one of the kids, or he's just new to the neighborhood and is kinda lonely and likes seeing happy faces. Maybe he's watching his 'lawn'. I dunno. But while I'd pay attention to the new person, I'm not panicking or going into full threat mode.

Mom's do.

Men, around kids, are always seen as a threat until they can prove that they are not.

I should clarify - the intersection wasn't next to the school. It was on the way to the school - a few blocks away. So he wasn't 'around kids' or the school at the time. It was by businesses in the area.

 

[SaintForLife]

Let me help you out with what they are trying to explain to you by giving you a personal experience.

So, earlier this week, one of my college friends (black man) calls me. I could tell in his voice he sounded upset so immediately I asked was it his brother. For clarity, his brother was hospitalized last week for serious health issues and while hospitalized he tested positive for Covid. So, already, I'm thinking, oh crap, this isn't good.

He says no, its not his brother, he's doing better, and then he bursts into tears. Whoa! I've never seen/heard this dude cry before. I'm like bro what's going on?! So, long story short, since his brother tested positive and he had been in proximity to him they advised he should get tested. In his town, they recently changed testing sites and he wasn't familiar with where the new place is at. So, he's driving to the site and he unknowingly makes a wrong turn and ends up on a one-way street.

When he realizes it, he pulls off to the side to quickly glance at his navigation so he can turn around and correct course. He said the street was empty. Before he can adjust, an officer rushes up behind him. He says the officer very aggressively starts berating him for being on the one-way incorrectly, telling him how he could kill someone and then asking what he is doing and where he is going, all the while swearing and using escalating quips like "tell me why I shouldn't arrest your dumbass right now?!"

When the officer finally allows him to speak and explain himself, he said he realized he had one shot to attempt to de-escalate the situation himself. So he lowered his voice, calmed his tone, told the officer that he is just trying to find the testing site, explained about his brother, and essentially started pleading and begging the officer for help with directions.

He said the officer took a step back, sighed like he was annoyed, and told him how to get there. He said he held out his elbow for a Covid handshake and told the officer thank you very much to which the officer responded, "just get your arse off this one way and get to where you are going please."

This isn't about statistics. It's not about "white" cops killing black men. It's about our society not valuing, devaluing even, black life. Yall (average white Americans) still just don't get it. The severity of the issue. It's so much larger than not wanting a cop kneeling on my neck until I die. Why should my friend have to endure that kind of treatment? Why should I? That man grew up poor like I did. Poorer even. Attended under funded public schools like I did. Against the odds made great grades, went to college, has four degrees, including a doctorate. Is a filmmaker and a writer. No criminal record. Calling me on a random arse Tuesday, crying, a grown man reduced to tears, because he's tired. Tired of being treated like this. Tired of having to live like this. And for what? Turning down a one-way accidentally? For being black?

There is a scene in the movie "The Help" that always sticks with me. Aibileen starts telling the story of how her son died and she says, "Anniversary of his death comes every year, I can't breathe, but to yall it's just another day of bridge."



That's how I feel lately explaining the black experience in this country. There is this burden, this cloud, this shadow, this fear, this smothering weight that just follows you everywhere but for yall it's Tuesday. It started out as just Tuesday for my friend. It didn't end that way. Most days never do. My friend is stressed lately. What if he misspoke or spoke out of frustration, depression or anger? What if he was legally carrying? What if he had a record?

BLM is so much bigger than what people make it about. I'm tired. To live like this. But carry on, play bridge.

I prefaced my previous post by saying: "I do believe there does need to be police reform and blacks are unfairly targeted by police." I also think that minorities, especially blacks, aren't treated fairly in the criminal justice system which is yet a reason to end the war on drugs and have drug legalization. I know that the police are more likely to use violence toward blacks. I know that many blacks are victims of unfair profilng and harassment by police. I truly believe those things, support police reform including ending qualified immunity, but I also recognize the media sensationalizes some of the police violence without proper context.

I agree with Farb that I've also come across ahole police. That doesn't excuse what I talked about above, but sometimes it might just be the cop is an ahole.

 

[brandon]

That doesn't excuse what I talked about above, but sometimes it might just be the cop is an ahole.

Can’t we reform aholes, even if they aren’t racist?

Do you think it’s ok for the protect and serve team to be aholes?