Civil War 2? (2 Viewers)

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    Optimus Prime

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    Very sobering article
    ================
    If you know people still in denial about the crisis of American democracy, kindly remove their heads from the sand long enough to receive this message: A startling new finding by one of the nation’s top authorities on foreign civil wars says we are on the cusp of our own.

    Barbara F. Walter, a political science professorat the University of California at San Diego, serves on a CIA advisory panel called the Political Instability Task Force that monitors countries around the world and predicts which of them are most at risk of deteriorating into violence.

    By law, the task force can’t assess what’s happening within the United States, but Walter, a longtime friend who has spent her career studying conflicts in Syria, Lebanon, Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, Rwanda, Angola, Nicaragua and elsewhere, applied the predictive techniques herself to this country.

    Her bottom line: “We are closer to civil war than any of us would like to believe.” She lays out the argument in detail in her must-read book, “How Civil Wars Start,” out in January. “No one wants to believe that their beloved democracy is in decline, or headed toward war,” she writes.

    But, “if you were an analyst in a foreign country looking at events in America — the same way you’d look at events in Ukraine or the Ivory Coast or Venezuela — you would go down a checklist, assessing each of the conditions that make civil war likely.

    And what you would find is that the United States, a democracy founded more than two centuries ago, has entered very dangerous territory.”

    Indeed, the United States has already gone through what the CIA identifies as the first two phases of insurgency — the “pre-insurgency” and “incipient conflict” phases — and only time will tell whether the final phase, “open insurgency,” began with the sacking of the Capitol by Donald Trump supporters on Jan. 6.

    Things deteriorated so dramatically under Trump, in fact, that the United States no longer technically qualifies as a democracy. Citing the Center for Systemic Peace’s “Polity” data set — the one the CIA task force has found to be most helpful in predicting instability and violence — Walter writes that the United States is now an “anocracy,” somewhere between a democracy and an autocratic state.

    U.S. democracy had received the Polity index’s top score of 10, or close to it, for much of its history. But in the five years of the Trump era, it tumbled precipitously into the anocracy zone; by the end of his presidency, the U.S. score had fallen to a 5, making the country a partial democracy for the first time since 1800.

    “We are no longer the world’s oldest continuous democracy,” Walter writes. “That honor is now held by Switzerland, followed by New Zealand, and then Canada. We are no longer a peer to nations like Canada, Costa Rica, and Japan, which are all rated a +10 on the Polity index.”…….

    Others have reached similar findings. The Stockholm-based International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance put the United States on a list of “backsliding democracies” in a report last month.

    “The United States, the bastion of global democracy, fell victim to authoritarian tendencies itself," the report said.

    And a new survey by the academic consortium Bright Line Watch found that 17 percent of those who identify strongly as Republicans support the use of violence to restore Trump to power, and 39 percent favor doing everything possible to prevent Democrats from governing effectively……



     
    Wasn't sure what thread to put this in
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    (The Hill) – A majority of Americans say the U.S. government is corrupt and almost a third say it may soon be necessary to take up arms against it, according to a new poll from the University of Chicago’s Institute of Politics.

    Two-thirds of Republicans and independents say the government is “corrupt and rigged against everyday people like me,” according to the poll, compared to 51 percent of liberal voters.

    Twenty-eight percent of all voters, including 37 percent of gun owners, agreed “it may be necessary at some point soon for citizens to take up arms against the government,” a view held by around 35 percent of Republicans and around 35 percent of Independents. One in five Democrats concurred.

    The findings come after a House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, riots at the U.S. Capitol wrapped up its final hearing for the summer, seeking to place former President Trump at the heart of efforts to overturn the 2020 election...........

     
    Wasn't sure what thread to put this in
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    (The Hill) – A majority of Americans say the U.S. government is corrupt and almost a third say it may soon be necessary to take up arms against it, according to a new poll from the University of Chicago’s Institute of Politics.

    Two-thirds of Republicans and independents say the government is “corrupt and rigged against everyday people like me,” according to the poll, compared to 51 percent of liberal voters.

    Twenty-eight percent of all voters, including 37 percent of gun owners, agreed “it may be necessary at some point soon for citizens to take up arms against the government,” a view held by around 35 percent of Republicans and around 35 percent of Independents. One in five Democrats concurred.

    The findings come after a House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, riots at the U.S. Capitol wrapped up its final hearing for the summer, seeking to place former President Trump at the heart of efforts to overturn the 2020 election...........

    The next J6 type attack on the government should be met with the full force of the military. The people attacking the capitol should have been gunned down and would have been had they been a different shade.
     
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    The next J6 type attack on the government should be met with the full force of the military. The people attacking the capitol should have been gunned down and would have been had they been a different shade.

    it may very well happen....

     
    The next J6 type attack on the government should be met with the full force of the military. The people attacking the capitol should have been gunned down and would have been had they been a different shade.

    Yup, I sure hope Bannon is locked up real soon….he and his ilk are the true danger to this country….
     
    That can't be legal.

    He, like his pal, likes to talk with "ambiguity" - never succinct, never direct. Therefore, leaves a good bit of room for several "interpretations" of which 1-2 are benign.

    At this point, anyone who listens to or follows Bannon or Trumps words are simply to dumb to understand the con, or completely brainwashed into thinking what they are saying is valid.
     
    There are words that refuse to coexist lightly. “Civil” and “war” are two of them.

    However, these words are being heard together incessantly in the United States. And these are not the jeremiads of a handful of extremists: they have resounded in the mouths of congressmen over the course of the six weeks of hearings held by the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th attack on the United States Capitol, as well among the insurgents who participated in the assault and supporters of Donald Trump who jumped off the train that was heading at full speed towards a coup d’état.

    They are also appearing more frequently in essays and in media and academic articles, as well as in speeches by moderate politicians.

    It may sound exaggerated - and it would not be unusual if it did: simplifying and exaggerating are national sports in this society - but, argues Barbara F. Walter, professor of political science at the University of California, it may also have seemed absurd during the months or years leading up to conflicts erupting in the places she studies - from Yugoslavia to Syria to Iraq – in order to understand what has led to violence repeatedly breaking out over the past three decades, and the lessons that can be learned to prevent it from happening again.

    “As I was engaged in that work, I realized something disturbing: the signs of instability that we identify in other countries are the same ones that I have begun to see in my own country,” she writes in How Civil Wars Start.

    Walter chooses her words carefully. And it is grimly persuasive when, for example, she argues that the United States meets the two requirements that are most repeated when fratricidal conflict is imminent. Firstly, the US has fallen into the group of countries that Virginia think tank the Center for Systemic Peace terms as “anocracies,” nations whose system of governance falls somewhere between a democracy and an autocratic state: two systems that, for diametrically opposed reasons, never slide into civil war, Walter notes.

    The second risk factor arises when political parties begin to organize themselves on either side of red lines based on “race, religion or identity,” features that Walter says can be observed in the cultural war being waged by Republicans and Democrats. In her view, “the attack on the Capitol and the politicization of the use of masks during the pandemic” are two manifestations of something that comes from further afield: “In the last decade, inequality has grown and our institutions have weakened [citizen trust is at historic lows, according to a survey released this week by Gallup]. Americans are increasingly captive to demagogues, via their screens and via their governments.” And what is of even more concern in the short-term: “Violent extremist groups, especially those of the radical right, are more robust than ever, although their growth may seem imperceptible.”

    Essayist Stephen Marche, author of The Next Civil War. Dispatches from the American Future, a provocative work of “speculative nonfiction” from its opening paragraphs, believes: “The United States is coming to an end. The question is how.” Marche recalls a telephone conversation during which Foreign Policy magazine “In the aftermath of the election of Donald Trump, asked a group of national security experts to evaluate the chances of a civil war in the next 10 to 15 years.”

    “The consensus stood at 35%,” he says. “A 2019 Georgetown University poll asked registered voters how close they believed the country was to the brink of civil war, on a scale of 0 to 100. Their median response was 67.23 points.”

    What took place between one survey and the more pessimistic one is, of course, the presidency of Donald Trump, which he rang in by stating on the steps of the Capitol: “This American carnage stops right here and stops right now.”

    His successor, Joe Biden, confessed to a congressman shortly before Election Day: “I certainly hope this works. If not, I’m not sure we’re going to have a country.” Biden’s admonition is echoed by Jonathan Martin and Alexander Burns in the recently published This Will Not Pass: Trump, Biden and the Battle for America’s Future...............

     
    Wasn't sure what thread to put this in
    ==========================


    (The Hill) – A majority of Americans say the U.S. government is corrupt and almost a third say it may soon be necessary to take up arms against it, according to a new poll from the University of Chicago’s Institute of Politics.

    Two-thirds of Republicans and independents say the government is “corrupt and rigged against everyday people like me,” according to the poll, compared to 51 percent of liberal voters.

    Twenty-eight percent of all voters, including 37 percent of gun owners, agreed “it may be necessary at some point soon for citizens to take up arms against the government,” a view held by around 35 percent of Republicans and around 35 percent of Independents. One in five Democrats concurred.

    The findings come after a House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, riots at the U.S. Capitol wrapped up its final hearing for the summer, seeking to place former President Trump at the heart of efforts to overturn the 2020 election...........


    The frustrating thing is that they're not entirely wrong.

    We're not a representative democracy anymore. By any metric you like, we're a plutocracy. The rich get what they want, us plebes get what we're given.

    The answer, however, isn't armed violence. It's voting. Voting is a hell of a lot easier than packing up a rifle and marching. Voting (stupidly) got us into this mess and voting (intelligently) can get us out of it. It's on US.
     


    .....Whether Crowder meant “war” literally is somewhat immaterial; after January 6, we know messages urging individuals to rise to the defense of Republicans against a vast liberal conspiracy can mobilize violent actors who are all too real. If you really believed that the US government were controlled by shadowy forces who hate you, wouldn’t you act to try and save your beloved president from their clutches?

    The posters on Patriots.win, a radical pro-Trump web forum, are thinking along these lines. “They’re treating it as a hot civil war,” one poster writes in the thread on the Mar-a-Lago raid. “When this is all said and done, the people responsible for these tyrannical actions need to be hanged, and memorialized with statues of loafers and high heels cast in bronze in their home towns.”

    The most popular response in the thread is much shorter, just three words long: “lock and load.”........

     
    President Joe Biden privately met with a group of historians at the White House last week who warned him about ongoing threats to democracy, The Washington Post reported Wednesday.

    Sources familiar with the August 4 meeting, which was said to have lasted nearly two hours, told the outlet the experts described the current moment as among the most dangerous to democracy in modern history.

    The people in the meeting were said to have included the Princeton University history professor Sean Wilentz, the University of Virginia historian Allida Black, the journalist Anne Applebaum, and the presidential historian Michael Beschloss. Speechwriters for Biden, including Vinay Reddy and Jon Meacham, and the White House senior advisor Anita Dunn were also said to have attended.

    The small group almost exclusively discussed totalitarianism around the world and threats to American democracy, according to the Post.

    The outlet reported the scholars compared the current state of affairs to the era that preceded the American Civil War, as well as the period before World War II when fascist movements emerged, specifically noting Abraham Lincoln's 1860 election and President Franklin D. Roosevelt's 1940 election.............

     
    Dr Garen Wintemute used to laugh off warnings of a civil war coming to America as “crazy talk”. Then the emergency room doctor in California saw the figures for gun sales.

    Wintemute, who founded a centre to research firearms violence after years of treating gunshot wounds, had long observed that the rush to buy weapons came in waves, often around a presidential election. Always it fell back again.

    “Then in January of 2020 gun sales took off. Just an unprecedented surge in purchasing and that surge continued,” he said. “We were aware that, contrary to prior surges, this one wasn’t ending. People are still buying guns like crazy.”

    Many were buying a weapon for the first time.

    Wintemute wanted answers and they stunned him. A survey for his California Firearm Violence Research Center released last month showed that half of Americans expect a civil war in the United States in the next few years. One in five thought political violence was justified in some circumstances. In addition, while almost everyone said it was important for the US to remain a democracy, about 40% said that having a strong leader was more important.

    “Coupled with prior research, these findings suggest a continuing alienation from and mistrust of American democratic society and its institutions. Substantial minorities of the population endorse violence, including lethal violence, to obtain political objectives,” the report concluded.

    Suddenly Wintemute didn’t think talk of a violent civil conflict was so crazy any more.

    The doctor is quick to note that large numbers of those people expecting a civil war say it is only “somewhat likely”. But half of the population even considering such a possibility reflects the failing confidence of large numbers of Americans in a system of government under assault by Donald Trump and a good part of the Republican party.

    The FBI’s search of Trump’s Mar-a-Lago residence earlier this month for classified documents removed from the White House unleashed the latest barrage of threats of violence, this time directed at an institution widely regarded as a bastion of establishment conservatism…….

     
    It’s easy and logical to conclude that the United States today stands as close to the edge of civil war as it has since 1861.

    A broad variety of voices — including Republican and Democratic politicians, academics who study civil strife, and extremists on both ends of the spectrum — now accept the idea that civil war is either imminent or necessary.

    They point to evidence that can seem persuasive: a blizzard of threats against FBI agents, judges, elected officials, school board members and elections supervisors; training camps where heavily armed radicals practice to confront their own government; and polls showing that many Americans expect violent conflict.


    But it’s also easy and logical to conclude that the florid rhetoric from right-wing extremists, the worried warnings in mainstream media, and the hail of threats and individual attacks after this month’s surprise FBI search of Donald Trump’s South Florida mansion add up to something well short of the frightening prospect of civil war.


    People who track such threats say this summer’s violent outbursts against federal officials and government institutions amount to one more concerning surge of rage in a pattern that has persisted throughout the pandemic, spiking after the murder of George Floyd two summers ago.

    But the Anti-Defamation League and other watchdog groups are not seeing the kind of specific planning by private militias and online assemblages of radicals that was evident before last year’s Jan. 6 insurrection and the white-supremacist march in Charlottesville in 2017.

    “We are living in a country where disinformation, conspiracy thinking and lies have resulted in deadly attacks,” said Oren Segal, vice president of the ADL’s Center on Extremism.

    “It’s not exactly kumbaya in this society. But we have been going through this for a long time now, and I don’t see people coming together in the more coherent organizing we saw prior to Jan. 6.”

    Contrast that perspective with that of Stephen Marche, author of “The Next Civil War: Dispatches From the American Future,” who posits that as extremists’ threats have become more lurid and specific, their rhetoric has leached into the mainstream — leading, for example, the Texas state government to spell out instances in which it would defy federal authority and the Texas Republican Party to declare President Biden the “acting president” and seek a voter referendum on seceding from the United States.

    When he sees small groups of armed men training for combat against government agents, Marche, a Canadian novelist, wants to ring warning bells.

    “The alarm is getting much more serious, and it’s accelerating very quickly,” he said. “The kind of chaos I’m describing is like internet rage: You could take it as playacting or it could be deadly serious. It could be weekend fun or actual military preparation.”

    He, along with some other analysts on the left, right and in between, thinks the current noise is a strong indicator that a hot civil war — one likely to feature bombings, assassinations and other assaults on federal institutions and officials — may be imminent…..

     
    Over 40 percent of Americans believe the country is headed toward civil war within the next 10 years, while nearly everyone believes political divisions have gotten worse since the start of 2021.

    Forty-three percent of adults overall believe the nation will fight a civil war within the next 10 years and 35 percent believe civil war is not very likely or not at all likely, while 22 percent responded 'not sure,' according to a new Economist-YouGov poll.

    Self-identified 'strong Republicans' were the most likely to believe the nation is headed toward bloody strife - 21 percent believe civil war is 'very likely' within the next 10 years, while 33 percent believe it is somewhat likely.

    Fourteen percent of 'strong Democrats' responded that civil war within the decade was 'very likely' while 26 percent said it was somewhat likely.

    Sixty-six percent of Americans believe political violence has increased since the start of 2021 while 17 percent believe it has stayed the same and eight percent think it has decreased.

    Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say the nation has become more politically divided - 79 percent to 59 percent..............

     
    People need to quit this idiotic civil war talk. This isn’t a geographical divide, like North vs South. This thread lays it out pretty well:

     
    People need to quit this idiotic civil war talk. This isn’t a geographical divide, like North vs South. This thread lays it out pretty well:


    Good article
    ===========
    Five years ago, I began to worry about a new American civil war breaking out.

    Despite a recent spate of books and columns that warn such a conflict may be approaching, I am less concerned by that prospect now.


    Back then, I wrote in a series of articles and online discussions for Foreign Policy that I expected to see widespread political violence accompanied by efforts in some states to undermine the authority and abilities of the federal government.

    At an annual lunch of national security experts in Austin, I posed the question of possible civil war and got a consensus of about a one-third chance of such a situation breaking.

    Specifically, I worried that there would be a spate of assassination attempts against politicians and judges. I thought we might see courthouses and other federal buildings bombed.

    I also expected that in some states, right-wing organizations, heavily influenced by white nationalism, would hold conventions to discuss how to defy enforcement of federal laws they disliked, such as those dealing with voting rights.

    Some governors might vow to fire any state employee complying with unwanted federal orders. And I thought it likely that “nullification juries” would start cropping up, refusing to convict right-wingers committing mayhem, such as attacking election officials, no matter what evidence there was.


    We still may see such catastrophes, of course. Our country remains deeply divided. We have a Supreme Court packed with reactionaries. Many right-wingers appear comfortable with threatening violence if things don’t go their way, and a large minority of the members of Congress seems unconcerned with such talk.

    I continue to worry especially about political assassinations, because all that takes is one deranged person and a gun — and our country unfortunately has many of both.

    And yet, for all that, I am less pessimistic than I was back then……..


     
    The US is at "greater risk" of civil conflict than during the 1930s, a presidential biographer says, in part due to a "passionate minority that is putting its own interests ahead of those of the nation."

    In an interview with NPR's "Morning Edition," historian Jon Meacham, who occasionally served as a speechwriter for President Joe Biden, reflected on the current political landscape ahead of contentious midterm elections.

    The Pulitzer Prize-winning biographer, who has an upcoming book about Abraham Lincoln, spoke about how Lincoln set an example by putting democracy ahead of politics......

    Meacham said he thinks that there's a greater chance that the US could see more "civil chaos" now than during the Great Depression, "when there was such a lack of confidence in our institutions."

    "Tragically, I think we will see more of civil chaos. I think we are going to see it with violence," he said. "I do not believe we're going to see the massing of great armies in the way we did in the 19th century. But we are at greater risk of that kind of civil conflict far more, I believe, than we were even in the early 1930s during the Depression, when there was such a lack of confidence in our institutions."

    "And part of it is that there is a passionate minority that is putting its own interests ahead of those of the nation," Meacham continued. "And without the capacity to both vote perhaps against your short-term interest, without the capacity to recognize that there is a larger force that requires your support of the Constitution over your narrow partisan interests, without that, then we will continue to descend into ever greater chaos."............

     
    "And part of it is that there is a passionate minority that is putting its own interests ahead of those of the nation," Meacham continued. "And without the capacity to both vote perhaps against your short-term interest, without the capacity to recognize that there is a larger force that requires your support of the Constitution over your narrow partisan interests, without that, then we will continue to descend into ever greater chaos."............

    That, right there, is what many on the left fail to understand!!! They are in the same mindset as those that are threatening our democracy and that is the "all or nothing" mentality! The right have already escalated public discourse to its breaking point, if you try to fight fire with fire it will all burn down.

    The Biden administration exist because the majority of Democrats recognized what Meacham is describing there and they were more concerned with saving our democracy over getting their way. Today, that majority has split because the far left of the party are no longer content with just righting the ship, they want it all too!
     
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