Civil War 2? (1 Viewer)

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    Optimus Prime

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    Very sobering article
    ================
    If you know people still in denial about the crisis of American democracy, kindly remove their heads from the sand long enough to receive this message: A startling new finding by one of the nation’s top authorities on foreign civil wars says we are on the cusp of our own.

    Barbara F. Walter, a political science professorat the University of California at San Diego, serves on a CIA advisory panel called the Political Instability Task Force that monitors countries around the world and predicts which of them are most at risk of deteriorating into violence.

    By law, the task force can’t assess what’s happening within the United States, but Walter, a longtime friend who has spent her career studying conflicts in Syria, Lebanon, Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, Rwanda, Angola, Nicaragua and elsewhere, applied the predictive techniques herself to this country.

    Her bottom line: “We are closer to civil war than any of us would like to believe.” She lays out the argument in detail in her must-read book, “How Civil Wars Start,” out in January. “No one wants to believe that their beloved democracy is in decline, or headed toward war,” she writes.

    But, “if you were an analyst in a foreign country looking at events in America — the same way you’d look at events in Ukraine or the Ivory Coast or Venezuela — you would go down a checklist, assessing each of the conditions that make civil war likely.

    And what you would find is that the United States, a democracy founded more than two centuries ago, has entered very dangerous territory.”

    Indeed, the United States has already gone through what the CIA identifies as the first two phases of insurgency — the “pre-insurgency” and “incipient conflict” phases — and only time will tell whether the final phase, “open insurgency,” began with the sacking of the Capitol by Donald Trump supporters on Jan. 6.

    Things deteriorated so dramatically under Trump, in fact, that the United States no longer technically qualifies as a democracy. Citing the Center for Systemic Peace’s “Polity” data set — the one the CIA task force has found to be most helpful in predicting instability and violence — Walter writes that the United States is now an “anocracy,” somewhere between a democracy and an autocratic state.

    U.S. democracy had received the Polity index’s top score of 10, or close to it, for much of its history. But in the five years of the Trump era, it tumbled precipitously into the anocracy zone; by the end of his presidency, the U.S. score had fallen to a 5, making the country a partial democracy for the first time since 1800.

    “We are no longer the world’s oldest continuous democracy,” Walter writes. “That honor is now held by Switzerland, followed by New Zealand, and then Canada. We are no longer a peer to nations like Canada, Costa Rica, and Japan, which are all rated a +10 on the Polity index.”…….

    Others have reached similar findings. The Stockholm-based International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance put the United States on a list of “backsliding democracies” in a report last month.

    “The United States, the bastion of global democracy, fell victim to authoritarian tendencies itself," the report said.

    And a new survey by the academic consortium Bright Line Watch found that 17 percent of those who identify strongly as Republicans support the use of violence to restore Trump to power, and 39 percent favor doing everything possible to prevent Democrats from governing effectively……



     
    Does that include mail out ballots that were not requested by the actual voter?
    I don’t think most (maybe not any) places mailed out actual ballots unsolicited - what was mass mailed out were applications for absentee ballots. And all applications, and the mailed ballots themselves had to be matched to actual voter roles, or they weren’t accepted or counted. And they are also checked against death records, which is how several Trump voters were caught voting more than once. You are reading fantasies spun out by right wing radicals. Voter fraud in the US is pretty much evenly divided between the two parties and it’s a handful of votes.

    Ask yourself this - if there was such a huge voter fraud effort on behalf of Biden, why did Rs gain seats in the House? These are the very same ballots. Why not increase their House majority if they’re going to all the trouble to fake that many ballots? It makes no sense. Not to mention that there’s no way such a vast conspiracy involving hundreds of thousands of votes across multiple states could be concealed. Someone would have hard evidence by now - and there isn’t any. Zero.

    The clownish efforts to claim voter fraud are just that - ridiculously easy to debunk. They have all been debunked. But grifters on the right see dollar signs from convincing you and others that US elections are rife with fraud - they are making bank on these lies. You want to believe, and it’s easy for you to believe, I suppose. Cynical people are taking advantage of folks over this.
     
    There were no ballots that were mailed out that were not requested. They mailed out applications for mail-in ballots. The application still had to be turned in with proper identification/information to get a mail-in ballot.
    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/nevada-mail-in-voting-what-to-know

    "Nevada passed a bill earlier this year to become a universal mail-in election state, meaning that all active voters will be sent mail-in ballots without needing to request them. This was done on a party-line vote in the legislature and over the objection of Republican Secretary of State Barbara Cegavske."

    So, no. You are wrong.
     
    I don’t think most (maybe not any) places mailed out actual ballots unsolicited - what was mass mailed out were applications for absentee ballots. And all applications, and the mailed ballots themselves had to be matched to actual voter roles, or they weren’t accepted or counted. And they are also checked against death records, which is how several Trump voters were caught voting more than once. You are reading fantasies spun out by right wing radicals. Voter fraud in the US is pretty much evenly divided between the two parties and it’s a handful of votes.

    Ask yourself this - if there was such a huge voter fraud effort on behalf of Biden, why did Rs gain seats in the House? These are the very same ballots. Why not increase their House majority if they’re going to all the trouble to fake that many ballots? It makes no sense. Not to mention that there’s no way such a vast conspiracy involving hundreds of thousands of votes across multiple states could be concealed. Someone would have hard evidence by now - and there isn’t any. Zero.

    The clownish efforts to claim voter fraud are just that - ridiculously easy to debunk. They have all been debunked. But grifters on the right see dollar signs from convincing you and others that US elections are rife with fraud - they are making bank on these lies. You want to believe, and it’s easy for you to believe, I suppose. Cynical people are taking advantage of folks over this.
    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/states-universal-mail-in-voting-absentee-
    ballot-requests-voting-2020-race

    As the United States prepares to hold an election during a pandemic, the country is expecting an unprecedented number of people to vote by mail as states move to make it easier for people to vote without going to an in-person polling place.

    Rules and procedures vary from state-to-state, with some sending actual ballots to every registered voter, some states sending people absentee ballot applications rather than the ballots themselves and other states requiring people to go online or to an election office to get an absentee ballot application. Some states before 2020 already ran universal mail-in elections quite successfully.
     
    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/nevada-mail-in-voting-what-to-know
    "Nevada passed a bill earlier this year to become a universal mail-in election state, meaning that all active voters will be sent mail-in ballots without needing to request them. This was done on a party-line vote in the legislature and over the objection of Republican Secretary of State Barbara Cegavske."
    So, no. You are wrong.
    You still haven’t explained why this is a problem.
     
    Or that more than one state (NV) even sent out unsolicited absentee ballots - which, when returned had to meet all the requirements of any other absentee ballot. And the article even says they were only sent to registered voters. So, what’s the problem?
     
    Again, are we discussing mass mail out ballots like we did during covid or just have a drop off box?

    Washington has had voting by mail for years. You get a ballot and a voter's pamphlet with every election. There's a drop box by the Jr High in my town, or you can put it in your mailbox or a regular mail box by the post office.
    The ballot is mailed to the address you used when you registered to vote.
    The incidence of fraud is virtually nil.
     
    Or that more than one state (NV) even sent out unsolicited absentee ballots - which, when returned had to meet all the requirements of any other absentee ballot. And the article even says they were only sent to registered voters. So, what’s the problem?
    Why send unrequested ballots out? Even seems like a waste of money, unless there was some type of return on investment.
     
    Washington has had voting by mail for years. You get a ballot and a voter's pamphlet with every election. There's a drop box by the Jr High in my town, or you can put it in your mailbox or a regular mail box by the post office.
    The ballot is mailed to the address you used when you registered to vote.
    The incidence of fraud is virtually nil.
    Do you request them or do the ballots just show up in the mail?
     
    Why send unrequested ballots out? Even seems like a waste of money, unless there was some type of return on investment.

    Based on the article you linked, it's because "Nevada passed a bill earlier this year to become a universal mail-in election state, meaning that all active voters will be sent mail-in ballots without needing to request them."
     
    Do you request them or do the ballots just show up in the mail?

    DC: ballots just show up in the mail.

    It beats the heck out of going to a polling place. It gives people a month to research the small name candidates and local positions. My drop box is located at a library only 3mins walk from my home. There is a security camera pointed at the drop box.
     
    Last edited:
    Is there a need due to covid to keep that in place?
    Why does there have to be a 'need' outside of making it more convenient for people to vote? Unless there is some evidence of fraud (beyond a handful of votes) then I don't see the problem with mail-in ballots, drop-boxes, or whatever. As others have mentioned, I don't see how a drop-box ballot is any less secure than a mail-in absentee ballot -- the latter of which are prevalent in even the most conservative of states. Arguably, the drop-boxes are even more secure because I presume the only person opening them to collect the ballots are the local election employees so you don't have to go through the middle man of the U.S. mail. You also don't have to worry about issues like postmarking because with a drop-box the ballot is timely so long as its in there prior to whatever the last collection cut-off deadline is when they open it up.
     
    So, we all agree that ballots are mailed now, just now applications?
     
    Assuming the election officials check them as they are received I don't see why it matters -- for security purposes -- if they have to be requested or mailed automatically. Unless the argument is 'I only want people voting who put forth some modicum of effort to request a ballot.' And that's not much of an argument. Everyone who is legally eligible should be able to vote... shouldn't matter if they are lazy.
     
    So, we all agree that ballots are mailed now, just now applications?

    Yes. Only in states that have universal mail-in-voting by law, do they mail out ballots to all registered voters. Because how else would they do it. You corrected me on that point.

    In states that don't have universal mail-in voting, some counties mailed out applications for mail in voting during the last election. In states like Texas, they made it illegals for counties to do that now.
     
    Why does there have to be a 'need' outside of making it more convenient for people to vote? Unless there is some evidence of fraud (beyond a handful of votes) then I don't see the problem with mail-in ballots, drop-boxes, or whatever. As others have mentioned, I don't see how a drop-box ballot is any less secure than a mail-in absentee ballot -- the latter of which are prevalent in even the most conservative of states. Arguably, the drop-boxes are even more secure because I presume the only person opening them to collect the ballots are the local election employees so you don't have to go through the middle man of the U.S. mail. You also don't have to worry about issues like postmarking because with a drop-box the ballot is timely so long as its in there prior to whatever the last collection cut-off deadline is when they open it up.
    No problem with absentee ballots, just not a fan of universal mail out ballots. The ability for fraud is there, so why even have a risk at all, if voting is critical, why not make it secure as possible?
    With Drop boxes, you also have ballot harvesting, that yes, does happen.
    Are we that lazy as a society now that putting effort into voting is too much of a inconvenience? Honestly, if you are too lazy to go in person and vote, you should not vote.
    I thought these drop boxes were a temporary 'pandemic' measure. Was that lie as well? It is looking that way.
     

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