Book Burning in America (1 Viewer)

[Roofgardener]

Well, OK.. not really.. no books have actually been BURN.. yet. But.....

Doctor Seuss Enterprises has withdrawn six Dr Seuss books from sale, on the grounds that they where 'racially insensitive imagery'.
Yup.. the Cat in the Hat was a White Nationalist Trumpist Quanon supporter all along !

Well, they have the legal right to do that. However, what happened NEXT is VERY interesting.
The value of those six books skyrocketed on Ebay. So Ebay finally responded by... delisting the books.
It is no longer possible to list any of the six books for sale in the USA. If you try more than once, your account can be penalised.

Now think about this. You can buy Mein Kampf, and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion on Ebay in the USA no problem.
But you aren't ALLOWED to buy "If I ran the zoo".

OK.. this is only six out of the many dozens of books by Dr Seuss.
At the moment.

Is it just me that finds this incredibly authoritarian ?

 

[Roofgardener]

Hey look - I found "If I ran the Zoo" on ebay.

Dr. Suess If I Ran ... the Zoo hardcover book | eBay

This book was never used but I did open it and flip through it once. It is in nearly new condition.

www.ebay.com

Basically, to Rob's point, Ebay doesn't have some magic filter to remove postings. They have a policy and pretty much only removes stuff when they are reported.

This is a really weird track because it doesn't come with a proposed solution. Do you want to force businesses to sell things? We've already had that fight here in the US - the Supreme Court has ruled that you can't force a business to sell anything to anyone - unless they are discriminating against a protected class.

I suspect conservatives know that this is a conundrum, which is why they don't propose a solution, only express "concern". They can't advocate forcing a business to sell what it does not want to -- pretty much everyone is against that idea (liberals tend to want to force a business to not discriminate against who they do business with, not what business they actually participate in). They can't advocate boycotting businesses b/c they've gone down this weird path of mocking "cancel culture", despite being a tool of choice in the past. So what's the end game here?

Look, I know there's this fear that this is a slippery slope that will lead down to total thought control and cessation of a diversity of ideas - which would be very bad. But that's why we keep government out of this - and let the marketplace of ideas fight it out. If "If I Ran the Zoo", has a sustained demand, then a business should be able to start up and continue selling the book on the secondary market. If the demand on that site is great enough, the Seuss estate might reevaluate it's stance in the future and print more copies.

We can but hope !!

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

We can but hope !!

I get the sentiment, but we can do more than hope. We can vigorously defend people who we think are unfairly caught up in "cancel culture", and let the marketplace of ideas judge our efforts. Tell me why "If I Ran the Zoo" should still be sold despite depicting Africans as monkeys and Asians in over the top stereotypes. If you can prove that this particular book has value that outweighs its problems, then maybe you can convince others that it should still be sold. And so on.

Because there are victims in the current culture wars. The New York Times did a really good follow up to the girl at Smith College who accused a campus cop of ticketing her for "eating while black". Made a bunch of headlines here, and so on. Turns out the truth was not what was first reported, and basically no evidence of anyone acting out of racial motivations was found (she was eating in a closed off dormitory, and no one had reported her race when workers noticed that someone was in a restricted area). No one lost their jobs or anything, but reputations were damaged (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/us/smith-college-race.html).

Those sorts of things do happen, and should be guarded against -- but that isn't what is being discussed when these stories pop up. It's a lot of pity party nonsense.

 

[Saintamaniac]

Do you think it should be required by the US government for eBay to sell items it doesn’t want to sell?
Do you think Starbucks should be required to sell Dr. Seuss books?
Do you believe eBay is an arm of the US government?
Has the US government made any requirements that these books not be sold?

If you answered no to all of these questions, then congratulations, you’ve proven this is not, in fact, a ban. It’s a private company deciding what they want to sell.

@Roofgardener knows the answer to each of those questions is a resounding "NO". He might fancy himself to be a contrarian.

This is why I just can't take you seriously. You purposely conflate two completely different things.

This has been a common theme to his posts of late. I'm not going to call him stupid or a liar. I'm just saying he's doing what stupid liars generally do.

I repeat.. doesn't that leave you with any sense of disquiet AT ALL ?

What leaves me with foreboding disquiet is that a good 35%-45% of the people in my country think like you do. That is to say, they have little to no understanding of our constitution nor do they know the difference between government and private industry.

 

[RebSaint]

“Conservatism” seems to have relegated itself to grievance populism to manufacture endless outrage. The problem with this approach is that there are few ideas, policy positions, etc.

Another issue relates to the outrage itself. Often it’s built upon hyperbole, misinformation or lies. So what we end up is the seemingly bizarre position of many on the right appearing to criticize “free market”decision.

 

[Roofgardener]

Just out of curiousity....
You can find a spoken-word video of "If I ran the zoo" here, incorporating the original artwork.


There is a picture of some 'chinese' people at about 4'40", and some African people at 9'30"

Can you honestly say that - in the context of a book with distorted and fantasy graphics - that these are offensive ?

 

[DaveXA]

“Conservatism” seems to have relegated itself to grievance populism to manufacture endless outrage. The problem with this approach is that there are few ideas, policy positions, etc.

Another issue relates to the outrage itself. Often it’s built upon hyperbole, misinformation or lies. So what we end up is the seemingly bizarre position of many on the right appearing to criticize “free market”decision.

Well, I would push back a bit on conservatism, at least in the traditional sense. Trumpism and even a large section of the Republican party, your comments are descriptive. But traditional conservatism isn't characterized by grievance populism. If anything, it's characterized by rugged individualism, patriotism, small government, and capitalism. Much of which is the opposite of grievance populism. We can thank Trump for a lot of the whining and persecution complex coming from Republicans. It's sickening.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Just out of curiousity....
You can find a spoken-word video of "If I ran the zoo" here, incorporating the original artwork.


There is a picture of some 'chinese' people at about 4'40", and some African people at 9'30"

Can you honestly say that - in the context of a book with distorted and fantasy graphics - that these are offensive ?

Are they offensive? Yes.

Would I agree with not selling the book because of it? No.

Do I respect the right of the publisher to decide what they are comfortable distributing? Yes

Am I wasting time responding about something that is manufactured culture war outrage because it has absolutely zero effect on anyone's life? Yes

 

[Roofgardener]

Well then, so be it.

 

[RebSaint]

Another point: I know I’ve made this point before, but this latest version of grievance populism seems to also be more of an extension of the southern strategy. I’ve never seen any outrage, manufactured, or otherwise directed at systematic racism, sexism, or oppression of historical minorities. It’s always directed at some sort of questioning or diminishing that some may perceive to be racist, sexist, etc.

 

[MT15]

Another point: I know I’ve made this point before, but this latest version of grievance populism seems to also be more of an extension of the southern strategy. I’ve never seen any outrage, manufactured, or otherwise directed at systematic racism, sexism, or oppression of historical minorities. It’s always directed at some sort of questioning or diminishing that some may perceive to be racist, sexist, etc.

Exactly this. What baffles me is that this is exceedingly transparent, yet the people pushing this grievance based ideology seem to think that they really have some sort of super valid point. I just don’t get that part.

 

[Frenchconnection]

Funny that you hate capitalism when it doesn't suit you. Kindly explain to the class what government entity is banning books. The rest of your post is incoherent which I guess is some kind of irony.

Please excuse my delay in response, some of us are not waiting for Biden to remember where he put his pen to sign the welfare checks.

So, you back the tech companies banning books and dissent? Okay, I am all for capitalism as long as it is used properly. Banning books, politicians, my wife, and many others is not following the spirit of the 1 amendment. Explain to the class how this is not like the whites only lunch counter? I'll get the popcorn and cushion to break your fall when you are doing your flips.

Question, who said this: We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.
Answer: JFK (democrat)

Is he wrong? [mod edit: this is not a smack board, please read the TOS]

 

[Frenchconnection]

You can repeat it, but doing so, and misspelling it, doesn't change the fact that anti-Semitic and Nazi materials are restricted on eBay, and I've shown you eBay community postings showing you they do indeed remove listings accordingly. And that this applies to eBay in the UK, which has the same offensive materials policy as eBay in the USA, as I literally just told you in the post you're quoting.

Look. eBay USA:

Security Measure

www.ebay.com

eBay UK:

Security measure

www.ebay.co.uk

At this point it appears that you're so sold on the misinformation you've seen that you'll deny sourced, evidenced, reality, rather than accept that you've been misled.

And this isn't rude, any more than showing someone repeatedly insisting that "2+2=5" that "2+2=4" is rude. If it comes across that way, I'd suggest that's a reflection of the content of the quality of your post, rather than the response.

I found it on ebay UK. Ironically, it's listed as coming from America.

What I found was worse than having the book itself, books critiquing Mein Kampf. How stupid is that???

 

[Xeno]

Please excuse my delay in response, some of us are not waiting for Biden to remember where he put his pen to sign the welfare checks.

So, you back the tech companies banning books and dissent? Okay, I am all for capitalism as long as it is used properly. Banning books, politicians, my wife, and many others is not following the spirit of the 1 amendment. Explain to the class how this is not like the whites only lunch counter? I'll get the popcorn and cushion to break your fall when you are doing your flips.

Question, who said this: We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.
Answer: JFK (democrat)

Is he wrong? It's okay, you can come out from your mama's skirt and answer the question.

Corporations and other private entities aren't bound by the 1st amendment. Only the government is. This is basic day 1 high school civics class stuff.

Now take that cushion and kindly sit down.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Wait, books are a protected class? Race, religion, sex and... books?

Are people really that stupid or has the trolling just become that poor?

 

[Xeno]

Wait, books are a protected class? Race, religion, sex and... books?

Are people really that stupid or has the trolling just become that poor?

No but [mod edit] must be. It's the only way the argument holds up.

 

[Frenchconnection]

I've lived in a socialist country and watched four young men go to jail because they wrote and sang an offensive song. Does anyone think its a good idea for government or a private company to decide what is offensive?

 

[Frenchconnection]

Corporations and other private entities aren't bound by the 1st amendment. Only the government is. This is basic day 1 high school civics class stuff.

Now take that cushion and kindly sit down.

What is the difference between this and whites only counters in the cafe?

 

[Xeno]

I've lived in a socialist country and watched four young men go to jail because they wrote and sang an offensive song. Does anyone think its a good idea for government or a private company to decide what is offensive?

Private companies have the 1st amendment right to decide what they sell or don't sell. Nobody is stopping anyone from buying or selling these books.