Book Burning in America (2 Viewers)

[Roofgardener]

Well, OK.. not really.. no books have actually been BURN.. yet. But.....

Doctor Seuss Enterprises has withdrawn six Dr Seuss books from sale, on the grounds that they where 'racially insensitive imagery'.
Yup.. the Cat in the Hat was a White Nationalist Trumpist Quanon supporter all along !

Well, they have the legal right to do that. However, what happened NEXT is VERY interesting.
The value of those six books skyrocketed on Ebay. So Ebay finally responded by... delisting the books.
It is no longer possible to list any of the six books for sale in the USA. If you try more than once, your account can be penalised.

Now think about this. You can buy Mein Kampf, and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion on Ebay in the USA no problem.
But you aren't ALLOWED to buy "If I ran the zoo".

OK.. this is only six out of the many dozens of books by Dr Seuss.
At the moment.

Is it just me that finds this incredibly authoritarian ?

 

[Dragon]

I don't really have an issue with Seuss Enterprises refusing to sell certain books. I think it is unwise, and it fractionally impoverishes our culture, but they are in their right to do so.

What worries me is the likes of Ebay suddenly banning resale of 2nd-hand copies of the book to adults. THAT seems a step too far.

Still, why should I care ? You might have 10 fleet aircraft carriers, and hundreds of jet fighters and bombers. But I, on the other hand, have a copy of "If I Ran the Zoo", so nya nya nya

Ebay is a business just as Seuss Enterprise, with the same rights to chose which items they want to sell or not. And I really don't get your second point

 

[RobF]

Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler (Paperback, 1992) Translated by Ralph Manheim | eBay

<p>Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler (Paperback, 1992) Translated by Ralph Manheim with an introduction D C Watt, which analyses Hitlers background , gives the origins and history of the original book and ends with a critical assessment of Hitlers incoherent ideas and his ruthless understanding of...

www.ebay.co.uk

Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler (Paperback, 2006) for sale online | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler (Paperback, 2006) at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!

www.ebay.co.uk

Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. by Serg'iei Nilus (Paperback / softback, 2009) for sale online | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. by Serg'iei Nilus (Paperback / softback, 2009) at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!

www.ebay.co.uk

One of many, and likewise seems to be a permanent listing ??

These have been listed for - I believe - over a week ?

IF I RAN THE ZOO BY DR SEUSS (NO LONGER IN PRINT) GOOD CONDITION | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for IF I RAN THE ZOO BY DR SEUSS (NO LONGER IN PRINT) GOOD CONDITION at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!

www.ebay.co.uk

(and many others)
This particular one is listed for 9 days. But as I said; there are MANY others.

2+2 = 4

Once more, I ask: Are these available on the USA version of Ebay ?

In the '2+2=4' analogy, what you've done here is shown that 1+3=4 and are now insisting that shows that 2+2=5.

Because if you'd actually looked at the links to community postings about selling Mein Kampf posted earlier, you'd have seen this explanation:
"The ones on sale have just slipped through the net and would be removed if reported"

And because, if you look right now as I've just done, you'll also find copies of "If I Ran the Zoo" on eBay in the USA (and yes, in the USA, not just available to be shipped to the USA).

Because all you've found here is that eBay doesn't have some magic auto-filter that can perfectly distinguish between, for example, restricted copies of Mein Kampf, and permitted critical books about Mein Kampf. Sellers who are willing to click past a warning can still list stuff. But it tends to get removed, either when it gets reported, or when eBay pick up on it themselves. Sometimes it doesn't; not everything gets reported, and eBay don't manually check every listing, obviously, and staff can make errors. But it remains restricted, nonetheless.

Because the thing is, I've shown you eBay's policies. And that's the definitive answer. Your assertion is that eBay has policies against early Dr Seuss books, but no policies at all against Mein Kampf and anti-Semitism. That's the '2+2=5' here. And that is, definitively, false, eBay has policies against Nazi and anti-Semitic material, and you've seen them.

All you're doing now is frantically digging to try to get out of the hole your willingness to believe and share misinformation has put you in. You might want to consider stopping.

 

[Roofgardener]

Ebay is a business just as Seuss Enterprise, with the same rights to chose which items they want to sell or not. And I really don't get your second point

It was a joke. Citizens in the UK can still buy this book !

Mind you, you probably can in the USA, just not (apparantly) from Ebay.

 

[Dragon]

It was a joke. Citizens in the UK can still buy this book !

Mind you, you probably can in the USA, just not (apparantly) from Ebay.

I'm not in the US and yes the book can be bought here as well. But that is besides the point and far from your misleading topic name of this thread.

 

[Roofgardener]

I'm not in the US and yes the book can be bought here as well. But that is besides the point and far from your misleading topic name of this thread.

.. which was explained in the first line of the post ?

Are you ENTIRELY comfortable that the books can be withdrawn from sale, and then banned by Ebay (and I'm guessing Amazon will soon follow suite) in this manner ?

 

[Roofgardener]

In the '2+2=4' analogy, what you've done here is shown that 1+3=4 and are now insisting that shows that 2+2=5.

Because if you'd actually looked at the links to community postings about selling Mein Kampf posted earlier, you'd have seen this explanation:
"The ones on sale have just slipped through the net and would be removed if reported"

And because, if you look right now as I've just done, you'll also find copies of "If I Ran the Zoo" on eBay in the USA (and yes, in the USA, not just available to be shipped to the USA).

Because all you've found here is that eBay doesn't have some magic auto-filter that can perfectly distinguish between, for example, restricted copies of Mein Kampf, and permitted critical books about Mein Kampf.....

Just a quick note: the US government has not banned, or restricted, Mein Kampf. And - I would suggest - neither has Ebay. This is presumably because The Cat in the Hat is a white supremacist, whereas HItler was not ?

 

[RobF]

Just a quick note: the US government has not banned, or restricted, Mein Kampf. And - I would suggest - neither has Ebay. This is presumably because The Cat in the Hat is a white supremacist, whereas HItler was not ?

What are you aiming to achieve by posting non sequiturs and things that have already been shown, repeatedly and beyond doubt, to be false?

 

[Dragon]

.. which was explained in the first line of the post ?

Are you ENTIRELY comfortable that the books can be withdrawn from sale, and then banned by Ebay (and I'm guessing Amazon will soon follow suite) in this manner ?

I have no problems with businesses chosing which products they want to sell. They have that choice the same way that I have a choice to which businesses that I want to support. This is not a ban and definitely does not fit the inflamatory title of this thread.

 

[Roofgardener]

I have no problems with businesses chosing which products they want to sell. They have that choice the same way that I have a choice to which businesses that I want to support. This is not a ban and definitely does not fit the inflamatory title of this thread.

The books have been withdrawn from sale, and have been banned on Ebay.
In what way is this NOT a ban ?

 

[Xeno]

The books have been withdrawn from sale, and have been banned on Ebay.
In what way is this NOT a ban ?

businesses chosing which products they want to sell.

This is why I just can't take you seriously. You purposely conflate two completely different things.


Businesses can choose what they sell and what they don't. That is their 1st amendment right.

They are not obligated to sell something they do not want to.

The government cannot force them to sell or not sell something.

The 1st amendment applies to what THE GOVERNMENT can or cannot make someone do.

The government cannot ban the sale of a book. Ebay is well within their rights to choose not to allow sale of a book on their platform.

 

[Roofgardener]

This is why I just can't take you seriously. You purposely conflate two completely different things.


Businesses can choose what they sell and what they don't. That is their 1st amendment right.

They are not obligated to sell something they do not want to.

The government cannot force them to sell or not sell something.

The 1st amendment applies to what THE GOVERNMENT can or cannot make someone do.

The government cannot ban the sale of a book. Ebay is well within their rights to choose not to allow sale of a book on their platform.

All of which is true. However, doesn't it leave you with ANY sense of disquiet ?
Two weeks ago, it was possible to purchase six particular Seuss books.
Not it is no longer possible. At least, not brand new. And this is NOT because the books where not commercially sucessful, but because of politics.

And the books have been removed from Ebay's list of second-hand books. Even for adults.

I repeat.. doesn't that leave you with any sense of disquiet AT ALL ?

 

[brandon]

The books have been withdrawn from sale, and have been banned on Ebay.
In what way is this NOT a ban ?

Do you think it should be required by the US government for eBay to sell items it doesn’t want to sell?

Do you think Starbucks should be required to sell Dr. Seuss books?

Do you believe eBay is an arm of the US government?

Has the US government made any requirements that these books not be sold?

If you answered no to all of these questions, then congratulations, you’ve proven this is not, in fact, a ban. It’s a private company deciding what they want to sell.

 

[Xeno]

All of which is true. However, doesn't it leave you with ANY sense of disquiet ?
Two weeks ago, it was possible to purchase six particular Seuss books.
Not it is no longer possible. At least, not brand new.

And the books have been removed from Ebay's list of second-hand books. Even for adults.

I repeat.. doesn't that leave you with any sense of disquiet AT ALL ?

No, it doesn't.

Why?

Because Ebay choosing not to allow sales on their platform doesn't stop Amazon from selling them. Or Barnes & Noble. Or Books-a-million. Or any other bookstore or library or anyone else. It doesn't stop me from selling a copy at a garage sale or on Craigslist. It's Ebay's choice alone.

 

[Roofgardener]

Amazing. Just amazing.

 

[brandon]

All of which is true. However, doesn't it leave you with ANY sense of disquiet ?
Two weeks ago, it was possible to purchase six particular Seuss books.
Not it is no longer possible. At least, not brand new. And this is NOT because the books where not commercially sucessful, but because of politics.

And the books have been removed from Ebay's list of second-hand books. Even for adults.

I repeat.. doesn't that leave you with any sense of disquiet AT ALL ?

So now we’ve gone all the way from “It’s a book burning!!!!!” to “Doesn’t this issue give momentary pause to reflect?”

So yea, pretty much proves the inflammatory nature of the thread and this entire situation to begin with.

 

[brandon]

Amazing. Just amazing.

What is?

 

[Xeno]

So now we’ve gone all the way from “It’s a book burning!!!!!” to “Doesn’t this issue give momentary pause to reflect?”

So yea, pretty much proves the inflammatory nature of the thread and this entire situation to begin with.

Manufactured outrage.

Bakery doesn't want to sell cakes to gay couples? That's just free market capitalism and their 1st amendment right. A retailer doesn't want to sell books that the author's estate have themselves called insensitive? Well that's scary.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Hey look - I found "If I ran the Zoo" on ebay.

Dr. Suess If I Ran ... the Zoo hardcover book | eBay

This book was never used but I did open it and flip through it once. It is in nearly new condition.

www.ebay.com

Basically, to Rob's point, Ebay doesn't have some magic filter to remove postings. They have a policy and pretty much only removes stuff when they are reported.

This is a really weird track because it doesn't come with a proposed solution. Do you want to force businesses to sell things? We've already had that fight here in the US - the Supreme Court has ruled that you can't force a business to sell anything to anyone - unless they are discriminating against a protected class.

I suspect conservatives know that this is a conundrum, which is why they don't propose a solution, only express "concern". They can't advocate forcing a business to sell what it does not want to -- pretty much everyone is against that idea (liberals tend to want to force a business to not discriminate against who they do business with, not what business they actually participate in). They can't advocate boycotting businesses b/c they've gone down this weird path of mocking "cancel culture", despite being a tool of choice in the past. So what's the end game here?

Look, I know there's this fear that this is a slippery slope that will lead down to total thought control and cessation of a diversity of ideas - which would be very bad. But that's why we keep government out of this - and let the marketplace of ideas fight it out. If "If I Ran the Zoo", has a sustained demand, then a business should be able to start up and continue selling the book on the secondary market. If the demand on that site is great enough, the Seuss estate might reevaluate it's stance in the future and print more copies.