Bipartisan Infrastructure/3.5T Reconciliation/Gov Funding/Debt Ceiling (1 Viewer)

[coldseat]

Thought it would be good to have a place to discuss all the drama on Capitol Hill and whether Democrats will get any of this signed. Given that Republican have abandoned any responsibility of doing anything for the good of country it's on Dems to fund the government and raise the debt ceiling. But as with the reconciliation bill, moderates are opposing this.

I'm really trying hard to understand why Manchin and Sinema are making the reconciliation bill process so difficult and how they think that benefits them? As far as I can see, all it's doing is raising the ire of the majority of democrats towards them. It's been well known for a long time now that both the Infrastructure bill and reconciliation bill were tied together. They worked so hard to get and "Bipartisan" Infrastructure bill together (because it was oh so important to them to work together) and passed in the Senate, but now want to slow drag and bulk on the reconciliation bill (by not being able to negotiate with members of their own party)? There by, Putting both bills passage at risk and tanking both the Biden agenda and any hope of winning Congress in 2022? Make it make sense!

I suspect they'll get it done in the end because the implication of failure are really bad. But why make it so dysfunctional?

The drama and diplomacy are set to intensify over the next 24 hours, as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) scrambles to keep her fractious, narrow majority intact and send the first of two major economic initiatives to Biden’s desk. In a sign of the stakes, the president even canceled a planned Wednesday trip to Chicago so that he could stay in Washington and attempt to spare his agenda from collapse.
Democrats generally support the infrastructure package, which proposes major new investments in the country’s aging roads, bridges, pipes, ports and Internet connections. But the bill has become a critical political bargaining chip for liberal-leaning lawmakers, who have threatened to scuttle it to preserve the breadth of a second, roughly $3.5 trillion economic package.
What is in and out of the bipartisan infrastructure bill?
That latter proposal aims to expand Medicare, invest new sums to combat climate change, offer free prekindergarten and community college to all students and extend new aid to low-income families — all financed through taxes increases on wealthy Americans and corporations. Liberals fear it is likely to be slashed in scope dramatically by moderates, including Sens. Kyrsten Sinema (D-Ariz.) and Joe Manchin III (D-W.Va.), unless they hold up the infrastructure package the duo helped negotiate — leading to the stalemate that plagues the party on the eve of the House vote.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2021/09/29/biden-pelosi-democrats-infrastructure/

 

[SamAndreas]

I've been casually reading about that for about a month or so. Seems like there is some belief that raising it from 10,000 to 80,000 would overwhelmingly benefit the wealthy

Exactly. The wealthy and no one but the wealthy.

 

[MT15]

This whole thread is a good explainer on the Child Tax Credit. It seems it was greatly increased for the higher incomes by Trump in 2017. Here is that tweet but the whole thread is worth reading, it seems to be well sourced.

 

[zztop]

welp this should come as no surprise

Manchin delivers potential fatal blow to Biden's $1.75 trillion spending bill

U.S. Senator Joe Manchin, a moderate Democrat who is key to President Joe Biden's hopes of passing a $1.75 trillion domestic investment bill, said on Sunday he would not support the package, drawing a sharp rebuke from the White House.

www.reuters.com

"I cannot vote to continue with this piece of legislation," Manchin said during an interview with the "Fox News Sunday" program, citing concerns about inflation. "I just can't. I have tried everything humanly possible."

 

[GrandAdmiral]

welp this should come as no surprise

Manchin delivers potential fatal blow to Biden's $1.75 trillion spending bill

U.S. Senator Joe Manchin, a moderate Democrat who is key to President Joe Biden's hopes of passing a $1.75 trillion domestic investment bill, said on Sunday he would not support the package, drawing a sharp rebuke from the White House.

www.reuters.com

"I cannot vote to continue with this piece of legislation," Manchin said during an interview with the "Fox News Sunday" program, citing concerns about inflation. "I just can't. I have tried everything humanly possible."

Who really didn't see that coming? And the fact he went on FOX to do it is just an extra gut punch to the rest of the caucus and Biden.

fork Manchin.

 

[coldseat]

Yep, I called this 4 months ago. It was obvious he was never negotiating in good faith and that all he wanted to do was get his infrastructure bill passed so that he could bail on the BBB and deal a blow to Biden while increasing his political capital in WV. Next comes his switch to the Republicans. forking Snake, he belongs with that pit of vipers

The progressive where right about him the whole time. Just another liar.

 

[SamAndreas]

I wish they'd paired that bill down to the 1.5 trillion he agreed to two or three months ago before inflation had rolled in such that it spooked Manchin.

And they'd run the bill through back then while the iron was still hot, accepting that lower amount instead of trying to push him to accept more, and as a result got nothing.

Yeah I'm upset with Manchin, but I'm also upset with the ones on the further left who snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, albeit it would have been a smaller less impressive victory.

 

[zztop]

I wish they'd paired that bill down to the 1.5 trillion he agreed to two or three months ago before inflation had rolled in such that it spooked Manchin.

And they'd run the bill through back then while the iron was still hot, accepting that lower amount instead of trying to push him to accept more, and as a result got nothing.

Yeah I'm upset with Manchin, but I'm also upset with the ones on the further left who snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, albeit it would have been a smaller less impressive victory.

Don't forget, Sinema was drawing this process out at a snail's pace as well.

 

[Kerry Won Ohio]

All of the "realistic" and "pragmatic" Democrats love to criticize the Squad and progressive Democrats for not being more practical.

However, it's now obvious that progressive Democrats are the only Democrats that are practical. They astutely read Joe Manchin like a book, which is why they were correct a few weeks ago when they warned that the Infrastructure bill and the Build Back Better bill should not be split up. Now Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer look like total fools.

 

[J-DONK]

All of the "realistic" and "pragmatic" Democrats love to criticize the Squad and progressive Democrats for not being more practical.

However, it's now obvious that progressive Democrats are the only Democrats that are practical. They astutely read Joe Manchin like a book, which is why they were correct a few weeks ago when they warned that the Infrastructure bill and the Build Back Better bill should not be split up. Now Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer look like total fools.

Yeah, corporate dems got a lot of work to do between now, and the midterms to blame progressives for the inevitable losses.

 

[SamAndreas]

Don't forget, Sinema was drawing this process out at a snail's pace as well.

The list of who not to forget is long.

Joe Manchin (WV) and Kyrsten Sinema (AZ) have been the point senators for the more vulnerable senators during the negotiations all along. They have been speaking for more vulnerable Democratic Party Senators because those Senators cannot speak for themselves.

Those Senators who's greatest vulnerability are their own party members in their home states. Their greatest vulnerability being during the primary election, not the general election.

Here's that list, Jon Tester (MT), Sherrod Brown (OH), Raphael Warnock (GA), Jon Ossoff (GA), Mark Kelly (AZ), Tammy Baldwin (WI), Bob Casey (PA), Catherine Cortez Masto (NV), Jacky Rosen (NV), Debbie Stabenow (MI), and Gary Peters (MI).

All told that's 13 Democratic party senators, 12 of who could actually be the one, or ones, who sank the bill.

Sinema belongs on the second list because she's more vulnerable to being shot down during the primary, but she's got ambition to run for higher office, that's why she's taking the risk of loosing her seat when she otherwise wouldn't have to. That's why Manchin isn't out there alone speaking for all of them.

Manchin isn't at risk of losing his seat to a primary opponent due to a quirk of how his state is. In his state the Democratic party is still strong at the state level, but in actual reality they are the second Republican party. Coming closest to him is Tester of Montana a state where I know the political landscape better than I know the landscape of my own current state of California.

The period of my life when I was most active politically was the 13 years that I lived in Montana, and then 4 more years when I was still active in Montana state politics, but was living in California. I've got a lot of time and effort invested in getting Tester elected, and getting Burns the Republican he replaced kicked out. All in all for him it was about ten years of effort.

If something were to happen to Manchin, then it would be Testor who would take his place as spokesperson, speaking for and giving cover to the rest of them.

With Sinema being a wild card because of her state Gubernatorial, and or national Presidential, or Vice Presidential ambitions.

 

[SamAndreas]

All of the "realistic" and "pragmatic" Democrats love to criticize the Squad and progressive Democrats for not being more practical.

However, it's now obvious that progressive Democrats are the only Democrats that are practical. They astutely read Joe Manchin like a book, which is why they were correct a few weeks ago when they warned that the Infrastructure bill and the Build Back Better bill should not be split up. Now Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer look like total fools.

I think Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer were not fools, and I don't think suddenly out of the blue that Manchin lowered the boom on them yesterday.

I think is was weeks ago that Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer were informed that one or more of the vulnerable Senators had folded and what they did in splitting those bills was done to salvage what they could.

I'm thankful that they did salvage what they could. There was that budget resolution and the debet limit bills to move too. So what we've seen since a month ago can best be called politics. Sometimes in politics things are not what they seem.



BTW I have AOC of the squad down as a woman who might become President someday, on the same short list with Sinema of Arizona. I'm one of AOC's strong supporters. I support both of them as different as they are because they are amoung our parties rising stars with charisma, that essential ingredient for being elected to high office.

 

[Kerry Won Ohio]

I think Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer were not fools, and I don't think suddenly out of the blue that Manchin lowered the boom on them yesterday.

I think is was weeks ago that Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer were informed that one or more of the vulnerable Senators had folded and what they did in splitting those bills was done to salvage what they could.

I'm thankful that they did salvage what they could. There was that budget resolution and the debet limit bills to move too. So what we've seen since a month ago can best be called politics. Sometimes in politics things are not what they seem.



BTW I have AOC of the squad down as a woman who might become President someday, on the same short list with Sinema of Arizona. I'm one of AOC's strong supporters. I support both of them as different as they are because they are amoung our parties rising stars with charisma, that essential ingredient for being elected to high office.

When you say that these Democratic Senators are "vulnerable"....vulnerable to what, exactly? Losing their corporate donors?

There are virtually no Democratic voters opposed to the Infrastructure Bill and BBB Bill. In fact, large percentages of Republican voters also support both bills. Supporting both bills would most likely help Senators like Manchin and Sinema get re-elected in their states.

There is another term that you can use for the "vulnerable Democrats" that would be more accurate -- "corrupt Democrats".

AOC may have a bright future in politics, assuming we survive the fascist Republican menace in 2022 and beyond.

However, Sinema has no future beyond her current role as Senator, which may not last much longer. She's in over her head and she doesn't do a good job of explaining her policy positions and she often comes across as downright arrogant.

I don't agree with Manchin on much, but at least he attempts to explain his point of view to reporters. Sinema is just a big mystery, always quiet as a mouse, except for the occassional smart arse sarcastic comment.

 

[SamAndreas]

When you say that these Democratic Senators are "vulnerable"....vulnerable to what, exactly? Losing their corporate donors?

There are virtually no Democratic voters opposed to the Infrastructure Bill and BBB Bill. In fact, large percentages of Republican voters also support both bills. Supporting both bills would most likely help Senators like Manchin and Sinema get re-elected in their states.

There is another term that you can use for the "vulnerable Democrats" that would be more accurate -- "corrupt Democrats".

AOC may have a bright future in politics, assuming we survive the fascist Republican menace in 2022 and beyond.

However, Sinema has no future beyond her current role as Senator, which may not last much longer. She's in over her head and she doesn't do a good job of explaining her policy positions and she often comes across as downright arrogant.

I don't agree with Manchin on much, but at least he attempts to explain his point of view to reporters. Sinema is just a big mystery, always quiet as a mouse, except for the occassional smart arse sarcastic comment.

We sure see things differently, but I like where your heart is.

 

[coldseat]

Schumer should remove Manchin as the Chairmen for the Committee on Energy and Natural resources for lying and stringing the leadership along for so long. Put him on another, unimportant committee and appoint a climate activist as the Chairmen.

 

[MT15]

I think there will be a bill next year. This should be looked at as a pause, and used to fine tune the bill. Manchin committed to 1.75T, IIRC, and I think he will eventually green light a bill in that range.

To the question about what do the Ds from red states have to fear by speaking out for or against the BBB as it stands right now - I see it this way: they think they cannot win the general election by supporting the bill in its current form in their red states, and they fear losing a primary challenge from the left if they speak out against it right now. Followed by a defeat in the general for the democrats. These are red states, the voters in these states won’t support the bill in its current form, IMO.

This doesn’t mean I didn’t want it to pass, I did and do. But we need to face facts here. Most of the voting public doesn’t identify as progressives. Yet.

I do hope the Ds move on to voting protections and most importantly, reform of the electoral counting act. We can wait until next year for the BBB.

 

[coldseat]

I do hope the Ds move on to voting protections and most importantly, reform of the electoral counting act. We can wait until next year for the BBB.

That's a harder lift than BBB was because they'd actually have to change filibuster rules to actually get those passed. No matter what lie comes out of his mouth, Manchin will never vote for that.

This Congress is done with any major legislation thanks to Manchin and moderates killing any momentum that was left. Only absolutely necessary bills to temporarily avoid a disaster will pass and a lot of cans will be kicked down the road. Just like having a Republican congress without the tax cuts.

Thanks Moderates!!!

 

[zztop]

This is a republican tactic, you saw this when Obama was president:

Obama: I am willing to compromise to get things done
(R): okay lets negotiate
(D): okay we'll give lots of concessions
(R) thanks
(D) okay now you hold up your end of the deal
(R) no thanks haha

Progressives React To Joe Manchin Killing Build Back Better Act: We Told You So

“Maybe they’ll believe us next time. Or maybe people will just keep calling us naïve," tweeted Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

www.huffpost.com

oh and apparently he is rumored to have said this

Joe Manchin Privately Told Colleagues Parents Use Child Tax Credit Money On Drugs

The West Virginia senator just killed Democrats' agenda. In private negotiations, he questioned whether the poorest Americans would spend financial aid wisely.

www.huffpost.com

 

[Optimus Prime]

can we get some traction on a 49 state BBB plan and let West Virginia fend for itself