Bipartisan Infrastructure/3.5T Reconciliation/Gov Funding/Debt Ceiling (1 Viewer)

[coldseat]

Thought it would be good to have a place to discuss all the drama on Capitol Hill and whether Democrats will get any of this signed. Given that Republican have abandoned any responsibility of doing anything for the good of country it's on Dems to fund the government and raise the debt ceiling. But as with the reconciliation bill, moderates are opposing this.

I'm really trying hard to understand why Manchin and Sinema are making the reconciliation bill process so difficult and how they think that benefits them? As far as I can see, all it's doing is raising the ire of the majority of democrats towards them. It's been well known for a long time now that both the Infrastructure bill and reconciliation bill were tied together. They worked so hard to get and "Bipartisan" Infrastructure bill together (because it was oh so important to them to work together) and passed in the Senate, but now want to slow drag and bulk on the reconciliation bill (by not being able to negotiate with members of their own party)? There by, Putting both bills passage at risk and tanking both the Biden agenda and any hope of winning Congress in 2022? Make it make sense!

I suspect they'll get it done in the end because the implication of failure are really bad. But why make it so dysfunctional?

The drama and diplomacy are set to intensify over the next 24 hours, as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) scrambles to keep her fractious, narrow majority intact and send the first of two major economic initiatives to Biden’s desk. In a sign of the stakes, the president even canceled a planned Wednesday trip to Chicago so that he could stay in Washington and attempt to spare his agenda from collapse.
Democrats generally support the infrastructure package, which proposes major new investments in the country’s aging roads, bridges, pipes, ports and Internet connections. But the bill has become a critical political bargaining chip for liberal-leaning lawmakers, who have threatened to scuttle it to preserve the breadth of a second, roughly $3.5 trillion economic package.
What is in and out of the bipartisan infrastructure bill?
That latter proposal aims to expand Medicare, invest new sums to combat climate change, offer free prekindergarten and community college to all students and extend new aid to low-income families — all financed through taxes increases on wealthy Americans and corporations. Liberals fear it is likely to be slashed in scope dramatically by moderates, including Sens. Kyrsten Sinema (D-Ariz.) and Joe Manchin III (D-W.Va.), unless they hold up the infrastructure package the duo helped negotiate — leading to the stalemate that plagues the party on the eve of the House vote.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2021/09/29/biden-pelosi-democrats-infrastructure/

 

[coldseat]

can we get some traction on a 49 state BBB plan and let West Virginia fend for itself

It's not like tax collections from that state is going to pay for any of it, considering they get more back as a state than they pay in. So sure.

Honestly, democrats have to be a lot more scrupulous and calculating and really need to force voters in Republican voting states and counties to feel the effects of voting for Republican representatives and their policies. If they constantly cover for and provide the same benefits to conservative states that always oppose progressive legislation though their representatives (and don't pay their fair share in federal taxes anyway), then let those same representatives go home and claim credit for the progressive legislation that is benefiting those voters in conservatives states, how are voters ever supposed to identify and know the difference between the two parties?

Sucks for Democrats in the conservative states like myself, but I honestly wouldn't get the benefit of most of that legislation anyway.

 

[Kerry Won Ohio]

Schumer should remove Manchin as the Chairmen for the Committee on Energy and Natural resources for lying and stringing the leadership along for so long. Put him on another, unimportant committee and appoint a climate activist as the Chairmen.

Indeed. Who cares if Manchin becomes a Republican at this point? I sure don't.

He's not going to do anything regarding the filibuster and protecting voter rights, so all hope is lost in Nov 2022 anyway.

 

[SamAndreas]

I think there will be a bill next year. This should be looked at as a pause, and used to fine tune the bill. Manchin committed to 1.75T, IIRC, and I think he will eventually green light a bill in that range.

To the question about what do the Ds from red states have to fear by speaking out for or against the BBB as it stands right now - I see it this way: they think they cannot win the general election by supporting the bill in its current form in their red states, and they fear losing a primary challenge from the left if they speak out against it right now. Followed by a defeat in the general for the democrats. These are red states, the voters in these states won’t support the bill in its current form, IMO.

This doesn’t mean I didn’t want it to pass, I did and do. But we need to face facts here. Most of the voting public doesn’t identify as progressives. Yet.

I do hope the Ds move on to voting protections and most importantly, reform of the electoral counting act. We can wait until next year for the BBB.

My posts on this topic, and this one from you are on a page. It appears we're in total agreement.

I've spent most of my life living in red states where getting a Democrat elected is hard work, and then to have Democrats from blue states where it is easy acting like the ones we managed to get elected, and in getting them elected giving our party control of the chamber, are insufficiently liberal enough because they have to look to the next election, and in some cases have to vote against a bill that the very liberal are pushing is so counterproductive.

In one ear and out the other complaints of that nature go. I support Manchin and the other 12 Senators who are in that boat who are making it so Biden can appoint judges, and cabinet secretaries and get them approved in the Senate. That stuff is very important too.

Manchin has voted with Biden at a greater percentage as has Elizabeth Warren. Manchin has voted for Biden's issues at the rate of about 98%. Where as Warren has only voted for Biden's issues at the rate of about 92%. There are five very liberal Senators who have not voted with Biden at a rate as great as has Manchin.

Here's the proof for that statement: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-congress-votes/

 

[coldseat]

My posts on this topic, and this one from you are on a page. It appears we're in total agreement.

I've spent most of my life living in red states where getting a Democrat elected is hard work, and then to have Democrats from blue states where it is easy acting like the ones we managed to get elected, and in getting them elected giving our party control of the chamber, are insufficiently liberal enough because they have to look to the next election, and in some cases have to vote against a bill that the very liberal are pushing is so counterproductive.

In one ear and out the other complaints of that nature go. I support Manchin and the other 12 Senators who are in that boat who are making it so Biden can appoint judges, and cabinet secretaries and get them approved in the Senate. That stuff is very important too.

Manchin has voted with Biden at a greater percentage as has Elizabeth Warren. Manchin has voted for Biden's issues at the rate of about 98%. Where as Warren has only voted for Biden's issues at the rate of about 92%. There are five very liberal Senators who have not voted with Biden at a rate as great as has Manchin.

Here's the proof for that statement: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-congress-votes/

It's easy to vote for stuff when you're controlling the agenda the way Manchin has and have made it clear that everything has to pass through him and be approved before coming up. That's why Schumer needs to push some of the legislation he doesn't agree with and get his vote on record, so that he has to defend it with the Democrats in his state when his election comes. If it's not on record, it's easy to distort the truth.

But also, this doesn't sound like a guy that's working with Biden and the administration. This sounds like a guy who's trying to make excuses to deflect blame while at the same time trying to score points for his "independence".

Manchin on Monday strongly defended his rationale for effectively sinking the legislation in its current form, saying he's been clear that the proposal is too unwieldy and lacks "accountability" measures to limit its benefits -- and he pointedly blamed White House staff for their handling of the talks.
"I'm not blaming anybody, I knew where they were, and I knew what they could and could not do. They just never realized it, because they figured surely to God we can move one person," Manchin said.
"Surely we can badger and beat one person up, surely we can get enough protesters to make that person uncomfortable enough they'll just say: 'Ok, I'll vote for anything, just quit.' Well guess what, I'm from West Virginia, I'm not from where they're from, and they can just beat the living crap out of people and think they'll be submissive. Period."
The White House's handling of their negotiations was "so staff-driven," Manchin said, adding that "I understand staff is not the President. This is staff. And they drove some things and they put some things out that were absolutely inexcusable. They know what it is and that's it."

Manchin says he still sees himself as a Democrat even after thwarting Build Back Better plan | CNN Politics

West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin said Monday that he still considers himself a Democrat even after he defied his party by torpedoing a key piece of President Joe Biden’s domestic agenda.

www.cnn.com

 

[SamAndreas]

It's easy to vote for stuff when you're controlling the agenda the way Manchin has and have made it clear that everything has to pass through him and be approved before coming up. That's why the Schumer needs to push some of the legislation he doesn't agree with and get his vote on record, so that he has to defend it with the Democrats in his state when his election comes. If it's not on record, it's easy to distort the truth.

But also, this doesn't sound like a guy that's working with Biden and the administration. This sounds like a guy who's trying to make excuses to deflect blame while at the same time trying to score points for his "independence".

Manchin says he still sees himself as a Democrat even after thwarting Build Back Better plan | CNN Politics

West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin said Monday that he still considers himself a Democrat even after he defied his party by torpedoing a key piece of President Joe Biden’s domestic agenda.

www.cnn.com

We see things differently, but I like where your heart is.

 

[MT15]

So this morning it seems that Manchin and Biden had a “cordial” talk Sunday night. Manchin will submit his version of BBB for consideration. So all is not lost.

The idea was floated also that Manchin’s Fox appearance was a “tit for tat” due to him being personally upset about the wording of a press release. Stupid, but Senators have extremely fragile egos, evidently. It was recently reported that Tom Cotton had been holding up appointments for almost a year because the democratic committee chair had “interrupted” him in January of last year and he refused to allow anything to proceed until he got a public apology. They are essentially toddlers by all evidence.

Just remember, a lot of stories are meant to sensationalize events, because thats how they get you to read them. Outrage porn goes both ways. It’s easy to get addicted to it, I’ve done it myself many times.

 

[Taurus]

So this morning it seems that Manchin and Biden had a “cordial” talk Sunday night. Manchin will submit his version of BBB for consideration. So all is not lost.

The idea was floated also that Manchin’s Fox appearance was a “tit for tat” due to him being personally upset about the wording of a press release. Stupid, but Senators have extremely fragile egos, evidently. It was recently reported that Tom Cotton had been holding up appointments for almost a year because the democratic committee chair had “interrupted” him in January of last year and he refused to allow anything to proceed until he got a public apology. They are essentially toddlers by all evidence.

Just remember, a lot of stories are meant to sensationalize events, because thats how they get you to read them. Outrage porn goes both ways. It’s easy to get addicted to it, I’ve done it myself many times.

Meanwhile, Trump insults every Senator in sight and they line up to lick his boots.

Joe could learn something from him, it seems.

 

[coldseat]

So this morning it seems that Manchin and Biden had a “cordial” talk Sunday night. Manchin will submit his version of BBB for consideration. So all is not lost.

The idea was floated also that Manchin’s Fox appearance was a “tit for tat” due to him being personally upset about the wording of a press release. Stupid, but Senators have extremely fragile egos, evidently. It was recently reported that Tom Cotton had been holding up appointments for almost a year because the democratic committee chair had “interrupted” him in January of last year and he refused to allow anything to proceed until he got a public apology. They are essentially toddlers by all evidence.

Just remember, a lot of stories are meant to sensationalize events, because thats how they get you to read them. Outrage porn goes both ways. It’s easy to get addicted to it, I’ve done it myself many times.

That is my problem with Manchin. I mean, you just compared him to Tom Cotton, that should tell you all you need to know. We're in a moment that so much bigger than him, but he's making it all about himself and basically trying to be the US President from the Senate. I don't have a problem with him shaping the legislation and protecting some of the interest in his state, that's his job and what he's there to do. But it's the demanding that every aspect of every bill that gets brought up has to seed to his will in order to get his vote and pass, when he's one of 50 Democratic Senators. It's the fact that for months he's been moving the goal post every time they get close to getting to an agreement. It's going on Fox News, with all of the grandstanding.

It's damaging Biden and his administration when we really need to be building him up. I suppose all of that is necessary in his mind for him to win his state and to build up his persona of "not like those pansy progressive Democrats", but that is damaging our country no less than what Republicans are doing. Right now, he's not only the road block to BBB, but also to voting rights, police reform, electoral count act reform, etc.

 

[B4YOU]

I like the comparison of Manchin to John McCain. Both could be seen as the end point of a spectrum of views for their party. Both were long time Senators holding down seats that were difference makers for their party.

Republicans vilified McCain and now AZ has 2 Dem Senators. Dems need to tread lightly with Manchin.

 

[coldseat]

I like the comparison of Manchin to John McCain. Both could be seen as the end point of a spectrum of views for their party. Both were long time Senators holding down seats that were difference makers for their party.

Republicans vilified McCain and now AZ has 2 Dem Senators. Dems need to tread lightly with Manchin.

Just one minor difference. McCain voted so that poor children and families could keep their health insurance. Manchin opposed and killed a program that has lifted a staggering amount of poor people in his state out of poverty and have helped families provide for their kids needs and pay of debt. All because of prejudice against poor people. So maybe not exactly the same thing.

The West Virginia Center on Budget and Policy reports: “Congress temporarily increased the Child Tax Credit (CTC) for more than 65 million children nationally, including 346,000 in West Virginia where it reaches 93 percent of children.” Reducing or eliminating it would amount to driving “50,000 of the lowest income children in the state below the poverty line or deeper into poverty.” (Manchin’s state ranks 47th in food security.)
Nevertheless, The Post reports: “Sen. Joe Manchin III last week made the White House a concrete counteroffer for its spending bill, saying he would accept a $1.8 trillion package that included universal prekindergarten for 10 years, an expansion of Obamacare and hundreds of billions of dollars to combat climate change. . . . But the West Virginia Democrat’s counteroffer excluded an extension of the expanded child tax credit the administration has seen as a cornerstone of President Biden’s economic legacy.”


Manchin was also apparently afraid that poor parents would use the money for illegal drugs, and HuffPost reported that “Manchin has also told colleagues he believes that Americans would fraudulently use the proposed paid sick leave policy, specifically saying people would feign being sick and go on hunting trips.” It’s rare for a politician to express such contempt for his own constituents, let alone poor children.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/21/manchin-kids-poverty-let-them-eat-cake/

 

[MT15]

Manchin hasn’t killed it yet. He’s still in there negotiating. It doesn’t do any good to be mad at him or vilify him. That’s what Trump would do. Would it work? I don’t think it would work on democrats in general like it does on republicans. Biden doesn’t have a cult of followers ready to pounce on anyone he insults. Or at least not in the numbers of Republicans that are willing to protect Trump at all costs.

The reports of what he said about poor people are anonymous. Just might be more political than truthful. Unknown at this point.

I’m going to take my cue from Jayapal, who is not vilifying Manchin, but rather engaging with him, reaching out to him. I do think this will get done.

 

[B4YOU]

Just one minor difference. McCain voted so that poor children and families could keep their health insurance. Manchin opposed and killed a program that has lifted a staggering amount of poor people in his state out of poverty and have helped families provide for their kids needs and pay of debt. All because of prejudice against poor people. So maybe not exactly the same thing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/21/manchin-kids-poverty-let-them-eat-cake/

I’m not making a value judgment of Manchin’s decision.

There are political similarities between the two.

 

[Kerry Won Ohio]

So this morning it seems that Manchin and Biden had a “cordial” talk Sunday night. Manchin will submit his version of BBB for consideration. So all is not lost.

The idea was floated also that Manchin’s Fox appearance was a “tit for tat” due to him being personally upset about the wording of a press release. Stupid, but Senators have extremely fragile egos, evidently. It was recently reported that Tom Cotton had been holding up appointments for almost a year because the democratic committee chair had “interrupted” him in January of last year and he refused to allow anything to proceed until he got a public apology. They are essentially toddlers by all evidence.

Just remember, a lot of stories are meant to sensationalize events, because thats how they get you to read them. Outrage porn goes both ways. It’s easy to get addicted to it, I’ve done it myself many times.

Manchin created his own drama with his stupid appearance and statements on Fox News last Sunday.

The media has nothing to do with the stupidity that leaves Machin's lips. They are simply reporting it.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

 

[TampaJoe]

I’m not making a value judgment of Manchin’s decision.

There are political similarities between the two.

Manchin said months ago that he wouldn’t support anything that exceeded 1.5T. At that time republicans predicted that democrats would use budget gimmicks to artificially lower the cost of the bill. They detailed which gimmicks the Democrats would use. Democrats then used those budget gimmicks to lower the cost of the bill. Manchin then asked then asked the CBO to rescore the bill ignoring the budget gimmicks and the adjusted cost was 4T more of less. Manchin said he would go 1.75T without the gimmicks. They just couldn’t bridge the gap in the cost difference. I don’t see where Manchin was less than honest. I think he pretty much did what he said he would do.

Further, the Democrats are big on bragging about being the “big tent” party but they expect everybody in the tent to vote like a progressive. Manchin has an obligation to represent the people of West Virginia; Republican, Democrat and Independent. He doesn’t work for the folks in San Francisco or New York. That’s a different part of the tent. Manchin is the Democrat version or John McCain or Susan Collins.

Lastly, the Democrats didn’t have a legislative mandate to pass this type of legislation. It was a long shot they tried to force thru using budget reconciliation; a mechanism that was never meant to be used to pass such sweeping legislation. That’s what super majorities are all about.

 

[B4YOU]

For a value judgement:

TCJA will cost 2T over 10 years and provided most of its benefits to businesses and high income individuals in the form of tax cuts. Manchin setting a ceiling of 1.75T four years later for BBB when infrastructure needs rebuilding and families are still struggling is just dumb. He could have put that number at 2.5T and given more space to negotiate. His # and Fox appearance has boxed him to voting NO.

TCJA was passed via reconciliation too. Trump didn’t have a “legislative mandate” when it passed with 52 votes.

 

[TampaJoe]

For a value judgement:

TCJA will cost 2T over 10 years and provided most of its benefits to businesses and high income individuals in the form of tax cuts. Manchin setting a ceiling of 1.75T four years later for BBB when infrastructure needs rebuilding and families are still struggling is just dumb. He could have put that number at 2.5T and given more space to negotiate. His # and Fox appearance has boxed him to voting NO.

TCJA was passed via reconciliation too. Trump didn’t have a “legislative mandate” when it passed with 52 votes.

I don’t disagree that both parties abuse the reconciliation process. I don’t disagree that both parties pass legislation with little to no regard for how they plan to pay for things. To me, that’s what’s dumb. Manchin worrying about how things will be paid for is one of the more sane things I’ve heard in a while coming out of the Senate.

 

[Kerry Won Ohio]

I don’t disagree that both parties abuse the reconciliation process. I don’t disagree that both parties pass legislation with little to no regard for how they plan to pay for things. To me, that’s what’s dumb. Manchin worrying about how things will be paid for is one of the more sane things I’ve heard in a while coming out of the Senate.

It's not sane at all. The taxes on the wealthy and on corporations was supposed to be higher for the BBB bill, but Manchin was against it. That would have made it much easier to pay for the BBB bill.

It's really absurd for Manchin to be "concerned" about how the bill is paid for when he's against a substantial raise in taxes for the rich. What a hypocrite.