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    With all due respect, you’re worried about authoritarianism from the wrong side. It’s coming from the right, and they’re not even being subtle about it lately.
     
    Saintman2884 said:
    Excessively regs meaning UK or EU-styled gun control laws which, if applied recklessly, or too aggressively, might run afoul of the 4th Amendment illegal search and seizures. Some progressives might admit it, some won't but Ive always suspected a good portion of their "wet dream" concepts of gun control is extremely strict European gun control laws which are rigid, excessive, in some cases like France in their legal system where they dont need a warrant to arrest someone or do a police search of someone's home on probable cause if some homeowner is suspected of possessing a sharp steak knife. Some of UK's and EU's gun control laws seem, IMHO, almost semi-authoritatian in their rigid ness, and enforcement.

    I know about the history of gun control and the underlining reasons behind the philosophes inspiring most EU nations gun control laws and it has nothing to do with ensuring public safety and its still largely the cumulative effects of centuries of religious, political and economic elitist-centered or authoritian/totalitarian regimes regulating and enacting laws to prevent or stifle potential political unrest, industrial revolutions, or successful long-term, meaningful popular revolutions. In medieval Europe, it was actually illegal for serfs, commoners to own or possess a knife, sword or stabbing weapon to protect themselves from thieves, or robbers looking to rob or kill them or their families.
    Click to expand...

    This is the same type of fear mongering that prevents any action whatsoever on gun control. Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of people that would like very strict control of guns laws. Surprise, Surprise! Does that meant that we shouldn't take any legislative action on gun control? Does that mean that we couldn't pass any meaningful gun regulations in Congress for past 25 years? Does that mean we shouldn't do anything to study gun violence and address root causes, even if that means restricting the availability of very power weapons capable of cause a lot of carnage?

    The extremes on gun legislation and control are all on the Right in this country. It's the extreme fear of any type of gun regulation and extreme gun worship that has led us to epidemic levels of gun availability/ownership and gun violence in this country.

    We are not outlawing guns in the country! No liberal actually thinks that's possible (even the ones that want to, which is a small percentage) or is trying to actually do that.
     
    Saintman2884 said:
    in some cases like France in their legal system where they dont need a warrant to arrest someone or do a police search of someone's home on probable cause if some homeowner is suspected of possessing a sharp steak knife. Some of UK's and EU's gun control laws seem, IMHO, almost semi-authoritatian in their rigid ness, and enforcement.
    Click to expand...

    My sister lives in France and above is total BS....

    The majority of French guns are used for hunting, hunting is huge in France. You can apply to own a handgun but must pass a physch test, if you have a criminal record you will be denied.

    It's not perfect but France averages less than 1/5 of gun deaths per year than the US, per capita....

    Muh freedumbs indeed...
     
    Farb said:
    https://www.dailywire.com/news/ex-o...-biden-submit-to-a-cognitive-test-immediately

    Didn't Pelosi do something about this and a possible transition before the last election?
    Click to expand...

    Pill-popping, drunk Ronnie Jackson is demanding a cognitive test? 😂 😂 😂

    www.cnn.com

    First on CNN: Rep. Ronny Jackson made sexual comments, drank alcohol and took Ambien while working as White House physician, Pentagon watchdog finds | CNN Politics

    The Department of Defense inspector general has issued a scathing review of Rep. Ronny Jackson during his time serving as the top White House physician, concluding that he made “sexual and denigrating” comments about a female subordinate, violated the policy for drinking alcohol while on a...
    www.cnn.com www.cnn.com
     
    Farb, could you tell us what you mean by this sentence? I can’t tell.

    “Didn't Pelosi do something about this and a possible transition before the last election?”

    Here are the issues I see with this article.

    As coldseat noted, it quotes Jackson without mentioning his own issues with cognition due to impairment.

    And although it boasts about other lawmakers signing the letter, it doesn’t bother to name them, which I think would be key to the story.

    Also the headline is just plain misleading-calling Ronnie Jackson an ex-Obama doctor without mentioning his complete conversion to the MAGA cult and total fealty to Trump is disingenuous at best.

    The Daily Wire is rated this way by MediaBiasFactCheck (emphasis mine)
    • Overall, we rate The Daily Wire Right Biased based on story selection and editorial positions that align with the conservative right. We also rate Questionable due to the promotion of propaganda, conspiracy theories, and numerous failed fact checks.
    A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency, and/or is fake news. Fake News is the deliberate attempt to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category may be very untrustworthy and should be fact-checked on a per-article basis. Please note sources on this list are not considered fake news unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source. See all Questionable sources.
     
    coldseat said:
    This is the same type of fear mongering that prevents any action whatsoever on gun control. Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of people that would like very strict control of guns laws. Surprise, Surprise! Does that meant that we shouldn't take any legislative action on gun control? Does that mean that we couldn't pass any meaningful gun regulations in Congress for past 25 years? Does that mean we shouldn't do anything to study gun violence and address root causes, even if that means restricting the availability of very power weapons capable of cause a lot of carnage?

    The extremes on gun legislation and control are all on the Right in this country. It's the extreme fear of any type of gun regulation and extreme gun worship that has led us to epidemic levels of gun availability/ownership and gun violence in this country.

    We are not outlawing guns in the country! No liberal actually thinks that's possible (even the ones that want to, which is a small percentage) or is trying to actually do that.
    Click to expand...
    Its not exactly fear-mongering, but sure, keep trying to paint me as one-dimensional. Gun control is an incremental issue, which means reforms happen usually bit by bit in a gradual basis. Politically, most liberals know strict EU-gun control laws aren't feasible, they know this country has too strong of a gun culture in regarding its history, but what I'm telling you is not hyperbole because quite a few liberal, left-leaning types have expressed to me these very same thoughts or sentiments over the years and they were quite expressive.

    So, don't tell me I'm being a fear-mongering when Ive had conversations privately with many of these people on this issue and others.

    What they'd like to do vs. Political reality are two different, distinct things and IMHO, I think maybe you underestimate how many on the left wish or want stricter gun-control laws but realize they have to be practical and go it slow at a piecemeal or face reality and accept its never going to happen.

    And yes, their has been significant gun control legislation passed in the past 25-30 years. There was the Brady Bill, there were laws passed in quite a few Northern states and even California that put strict controls on owning or possessing semiautomatic rifles, guns until a higher court ruled recently that California's state law on semiautomatic guns were unconstitutional and the state is now, objecting to that decision, IIRC. Conservatives believe in gun-control laws, solid, commonsense ones, that don't penalize or make people feel like their second-class citizens if they own weapons or guns, their "weird" or strange or something. Their is that sociocultural construct or perception that pushes that narrative,.albeit in a simplistic, one-dimensional fashion.

    If Michael Moore or Vice News actually tried talking to gun owners who they didnt try to portray as angry, vigilante, mistrustful paranoid types, you think their documentaries would be so successful? They give you one,.visible side of the argument and subtly or inaccurately assume thats the only one that exists. And public opinion, especially on sensitive topics, is a lot more like rumor-mongering or spreading lies or half-truths if its intellectually dishonest or pushed or portrayed in a malicious, unfair demonizing way by interest groups on either zie

    Part of the problem sometimes is that what some gun-control activists push as meaningful, or "common-sense" gun control laws leaves the legislative doors open way too far for less honest, more idealogical lawmakers to come along later and push further later on. It comes across more as a power grab and I think their is a spectrum of gun lobby and (this is where the fanatical part comes in) that sees the federal government as a potential, encroaching enemy and guns as maybe a safeguard or deterrent.
     
    MT15 said:
    Farb, could you tell us what you mean by this sentence? I can’t tell.

    “Didn't Pelosi do something about this and a possible transition before the last election?”

    Here are the issues I see with this article.

    As coldseat noted, it quotes Jackson without mentioning his own issues with cognition due to impairment.

    And although it boasts about other lawmakers signing the letter, it doesn’t bother to name them, which I think would be key to the story.

    Also the headline is just plain misleading-calling Ronnie Jackson an ex-Obama doctor without mentioning his complete conversion to the MAGA cult and total fealty to Trump is disingenuous at best.

    The Daily Wire is rated this way by MediaBiasFactCheck (emphasis mine)
    • Overall, we rate The Daily Wire Right Biased based on story selection and editorial positions that align with the conservative right. We also rate Questionable due to the promotion of propaganda, conspiracy theories, and numerous failed fact checks.
    A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency, and/or is fake news. Fake News is the deliberate attempt to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category may be very untrustworthy and should be fact-checked on a per-article basis. Please note sources on this list are not considered fake news unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source. See all Questionable sources.
    Click to expand...
    SFIDC3 said:
    My sister lives in France and above is total BS....

    The majority of French guns are used for hunting, hunting is huge in France. You can apply to own a handgun but must pass a physch test, if you have a criminal record you will be denied.

    It's not perfect but France averages less than 1/5 of gun deaths per year than the US, per capita....

    Muh freedumbs indeed...
    Click to expand...
    SFIDC3 said:
    My sister lives in France and above is total BS....

    The majority of French guns are used for hunting, hunting is huge in France. You can apply to own a handgun but must pass a physch test, if you have a criminal record you will be denied.

    It's not perfect but France averages less than 1/5 of gun deaths per year than the US, per capita....

    Muh freedumbs indeed...
    Click to expand...
    Buddy, Ive studied comparative criminal justice systems and trust me, there's some elements of French legal system, criminal law and some laws or statutes regarding habeas corpus including in some cases, suspects being held or detained for ordinary felonies without being arraigned for a week to 10 days.

    French model for owning handguns or rifles for hunting isn't that special or too different from other EU countries do like Switzerland, Belgium, Holland, or Czech Republic. When you say one has a criminal record, if that includes just having a few DUIs or speeding tickets, does that mean you're automatically put on the shirt list for owning guns if you live in cities like Rouen, Bourdeoux, Dijon, or Marseilles? Misdemeanors like those aren't the same thing as drugs or arms trafficking or being a sex trafficking mule smuggler or previously serving 4-5 years in prison for knifing a guy in a bar after a heated argument broke out.


    Yeah, I know my freedumbs,.well enough thank you.
     
    Saintman2884 said:
    Its not exactly fear-mongering, but sure, keep trying to paint me as one-dimensional. Gun control is an incremental issue, which means reforms happen usually bit by bit in a gradual basis. Politically, most liberals know strict EU-gun control laws aren't feasible, they know this country has too strong of a gun culture in regarding its history, but what I'm telling you is not hyperbole because quite a few liberal, left-leaning types have expressed to me these very same thoughts or sentiments over the years and they were quite expressive.

    So, don't tell me I'm being a fear-mongering when Ive had conversations privately with many of these people on this issue and others.

    What they'd like to do vs. Political reality are two different, distinct things and IMHO, I think maybe you underestimate how many on the left wish or want stricter gun-control laws but realize they have to be practical and go it slow at a piecemeal or face reality and accept its never going to happen.

    And yes, their has been significant gun control legislation passed in the past 25-30 years. There was the Brady Bill, there were laws passed in quite a few Northern states and even California that put strict controls on owning or possessing semiautomatic rifles, guns until a higher court ruled recently that California's state law on semiautomatic guns were unconstitutional and the state is now, objecting to that decision, IIRC. Conservatives believe in gun-control laws, solid, commonsense ones, that don't penalize or make people feel like their second-class citizens if they own weapons or guns, their "weird" or strange or something. Their is that sociocultural construct or perception that pushes that narrative,.albeit in a simplistic, one-dimensional fashion.

    If Michael Moore or Vice News actually tried talking to gun owners who they didnt try to portray as angry, vigilante, mistrustful paranoid types, you think their documentaries would be so successful? They give you one,.visible side of the argument and subtly or inaccurately assume thats the only one that exists. And public opinion, especially on sensitive topics, is a lot more like rumor-mongering or spreading lies or half-truths if its intellectually dishonest or pushed or portrayed in a malicious, unfair demonizing way by interest groups on either zie

    Part of the problem sometimes is that what some gun-control activists push as meaningful, or "common-sense" gun control laws leaves the legislative doors open way too far for less honest, more idealogical lawmakers to come along later and push further later on. It comes across more as a power grab and I think their is a spectrum of gun lobby and (this is where the fanatical part comes in) that sees the federal government as a potential, encroaching enemy and guns as maybe a safeguard or deterrent.
    Click to expand...

    You are aware of the Second Amendment, yes?

    The "incremental encroachment" idea is pure nonsense if you read Heller and McDonald (and throw in Caetano for good measure).
     
    @Saintman2884 -

    You do know that Michael Moore is a card carrying, life long member of the NRA, and gun rights advocate right?

    It apparent you never actually watched Bowling for Columbine or read any of his writings.

    I mean you are lecturing people on not getting their facts right and then you come with “if Michael Moore actually talked to gun owners..”
     
    CoolBrees said:
    @Saintman2884 -

    You do know that Michael Moore is a card carrying, life long member of the NRA, and gun rights advocate right?

    It apparent you never actually watched Bowling for Columbine or read any of his writings.

    I mean you are lecturing people on not getting their facts right and then you come with “if Michael Moore actually talked to gun owners..”
    Click to expand...
    I suppose you must have seen Moore's sudden, hit-and-run "gotcha" interview with then-NRA head Charleton Heston on the same Bowling for Columbine documentary. He also made quite a few unfair insinuations that Ted Nugent must have known that band's Amboy Dukes 1967 hit, "Journey to the Center of the Mind" was a clear song about taking LSD and hallucinagetics and while Nugent wrote the music to the song, he's always maintained he didnt know the lyrical meanings of the song.

    His own fellow bandmates in the Amboy Dukes have also come out and claimed that Nugent back then and even some what today, was kind of dumb jock sort of rock.guitarist back then and he likely didnt know then the song was about drugs, unlike what Moore insists in his documentary or tries to infers. One ex-member of the Amboy Dukes even went so far as to say Nugent back then was kind of stupid and none too bright.

    Just because Moore might be a NRA member doesn't mean his credibility shouldn't be called into question or his motives. He's been a lightning rod for controversy for over 25-30 years and unfortunately for his liberal defenders, some of the criticisms aimed at him have had some legitimacy. He's had a bad habit of putting his foot in his mouth, like the time he's said when accusations about Julian Assange sexual assault allegations, his big, fat forking mouth said "you can't really believe most of these things" like wholesale giving Assange the benefit of the doubt without taking the initial seriousness of those charges when they first came out. I'm sure there's still plenty of life-long card-carrying registered Republicans who hate or despise Trump or the radical direction the GOP is lurching towards, but haven't exactly given up hope yet theyll see the light.
     
    superchuck500 said:
    You are aware of the Second Amendment, yes?

    The "incremental encroachment" idea is pure nonsense if you read Heller and McDonald (and throw in Caetano for good measure).
    Click to expand...
    Well, as definitive and articulate as the arguments made in the Heller case which upheld the notion that right to own a firearm is guaranteed, but not an absolute right, quite a few liberals disagreed with that decision and likely still do, probably in their own individual ways. I'm just saying that even established legal precedents set forth down by SCOTUS decisions, whether it be abortion, or the death penalty, can be whittled away bit by bit. It took nearly a century to dismantle Plessy v. Ferguson narrowing the interpretations of the 13th, 14th amendments regarding civil rights and overturning state-sanctioned public segregation laws but thankfully, it occurred and even after Brown v. Board of Education, most of the Deep South remained a literal war zone for nearly 2 decades afterwards as politicians, hate groups, even working in concert with local and state business elites(States Citizens Councils, "Klansmen in business suits") tried to block, obfuscate, and then limit the progress of federally passed laws guaranteeing civil and voting rights for African-Americans.

    I mean, its been almost 50 years since Roe v. Wade legalized abortion and there's still vehement lines in the sand and bitter legal and emotional arguments saying Roe might be overturned eventually. Just like Roe v. Wade, or IIRC, the Gregg v. Georgia case (1976) that made death penalty constitutional again, Heller's legal framework can be attacked and dismantled no matter how some believe its merits are impeachable and ironclad. Some aspects of Patriot Act allows federal law authorities and intelligent agencies in theory, power to pursue leads that wouldve seemed unthinkable 40 years ago, but yet here we are.
     
    Last edited:
    MT15 said:
    Farb, could you tell us what you mean by this sentence? I can’t tell.

    “Didn't Pelosi do something about this and a possible transition before the last election?”

    Here are the issues I see with this article.

    As coldseat noted, it quotes Jackson without mentioning his own issues with cognition due to impairment.

    And although it boasts about other lawmakers signing the letter, it doesn’t bother to name them, which I think would be key to the story.

    Also the headline is just plain misleading-calling Ronnie Jackson an ex-Obama doctor without mentioning his complete conversion to the MAGA cult and total fealty to Trump is disingenuous at best.

    The Daily Wire is rated this way by MediaBiasFactCheck (emphasis mine)
    • Overall, we rate The Daily Wire Right Biased based on story selection and editorial positions that align with the conservative right. We also rate Questionable due to the promotion of propaganda, conspiracy theories, and numerous failed fact checks.
    A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency, and/or is fake news. Fake News is the deliberate attempt to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category may be very untrustworthy and should be fact-checked on a per-article basis. Please note sources on this list are not considered fake news unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source. See all Questionable sources.
    Click to expand...
    https://news.yahoo.com/pelosi-25th-amendment-legislation-trump-covid-raskin-162259179.html
    Here is what I thought I remembered.

    You guys post things from comedy central and huffington post and NPR, Daily Wire is fine despite if you like their political leaning and opinions.
     
    Saintman2884 said:
    Buddy, Ive studied comparative criminal justice systems and trust me, there's some elements of French legal system, criminal law and some laws or statutes regarding habeas corpus including in some cases, suspects being held or detained for ordinary felonies without being arraigned for a week to 10 days.

    French model for owning handguns or rifles for hunting isn't that special or too different from other EU countries do like Switzerland, Belgium, Holland, or Czech Republic. When you say one has a criminal record, if that includes just having a few DUIs or speeding tickets, does that mean you're automatically put on the shirt list for owning guns if you live in cities like Rouen, Bourdeoux, Dijon, or Marseilles? Misdemeanors like those aren't the same thing as drugs or arms trafficking or being a sex trafficking mule smuggler or previously serving 4-5 years in prison for knifing a guy in a bar after a heated argument broke out.


    Yeah, I know my freedumbs,.well enough thank you.
    Click to expand...

    Ok buddy, I think I stated French gun laws are very restrictive and far from perfect. Pretty sure speeding tickets shouldn't be part of a criminal record but I have no problem preventing a person with multiple DUI's from owning a gun....you know sound judgement and all...

    But the results speak for themselves....Less than 1/5 of the gun deaths we have here...but that doesn't matter at all to the NRA or their ilk....
     

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