An Amicable Separation/Decentralization/Secession (1 Viewer)

[Farb]

https://nationalfile.com/why-dont-w...d-divide-up-into-like-two-or-three-countries/

I find myself never agreeing with this looney tune but I think she is might be on to something. At the very minimum for a conversation. I heard this yesterday evening and have been thinking about a lot last night and today. Curious on others thoughts.
Why do we all have to share a federal government. The 2 sides are not just politically apart, but are different in their core values. I think this needs to be discussed before conflict actually boils to the top.
If we are honest, it is already simmering. This should be a like a divorce only with vast population migration to different areas.
We remain allies with defensive pacts and trade pacts but share not common government.
I get the first reaction is horror but if you think about it, it might be the only way...

What would it look like? What regions/states would go where?

 

[xpuma20x]

My first thought is that this isn't possible due to the shared resources. There are states that are only able to operate due to the shared resources as a nation. They literally only exist because of the taxes from other states. Then you have to dive into what the government as a whole has built. Interstate systems, energy systems, oil, gas, water, etc. Then there are overseeing branches of government organizations. After all that, then you can dive into the theoretical problems of attempting to force people to move to another location due to political ideology differences. Does that mean because I do not have the same conservative political thoughts as many in Louisiana, that I would then need to move to say...California? Who's going to pay for that? Are they going to match me with a similar income family and have a house swap? A job swap?

I don't even think we can do a hypothetical Thanos style finger snap and make it happen to even split things up. Mainly because there are States that on the actual political official level, they are conservative, while the citizen side, they are more moderate. Texas and Florida both come to mind to me for that. So do we base it on what the handful of elected officials want, or on the millions of citizens within?

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Part of the issue with this is everyone thinks of it as an ideological split, but the ideology of the country is strongly divided by the coasts and the middle of the country. How do you connect the West and East coasts that are ideologically aligned?

I'd add that with the exception of oil and gas the countries financial power centers are on the coasts. If we did an ideological split Texas and Florida would have to support the entire rest of USA-Red. I'm not sure they can pull that off while 70-80% of USA-Blue states would all be contributing to their nation's economy.

 

[RobF]

Part of the issue with this is everyone thinks of it as an ideological split, but the ideology of the country is strongly divided by the coasts and the middle of the country.

But to what extent is that true? Clearly to some extent, but is it really that strong?

I'd suggest that one big problem is that it's not as stark a division between states as we often think it is, because we view the states in terms of their political leadership, not in terms of their population. I saw a map that illustrated this during the last election, let me see if I can find it...

As it turns out, I was thinking of this one from xkcd:

As the twitter thread explained at the time, this map, instead of showing votes by state, shows the approximate location of voters, in units of 250,000.

So while a map showing votes by state might making it look like there's a clear division, when you look at where voters actually are, not so much.

E.g.:

And while we're using voting as an imperfect proxy for the premise, that political alignments, differing to the extent that splitting a nation makes sense, do exist, it seems like a reasonable frame to view the question.

So, if we say that is the case, and a map like this provides some indication of how those different political alignments are actually distributed: how can you divide that up?

 

[Saint by the Bay]

@RobF I actually completely agree with you. I was taking the very basic premise and addressing that. The real division of America tends to be urban vs. rural which is largely driven by the far more white populations in rural America. Anywhere you find diversity you generally find blue. Even rural California is red *cough* Nunez Cow *cough*.

 

[samiam5211]

Nuclear weapons are why this will never happen. You think custody fights are tough in a divorce...imagine the same thing but with nukes.

We have nukes all over the world. The US splitting up would become the biggest national security threat to the rest of the world.

 

[MT15]

Farb: My county went blue in the 2020 election. Our state is much closer to a 50-50 split than not, even though it’s Congressional delegation skews red due to gerrymandering. We had one Dem senator and one GOP senator up until 2016.

Your idea about secession is completely unreasonable and actually offensive. Stop listening to people who are floating this idea - they’re idiots.

 

[zztop]

yeah, lets start small and see if eastern Oregon can ever break off and join the state of Idaho first

 

[JRad]

Broad strokes because it’s late and alcohol

It’s an interesting thought experiment, if nothing else. It’s already been mentioned the reliance the states have on one another, so I don’t think a break up works for most states (CA, TX and NY could probably hold their own). You’d almost have to have some sort of population relocation. I had jokingly mentioned a “swap with someone” type deal in another thread where, for example, an Alabama Democrat and a California Republican could swap places. The federal government basically continues existing as it is, while setting bipartisan floors as norms. The states are more heavily saturated in one way or another and can have more granular laws.

 

[Paul]

Multiculturalism in a multiethnic society often leads to balkanization. Multiethnic nations need a unifying single culture to avoid division.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Please nobody take the repetitive bait and let another thread get Pauled.

 

[Goatman saint]

There are pockets of each belief in each state. California is red in the valley, blue in the cities. No state is any difference, so why even go there? Besides I thought the US had tried this in say 1860 or so.

 

[MT15]

I don’t even think it’s an interesting thought experiment. It’s stupid and about a minute of consideration makes the stupidity obvious.

Anyone who even thinks this has a snowball’s chance lives in an echo chamber, I guarantee it. If you have a normal family and group of friends with a diversity of political leanings, you know there isn’t any state that is homogeneous at all.

 

[Paul]

I don’t even think it’s an interesting thought experiment. It’s stupid and about a minute of consideration makes the stupidity obvious.

Anyone who even thinks this has a snowball’s chance lives in an echo chamber, I guarantee it. If you have a normal family and group of friends with a diversity of political leanings, you know there isn’t any state that is homogeneous at all.

Different opinions among friends or citizens of the same nation is no big deal. As long as we stay away from tribalism and demonizing those with a different point of view, culture, or ethnicity everything should be OK.

 

[MT15]

About demonizing other views:

This is a typical POV from a far right wing site. One that gets a lot of traffic. This is pure demonization of people who believe differently than they do. But tell me again that the “left” is the source of all of this, Paul.

 

[wardorican]

About demonizing other views:

This is a typical POV from a far right wing site. One that gets a lot of traffic. This is pure demonization of people who believe differently than they do. But tell me again that the “left” is the source of all of this, Paul.

Darn it, you made me actually go read all that. What a crazy 'article'.

Anti-Vaxxers Hype Benign 'Case' Numbers as Proof Vax Doesn't Work

Sometimes I wonder if the anti-Trump-Vaccine (ATV) Twitter accounts that flood my feed are authentic.

www.breitbart.com

 

[MT15]

Thank you for your sacrifice. Just the pulled quote is enough that I didn’t read it. Every sentence is a falsehood in one way or another. The idea that “conservatives” aren’t taking the vaccines because of the “left” is just textbook gaslighting.

The idea that the drone hit was anything but a terrible accident is just another example.

Whoever wrote that is just sick and they need help. What’s worse is that people of weak minds who read this sort of tripe will and do just believe it. They believe that the majority of people in this country are sociopaths, they believe that everyone who votes for democrats is a socialist without even knowing what socialism is. We traveled through a rural area this weekend. Saw a sign outside a house that said “are you an American or a democrat?”

This is utter demonization of “others”. It’s un-American, full stop. It’s not coming from both sides.

 

[Farb]

I think it will happen. I think it needs to happen. If we embrace decentralization then we are not just talking about states going their own way, we are talking about new nations states forming. When those form they will be ruled by how they were created in a sense. So yes, you will see new states/countries formed with a backbone of Christianity and those will be set into law. You will see 'inclusive' and states based on equity and those ideas will be written into law.
There won't or doesn't have to be a lottery of citizens between states. If you don't want to live a country that is run under Christian law or Inclusivity then you will move to the new region/state that fits your values. Right now, we don't share basic core values any longer and we are in a loveless and abusive relationship. You are inviting real conflict if this continues, IMO.
As far as 'poor' states making it, I think it will be a drastic reshift of resources and services once the federal government is removed. Now, granted, this will only work if the new states adopt some type of guardrails to ensure that we will not be run into the ground by a bureaucratic dictatorship. Or, if they do, they are on their own. And we should never be tempted to form a quasi federal government like the EU.