All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (3 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[SaintForLife]

The "secret messages" does not show what they claim, but rather the opposite.

See this thread.




What those conspiracy theories are based on is initial evaluation from a ressearch group from winter 2020. Those initial findings were later debunked by the same researchers and this thread contains the internal communication of the group members released to debunk those spreading conspiracy theories that you quoted.

What are you claiming that thread shows? All I see is Moreno claiming they changed their minds after they saw more data, but he doesn't show the parts of the conversation that showed the new data. Vague statements lacking specificity. Nothing like you claimed.

 

[MT15]

Not quite. It's very important information. You just don't want to hear it so you went with spamming. Any comment about the actual subject or just more complaints?

Care to respond to Dragon’s post? I will bet you won’t.

What you are posting is mischaracterizations of conversations, deliberately misconstrued by people who wish to harm this country and sow chaos. You are posting opinions, not evidence.

Edit: you did respond but just with more garbage and without any true understanding. One of the people who you are quoting even admits his conclusion that the scientists are lying is based on “cherry-picked quotes”.

 

[SaintForLife]

Care to respond to Dragon’s post? I will bet you won’t.

What you are posting is mischaracterizations of conversations, deliberately misconstrued by people who wish to harm this country and sow chaos. You are posting opinions, not evidence.

Edit: you did respond but just with more garbage and without any true understanding. One of the people who you are quoting even admits his conclusion that the scientists are lying is based on “cherry-picked quotes”.

Yet another vague response from you that doesn't refute anything.

It's pretty simple. That guy claimed that the conversation shows that they changed their minds based on new data, but nobody has pointed to that part of the conversation and the data that caused them to supposedly change their minds. That would be an easy thing to point out right? Why don't you show me?

The person I posted used cherry picked because the original guy did, but you can clearly see from his posts that he doesn't believe it's cherry picked. He's asking for proof of the claim as I am.

 

[MT15]

SFL: your arguments are garbage. Your people admit they are using “cherry-picked quotes” and then they say they think their “cherry-picked” quotes convey accurately what was happening. Thereby admitting they don’t even care to look for true context, they just want to believe what they already believe.

When people are dead-set on believing something, you literally cannot argue with them. You see your people engage with that above. They ignore anything that doesn’t confirm what they already believe and they even just admit it out in the open. They cannot even understand that is the opposite of what scientists are trained to do. It’s so foreign to them that when they read an open, scientific discussion that moves from one theory to another and considers them and then changes opinions, based on studies as they come out, they immediately just assume bad intentions.

It’s idiotic. I don’t know why these people are doing it, but you shouldn’t given them the time of day. They are quite probably clout-chasing. There is a person there trying to show them context, and they just flat out refuse to entertain it. Dragon showed you context and you just flat out refuse to entertain it. Nobody has time to spoon feed you, as the sane guy says above. And there’s very little evidence that you would believe it even if someone took the time. No evidence, actually. You would just say someone is lying, while believing every word from the people you follow.

 

[MT15]

Yet another vague response from you that doesn't refute anything.

It's pretty simple. That guy claimed that the conversation shows that they changed their minds based on new data, but nobody has pointed to that part of the conversation and the data that caused them to supposedly change their minds. That would be an easy thing to point out right? Why don't you show me?

The person I posted used cherry picked because the original guy did, but you can clearly see from his posts that he doesn't believe it's cherry picked. He's asking for proof of the claim as I am.

Read the tweets from Akcay. Here is one:



Then find and read the actual slack conversations, not someone tweeting about them. That’s what Akcay did.

 

[SaintForLife]

SFL: your arguments are garbage. Your people admit they are using “cherry-picked quotes” and then they say they think their “cherry-picked” quotes convey accurately what was happening. Thereby admitting they don’t even care to look for true context, they just want to believe what they already believe.

When people are dead-set on believing something, you literally cannot argue with them. You see your people engage with that above. They ignore anything that doesn’t confirm what they already believe and they even just admit it out in the open. They cannot even understand that is the opposite of what scientists are trained to do. It’s so foreign to them that when they read an open, scientific discussion that moves from one theory to another and considers them and then changes opinions, based on studies as they come out, they immediately just assume bad intentions.

It’s idiotic. I don’t know why these people are doing it, but you shouldn’t given them the time of day. They are quite probably clout-chasing. There is a person there trying to show them context, and they just flat out refuse to entertain it. Dragon showed you context and you just flat out refuse to entertain it. Nobody has time to spoon feed you, as the sane guy says above. And there’s very little evidence that you would believe it even if someone took the time. No evidence, actually. You would just say someone is lying, while believing every word from the people you follow.

If my arguments are garbage, why don't you post the data that changed their minds? I'll be waiting...

 

[SaintForLife]

 

[MT15]

If my arguments are garbage, why don't you post the data that changed their minds? I'll be waiting...

I gave you the thread to read - did you read it? You have to actually follow the thread. There’s a link there to the entire slack conversation, did you read it?

 

[SaintForLife]

I gave you the thread to read - did you read it? You have to actually follow the thread. There’s a link there to the entire slack conversation, did you read it?

I've seen the thread and read it. There's no data that changed their minds that I see. If there is why don't you post it? Shut me up or continue to deflect?

 

[MT15]

I've seen the thread and read it. There's no data that changed their minds that I see. If there is why don't you post it? Shut me up or continue to deflect?

The slack conversation runs 60 pages. Did you read it?

Honestly - the data is certainly a scientific paper that neither you or I are qualified to read and understand. Your insistence on seeing the paper is just a red herring. The slack conversation tells you everything you need to know, contemporaneously, about what they were thinking and why.

I’m not surprised that you are grasping at straws to avoid confronting the truth, though. There was no huge conspiracy, these well known and accomplished scientists weren’t evil, they were trying to do what they thought was best in a difficult situation where there was changing information. The virus was novel and constantly mutating.

People who go back now, and insist there was a conspiracy where there was none, who insist that good men and women working against a deadly pandemic were evil, though, they do approach evil, IMO. They are the same as the folks who burned witches, as those who punished scientists in history. They are weaponizing ignorance.

 

[SaintForLife]

The slack conversation runs 60 pages. Did you read it?

There's no data that made them change their mind. If so just post it and stop deflecting.

I see yall's newest tactic toward me is to keep asking: Did you even read what you posted.

 

[RobF]

I see yall's newest tactic toward me is to keep asking: Did you even read what you posted.

This is because, when we look at what you've posted, you clearly haven't.

You also don't appear to be reading the replies to you here, because this isn't a new thing at all, it's been happening to you for ages.

Because you keep posting tripe from Twitter that doesn't even stand up to the most basic level of scrutiny.

As here: just reading the discussion referenced shows it to be reasonable, in line with the outcome, and not remotely supporting the wild conspiracy being pushed.

So when you're demanding that be somehow shown to you, what you're actually telling us is that you haven't read it, or you don't understand the most basic elements of it. And no-one is going to waste their time trying to explain basic points to someone who's clearly not only unwilling but actively opposed to understanding them.

Have you considered taking up a new hobby instead of dumping the idiotic conspiracy theories you find on Twitter here? Like maybe knitting? That also involves creating things that are full of holes, but they're a lot more useful.

 

[SaintForLife]

This is because, when we look at what you've posted, you clearly haven't.

You also don't appear to be reading the replies to you here, because this isn't a new thing at all, it's been happening to you for ages.

Because you keep posting tripe from Twitter that doesn't even stand up to the most basic level of scrutiny.

As here: just reading the discussion referenced shows it to be reasonable, in line with the outcome, and not remotely supporting the wild conspiracy being pushed.

So when you're demanding that be somehow shown to you, what you're actually telling us is that you haven't read it, or you don't understand the most basic elements of it. And no-one is going to waste their time trying to explain basic points to someone who's clearly not only unwilling but actively opposed to understanding them.

Have you considered taking up a new hobby instead of dumping the idiotic conspiracy theories you find on Twitter here? Like maybe knitting? That also involves creating things that are full of holes, but they're a lot more useful.

Nice post and all, but it's as simple as MT15 claiming there is data in the slack messages that caused them to change their minds. I asked her to post it since she claimed it contained it. She won't. That's it.

 

[RobF]

Nice post and all, but it's as simple as MT15 claiming there is data in the slack messages that caused them to change their minds. I asked her to post it since she claimed it contained it. She won't. That's it.

'Simple' is one word for it, sure. 'Wrong' is a better one.

I mean, there's an example literally in the tweet @Dragon originally posted. The one that states the discussion "showed in real time how their thinking evolved with new evidence" (although you changed that phrasing to the simpler, and more inaccurate, 'changed their minds', because of course you did).

But the example in the tweet literally starts with the data: "A bit more: (i) sequence confirmed by Sanger; (ii) bats collected May-July 2019, so ~6 months prior; (iii) in most of the virus genome it is the closest to SARS-CoV-2 although not in S; (iv) some very wide ranging recombination events", and then goes on to show them discussing what this data shows and whether they should wait for it to come out before updating their commentary.

So if you read that, and then come here, and say, "Data? But what data? I see no data!" we can only conclude that you haven't read it, or that you're just incapable of comprehending anything being discussed here.

 

[CoolBrees]

The intellectually lazy, developmentally delayed or just plain lacking in critical thinking skills (or simply "Marks") have been falling for conspiracy theories since the con men wrote the Bible.

The intellectually lazy will read the headline or a tag on a Twitter and allow the author to give the Mark their conclusion; since they know their Mark won't read the supporting data (or lack thereof) and will just take their word for it.

The neurodivergent crowd are easy Marks because of their lack of social skills. They yearn to be part of a group but lack the social skill to "fit in" or determine if their new found communication counterpart has their best interest at heart.

Marks that just lack critical thinking skills are the easiest of all - especially now. The con artist leaves a trail of truth adjacent "clues" and then "lets" the Mark come up with their own conclusion. Which of course is the conclusion the Mark is supposed to come to. By saying "they're some saying" or "what I am hearing" they are building a consensus or developing a villain that doesn't exist. Then they leave the clues and connect them for you with innuendo and splash headlines. And Marks make the connections. And then the subjected truth becomes oh so clear to the mark.

The fact is, there aren't grand conspiracies. It's easier to believe there is some evil force rather than accepting you have very little control over your own existence. Rather, they are instances of the weak minded being preyed upon for profit.

 

[Optimus Prime]

so maybe I missed it in either this thread or on EE covid thread but why is so much time and energy spent on where it originated?

To me the tragedy of Covid 19 isn't that we don't know for sure whether it came from a wet market or if it was a lab leak (and we may never know), it's how we handled it once it was out and spreading

If we knew for an absolute fact in April 2020 that it definitely came from the Wuhan lab, okay, what then?

What unfolds any differently knowing that information then?

We'd still have people refusing to mask up, refusing to distance, refusing to quarantine, refusing to get vaccinated, spreading misinformation, still trying to kidnap governors, screaming matches and violence breaking out at school board meetings.

Only different thing I see happening is the already skyrocketed violence and shunning against Asians getting exponentially worse

If we discover proof tomorrow that it came from the lab, okay, what now?

I've always been of the opinion that it was/is a way to deflect and distract from really addressing the colossal fork up that cost tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands of Americans their lives

 

[MT15]

Nice post and all, but it's as simple as MT15 claiming there is data in the slack messages that caused them to change their minds. I asked her to post it since she claimed it contained it. She won't. That's it.

No, come on, you cannot be this dense. There isn’t any “data” in the slack convo, because it’s just that, a conversation between scientists. What is there is a reference to new data, that is most likely contained in an actual scientific paper. To say - where’s the data in the slack conversation just indicates to me that you don’t have a clue what you are looking at. They aren’t going to put the data in their slack conversation for crying out loud.

 

[MT15]

so maybe I missed it in either this thread or on EE covid thread but why is so much time and energy spent on where it originated?

To me the tragedy of Covid 19 isn't that we don't know for sure whether it came from a wet market or if it was a lab leak (and we may never know), it's how we handled it once it was out and spreading

If we knew for an absolute fact in April 2020 that it definitely came from the Wuhan lab, okay, what then?

What unfolds any differently knowing that information then?

We'd still have people refusing to mask up, refusing to distance, refusing to quarantine, refusing to get vaccinated, spreading misinformation, still trying to kidnap governors, screaming matches and violence breaking out at school board meetings.

Only different thing I see happening is the already skyrocketed violence and shunning against Asians getting exponentially worse

If we discover proof tomorrow that it came from the lab, okay, what now?

I've always been of the opinion that it was/is a way to deflect and distract from really addressing the colossal fork up that cost tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands of Americans their lives

Exactly this. And a whole lot of the people trying to focus on this were the same people who are responsible for lies that resulted in preventable deaths from the virus. The people who said masks don’t work, the vaccines are dangerous, Covid is just the flu. Now that we can all see how many people died after listening to their crap, they want to blame Chinese and American scientists.

These people are as close to evil as I care to come across.