All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (4 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[UriUT]

- I feel like you aren’t understanding what the mutation meant or the significance of it.

There were definitely some unknown factors with a new vaccine. I cannot help it if you didn’t and don’t understand what was said. I do remember a lot of caveats when the vaccines first came out, and that they did stop the spread initially. As I keep saying - Delta was essentially a new ball game. We lucked out in that the mRNA vaccines still protected very well against serious disease and death. The mutation could have been such that the virus would evade the immunity from the vaccines entirely. And then we would have seen much more death and serious illness than we did.

I think maybe people who aren’t biologists or virologists probably over-simplify the process of immunity. It’s not a light switch. It‘s more like an internal combustion engine, with lots of moving parts and the ability to run without being completely tuned up. Once Delta emerged, our immunity was like an engine not quite running on all cylinders. It had just enough power to get us there - we could avoid death and serious illness - but it wasn’t running well enough to prevent mild infections or completely stop the spread at that point.

I honestly cannot understand people who are so ignorant make such stupid definitive comments like that while questioning folks like fauci with years of education and experience bc his media bubble feeds his ignorance.. He doesn't understand that mutation is a common occurrence and is the reason why we continually get infected yearly by the flu. And it's common. I heard the same thing at a coffee shop around here. It's frustrating.

Yes, vaccines reduce chances of mutation that may evade our immune system. If the body has prior knowledge of the protein that encoats and protect the dna/rna of the virus, it can clear the virus quicker. By allowing the virus to linger, that allows the virus time to mutate (change the definition of the protective protein) because thats their survival mechanism. For an unvaccinated person, their immune system has to detect that virus, develop specific antibodies, and then clearance. Its more complex but that is the gist. Vaccinated folks already has memory of the virus and their immune system will respond quicker..ie produce antibodies and white blood cells more rapidly. This is why we are getting renewed infections like the pox, measles etc bc people just are too dumb and believe stupid ideas that vaccines cause autism when there are confounding variables.

 

[UriUT]

People thinking Fauci is anything other than a civil servant who (understandably) got in over his head are deluding themselves to paint the world in their own narrative.

I think the only thing he was ill equipped to deal with is the constant conspiracies lobbied against him. He has schooled Rand Paul numerous time despite Paul being an MD and should know better. Fauci is an expert in his field.

 

[UriUT]

I think the mrna tech is great and will be very benifitial down the road. I just don't think the roll out and the tech might not be just there yet, but you are right, they are close and that tech is a great thing for the future.

I think you don't know what you are talking about. The only problem with the roll out is that people were fed lies, fear and conspiracies, which causes resistance to the the vaccine.

 

[RobF]

So China didn’t use the mRNA vaccines, they developed their own. It didn’t work. So no, their whole strategy didn’t work. Their lockdowns were draconian, but they did work, for a while. If their vaccine had been as good as either one of our mRNA vaccines, they would have been better off than we were. But because their vaccine was crap, their strategy failed. They have contributed to global inflation because of their failure.

I don’t believe I ever said you killed anyone. But it’s indisputable that people have died because they refused to take the vaccines. Not a few, but maybe into the hundreds of thousands. And the vaccines have full approval now, so you can stop calling them experimental. Billions of people have taken the vaccines by now.

As I said before - the vaccines did what they were designed to do on the original strain. When it mutated into the Delta strain they still worked, but at a reduced capacity. This is normal for vaccines and to be expected. The vaccines still protected against hospitalization and death at a really high rate on both Delta and Omicron.

There aren’t any significant side effects from the mRNA vaccines.

Focused lockdown strategies, with border control, can work very well - as New Zealand showed for example - even without vaccination. The flaw is, countries have to reopen their borders eventually, and if most of the rest of the world is letting the virus run riot and mutating in the meantime, it'll cross those borders too. Albeit into a better prepared country which had time to vaccinate.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

I saw a little while ago that China demands that pfizer give them the technique and formula of their covid vaccine. Lol

I think folks are a little under appreciative of this mrna technique to produce vaccines. Surely beats incubating via eggs.

Beijing’s failure to import mRNA Covid jabs ‘mind-boggling’, says BeiGene executive

Chinese biotech’s research chief calls decision ‘unfortunate’ as zero-Covid policy strangles economy

www.ft.com

Moderna declined China efforts to hand over mRNA COVID vaccine technology​

Ravikash

Moderna (NASDAQ:MRNA) declined to transfer the core intellectual property (IP) of its mRNA COVID vaccine to China, causing a fallout in discussions on the sale of vaccine there, Financial Times reported on Oct. 1 citing people familiar with the matter.

Moderna refused to hand over the IP vaccine due to commercial and safety concerns, said two people involved in discussions which took place between 2020 and 2021, the report added.

China is yet to approve any mRNA COVID-19 for use in the country and relies mostly on inactivated vaccines. The first China-made mRNA COVID vaccinerecently got an approval not in its home country but in Indonesia.

The Financial Times report added that a person near to the Moderna team in Greater China said the company had "given up" on its prior endeavors to enter the Chinese market, due to China's demand that it hand over the technology as a prerequisite for selling in the Asian country.

Earlier in September, a Reuters report noted that, Moderna CEO Stephane Bancel said that the company had discussed with the Chinese government about providing COVID-19 vaccines, but no decision had been reached.

Financial Times report added that Beijing has followed two approaches to allow foreign COVID vaccine distribution in China — the companies need to either undertake a full technology transfer to a domestic drugmaker or set up a manufacturing facility in China with a local partner, while keeping control of the main technology. Moderna was pressed to take the transfer technology option, the report noted.

BioNTech (NASDAQ:BNTX) had entered an agreement with Chinese partner Shanghai Fosun Pharmaceutical Group to conduct trial and then sell the vaccine, which meant retaining control of the IP. Under the contract, Fosun agreed to provide a factory which would manufacture up to 1B doses a year, the Financial Times noted.

However, according to a prior Bloomberg News report, the regulatory path is not clear despite filing from Chinese partner Fosun.

U.S. mRNA vaccine makers, Moderna (MRNA) and Pfizer (NYSE:PFE), were the first to get approval for this type of vaccine in the U.S. and EU.

 

[MT15]

Fittingly enough, even science is not an exact science. Especially when dealing with a new virus. If only it were as infallible as religion...

And I'm not aware of any money he made outside of his salary. Is he getting some kickbacks or something?

I believe he has to file financial disclosures annually. And has done so for decades. But that didn’t stop people from lying about his finances.

 

[SFIDC3]

Thanks to this thread for confirming that there are some idiots out there who still think vaccines = cures…..

 

[Farb]

- I feel like you aren’t understanding what the mutation meant or the significance of it.

There were definitely some unknown factors with a new vaccine. I cannot help it if you didn’t and don’t understand what was said. I do remember a lot of caveats when the vaccines first came out, and that they did stop the spread initially. As I keep saying - Delta was essentially a new ball game. We lucked out in that the mRNA vaccines still protected very well against serious disease and death. The mutation could have been such that the virus would evade the immunity from the vaccines entirely. And then we would have seen much more death and serious illness than we did.

I think maybe people who aren’t biologists or virologists probably over-simplify the process of immunity. It’s not a light switch. It‘s more like an internal combustion engine, with lots of moving parts and the ability to run without being completely tuned up. Once Delta emerged, our immunity was like an engine not quite running on all cylinders. It had just enough power to get us there - we could avoid death and serious illness - but it wasn’t running well enough to prevent mild infections or completely stop the spread at that point.

We were told the vaccines stopped the transmission. Biden said that repeadily. Turns out the companies didn't even test that it stopped transmission. Would you consider that a lie?
The vaccine in of itself is not a problem. It was great for seniors and those that were compromised but to try and mandate everyone take it based on a the false narrative that it will stop the spread is what has caused the distrust you see today in all government agencies. Like it or not, that is the truth.

 

[Farb]

Fittingly enough, even science is not an exact science. Especially when dealing with a new virus. If only it were as infallible as religion...

And I'm not aware of any money he made outside of his salary. Is he getting some kickbacks or something?

I know he got a cool million from Israel for some reason. It also appears he and his wife gained over 5 million during the pandemic. Where there is smoke....
The one reason I want Rs in office right now is I want to see that investigation happen.

 

[Farb]

I think you don't know what you are talking about. The only problem with the roll out is that people were fed lies, fear and conspiracies, which causes resistance to the the vaccine.

Like the misinformation that it prevented infection? That lie?

 

[Farb]

I think the only thing he was ill equipped to deal with is the constant conspiracies lobbied against him. He has schooled Rand Paul numerous time despite Paul being an MD and should know better. Fauci is an expert in his field.

I think you don't know what you are talking about.

You were a big fan of double and triple masking after he told us masks would do nothing?

I mentioned earlier, if Rs take the house and senate, you will see an investigation on Fauci and I personally can not wait despite the growing cries for a pandemic amnesty by the left.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

We were told the vaccines stopped the transmission. Biden said that repeadily. Turns out the companies didn't even test that it stopped transmission. Would you consider that a lie?
The vaccine in of itself is not a problem. It was great for seniors and those that were compromised but to try and mandate everyone take it based on a the false narrative that it will stop the spread is what has caused the distrust you see today in all government agencies. Like it or not, that is the truth.

No, that isn't the truth.

 

[MT15]

We were told the vaccines stopped the transmission. Biden said that repeadily. Turns out the companies didn't even test that it stopped transmission. Would you consider that a lie?
The vaccine in of itself is not a problem. It was great for seniors and those that were compromised but to try and mandate everyone take it based on a the false narrative that it will stop the spread is what has caused the distrust you see today in all government agencies. Like it or not, that is the truth.

Do you know the protocols for vaccine research? There normally isn’t “testing” of transmission. Do you know why? Because then they would have to purposefully expose people to a deadly virus. And some of them would have to be unvaccinated to provide a control group. This isn’t a good idea. So the people that are putting this idea into your head either don’t know any better or they know, but are purposefully misleading you. Will you take that into consideration when reading these sources in the future?

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

I know he got a cool million from Israel for some reason. It also appears he and his wife gained over 5 million during the pandemic. Where there is smoke....
The one reason I want Rs in office right now is I want to see that investigation happen.

Is there a source for that?

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

I think you don't know what you are talking about.

You were a big fan of double and triple masking after he told us masks would do nothing?

I mentioned earlier, if Rs take the house and senate, you will see an investigation on Fauci and I personally can not wait despite the growing cries for a pandemic amnesty by the left.

What on earth are they going to investigate Fauci for?

 

[UriUT]

I think you don't know what you are talking about.

You were a big fan of double and triple masking after he told us masks would do nothing?

I mentioned earlier, if Rs take the house and senate, you will see an investigation on Fauci and I personally can not wait despite the growing cries for a pandemic amnesty by the left.

You still don't understand what a vaccine actually does.

Here is an article that describes it, albeit a little technical.

B cell memory: understanding COVID-19

Immunological memory is a mechanism to protect us against reinfection. Antibodies produced by B cells are integral to this defense strategy and underlie virtually all vaccine success. Here, we explain how B cell memory is generated by infection and vaccination, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A hallmark of immune responses to pathogens is to create a memory of the response, which is the persistence of small numbers of pathogen-specific B and T cells and the PCs that secrete pathogen-specific Abs. Immune memory may block future infections without symptoms developing either by continued production of neutralizing Abs from long-lived PCs or, if that Ab amount diminishes, by recalling memory B and T cells to rapidly produce new PBs and thus restore high-affinity, neutralizing Abs in circulation. Protection from infection is also generated through vaccination, relying also on the continued or restored production of pathogen-specific, neutralizing Abs.

That is: vaccination allows our immune system to have memory of a virus and react quickly without having the actual infection.

Here another:

What doctors wish patients knew about how well COVID-19 vaccines work

There have been individuals who were vaccinated and boosted yet still acquired SARS-CoV-2. Does that mean vaccination is ineffective? Find out with the AMA.

www.ama-assn.org

“When it comes to vaccines, there are a few things that we look for. The most important thing for efficacy in vaccines is, of course, preventing the most serious complications,” said Dr. Parikh. “That includes death, hospitalizations and then—even if you’re not hospitalized—a lot of long-term complications that you can get from any given infection.

“So, that could be long COVID, for example, or blood clots, breathing issues and lung damage that can persist after the fact. There’s a whole list of them,” she added, noting “those are some of the most important efficacy endpoints.”

For example, if a vaccine has an efficacy of 80%, that doesn’t mean you have a 20% chance of getting the disease, Dr. Parikh explained. “It depends on what the clinical endpoints are (i.e., symptomatic infection versus death versus hospitalization), but it’s usually looking at getting symptomatic infection, so that means 80% of the people didn’t get it and likely more prevented severe outcomes.”

Here again, it's about the immune system!!!

“With most of the initial studies, they’re looking at not just antibody levels, but also other parts of your immune system like your T cells to make sure they are still recognizing and protecting you against the virus itself,” said Dr. Parikh. “One would argue that that’s even more important, because it’s those T cells—even though nobody talks about them—that keep people from getting very ill and staying out of the hospital and intensive care unit.”

And this is very important!

“While a vaccine starts protecting you within weeks of immunization, maximum effectiveness is once a population has been vaccinated for many years and it is that herd immunity everyone talks about where the actual infections themselves become few and far between,” said Dr. Parikh. “There’s a lot of talk about herd immunity and things like that. We have seen real world examples of this with polio and measles.

This is what I referred to when I talked about mutations. Viral replication aren't exact, mistakes happen and mutations happen. You allow time, replication will produce mutation that our body will not be able to recognize that virus.

In regard to masks. Yes it is effective. I posted once how it eliminated 2 strands of the influenza virus. Don't believe me??? Here from the AMA.

What doctors wish patients knew about wearing N95 masks

The CDC recommends N95 or KN95 masks in public indoor spaces to best protect against SARS-CoV-2. Two doctors share their tips on using these masks.

www.ama-assn.org

In fact, N95 and KN95 masks were found to be 48% more effective than surgical or cloth masks, according to a CDC study. Wearing an N95 or KN95 mask reduces the odds of testing positive for SARS-CoV-2 by 83%. This is compared with 66% for surgical masks and 56% for cloth masks, further pushing the need to swap out such face coverings for an N95 or KN95 mask for protection from SARS-CoV-2.

Reducing the risk of contracting covid even via a cloth mask is 56%!!!! That isn't useless.

 

[MT15]

I think you don't know what you are talking about.

You were a big fan of double and triple masking after he told us masks would do nothing?

I mentioned earlier, if Rs take the house and senate, you will see an investigation on Fauci and I personally can not wait despite the growing cries for a pandemic amnesty by the left.

Growing cries for pandemic amnesty? Lol. Where do you get this stuff? I’ve not heard anything like this. Certainly not from Fauci. If you think Fauci did something illegal, I think you’re high on your own supply.

 

[UriUT]

Growing cries for pandemic amnesty? Lol. Where do you get this stuff? I’ve not heard anything like this. Certainly not from Fauci. If you think Fauci did something illegal, I think you’re high on your own supply.

It's another Benghazi. Theater outrage with little truth behind it. All red meat, except benghazi was designed to harm Hilary. This is to take vengeance at a civil servant that refused to bend the knee to their god king.