All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (1 Viewer)

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Maxp

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I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?
 

Farb

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I mentioned earlier that preprint paper you'd referred to did find that 'Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.' Specific excerpt:

Examining previously infected individuals to those who were both previously infected and received a single dose of the vaccine, we found that the latter group had a significant 0.53-fold (95% CI, 0.3 to 0.92) (Table 4a) decreased risk for reinfection, as 20 had a positive RT-PCR test, compared to 37 in the previously infected and unvaccinated group. Symptomatic disease was present in 16 single dose vaccinees and in 23 of their unvaccinated counterparts. One COVID-19-related hospitalization occurred in the unvaccinated previously infected group. No COVID19-related mortality was recorded.​
So while it's a still emerging picture, particularly with regard to Delta (when you're talking about gathering data for people being initially infected, and reinfected, for both people who've been previously infected and haven't been vaccinated to contrast against people who've been previously infected and vaccinated, it takes time for that data to build up), there is evidence that you might be better off with the jab, yes.
Even though I already had a non symptomatic case of Delta?

There are more and more studies showing the opposite. I think the doctors are starting to see this too as I know 3 people now that their doctors are advised against getting the jab due to previous infection and 1 was yesterday.
 

CoolBrees

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@Farb -

who are the Delta employees going to sue?

Delta? No, they are a private company and they can do whatever they want. They can require you to show up dressed in arse-less chaps and sing “It’s Raining Men” if they so choose. And you have no choice or recourse other than to comply or quit. That is the cold hard truth. The free market you guys love so much hard at work.

Basically, Delta Airlines, every single private company, and even the federal government don’t owe you a job. Free market and all. So they aren’t mandating a vaccine. They are mandating a vaccine if you want to work here which is oh so very legal.

Lemme guess. You voted to turn your state into a Right to Work state years ago? Thought that it would punish those lazy union folks? Reap the whirlwind.
 

Farb

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I also have a question, why is there this war on the unvaxed? Do we really think the virus would have gone away if everyone was vaxed and wore masks all the time? That cannot be the case because fully vaxxed are having break through cases right now.

If you want to get the jab, awesome, go for it but for those that don't, regardless of their personal reasons are seen as 'anti science' or whatever. Why lump everyone together? Is it just easier?
 

CoolBrees

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I have no idea what you are talking about.

war? Have some respect for those that actually served in war.

private businesses don’t have wars and they aren’t political. They are businesses and they do what is best for business. Period. Board Rooms do not convene to discuss how to screw over nonvaxxers. They looked at the costs vs doing nothing and came up with an ROI - you the employee being the I. You aren’t worth enough to keep around. Sorry.
 

Farb

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@Farb -

who are the Delta employees going to sue?

Delta? No, they are a private company and they can do whatever they want. They can require you to show up dressed in arse-less chaps and sing “It’s Raining Men” if they so choose. And you have no choice or recourse other than to comply or quit. That is the cold hard truth. The free market you guys love so much hard at work.

Basically, Delta Airlines, every single private company, and even the federal government don’t owe you a job. Free market and all. So they aren’t mandating a vaccine. They are mandating a vaccine if you want to work here which is oh so very legal.

Lemme guess. You voted to turn your state into a Right to Work state years ago? Thought that it would punish those lazy union folks? Reap the whirlwind.
I don't know what to tell you, there are several lawsuits and more to come against the Administration.

This is exactly why people don't trust this and don't want the jab. This either your with us or against us attitude.

I do think this will lead to a lot more than everyone thought and it won't be good.
 

CoolBrees

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There are federal employees trying to sue the federal government.

those suits will be summarily dismissed. Nobody owes you a job
 

Farb

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I have no idea what you are talking about.

war? Have some respect for those that actually served in war.

private businesses don’t have wars and they aren’t political. They are businesses and they do what is best for business. Period. Board Rooms do not convene to discuss how to screw over nonvaxxers. They looked at the costs vs doing nothing and came up with an ROI - you the employee being the I. You aren’t worth enough to keep around. Sorry.
LMAO. I am sorry, this drama post was a little much even for you Mr. Grouchy Pants.

What about he war on drugs, war on poverty, war on crime, war on religion, do they all get the same virtue signaling remarks too or just me because I think getting the jab is not a wise decision on my part. No need to answer. I will let you get back to your assault on the federal courthouse.
 

Farb

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There are federal employees trying to sue the federal government.

those suits will be summarily dismissed. Nobody owes you a job
So no one owes me a living wage or unemployment benefits either? Is that anyone or just those that didn't get the jab

Is a college a federal government? What about a hospital?
 

CoolBrees

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well it is 9/11 so I thought might not be a great day to hyperbolize war. But I am MGP (for short).

I digress

What courthouse assault are you referring to?

look man. It isn’t my call if you get the shot or not. I live on the other side of the country. I haven’t even said what my opinion is on the mandates. Just that these lawsuits are going to go nowhere because of laws passed by the very same people who are complaining. that they caused this situation and now they are complaining about it. I find that……amusing
 

CoolBrees

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So no one owes me a living wage or unemployment benefits either? Is that anyone or just those that didn't get the jab

Is a college a federal government? What about a hospital?
Ok so this a turning into a good discussion.

I quoted you because this is a great point.

Your employer doesn’t owe you a living wage but they DO owe you unemployment benefits. That is required by law currently.

But as an employer I run the risk of not having a workforce if I do not pay a competitive wage. That whole ROI thing.

Colleges are state run institutions. They receive public and private dollars. They, like any other public campus (train stations, airports, etc) must keep the public safe by law.

Hospitals are privately owned. They can do whatever they want
 

JRad

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Do we really think the virus would have gone away if everyone was vaxed and wore masks all the time?
Masks and vaccinations lower the possible attack vectors. Fewer attack vectors = lower change of the virus finding a host. Does it magically give up overnight? Of course not. But we haven’t eradicated other diseases through this similar kind of “oh well, fork it” attitude.

100 masked and vax’d folks in one room doesn’t give the virus much to work with
100 masked and non-vax’d may slow transmission, but you’re gonna have less immunity in this room as opposed to the first
100 unmasked and unvaxed isn’t stopping anything

Now throw all 300 of those people in one room. If you’re the virus, group 3 is your in to group 2 -> group 1. I have slightly elevated risk with COVID, put yourself in my shoes. I’m in group 1, doing everything I can do to protect myself, and the folks in group 3 can’t be bothered to do the bare minimum to help protect me. So why am I supposed to care about what you (royal you) think? A couple I’m good friends with have been even more careful than I have (I dropped my mask after I got vax‘d, they didn’t), and their daughter picked COVID up from school. “We’ve done everything right, and because of someone else, my child is now sick”. So why are they supposed to care what (royal) you think? They did everything right, and because someone else couldn’t be bothered to do the bare minimum, their child got sick.

There isn’t a ”war” against the unvaccinated. There’s just a total lack of empathy for a bunch of self-centered jerks who couldn’t be bothered to show any of their own for the last year and a half.
 

Farb

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Masks and vaccinations lower the possible attack vectors. Fewer attack vectors = lower change of the virus finding a host. Does it magically give up overnight? Of course not. But we haven’t eradicated other diseases through this similar kind of “oh well, fork it” attitude.

100 masked and vax’d folks in one room doesn’t give the virus much to work with
100 masked and non-vax’d may slow transmission, but you’re gonna have less immunity in this room as opposed to the first
100 unmasked and unvaxed isn’t stopping anything

Now throw all 300 of those people in one room. If you’re the virus, group 3 is your in to group 2 -> group 1. I have slightly elevated risk with COVID, put yourself in my shoes. I’m in group 1, doing everything I can do to protect myself, and the folks in group 3 can’t be bothered to do the bare minimum to help protect me. So why am I supposed to care about what you (royal you) think? A couple I’m good friends with have been even more careful than I have (I dropped my mask after I got vax‘d, they didn’t), and their daughter picked COVID up from school. “We’ve done everything right, and because of someone else, my child is now sick”. So why are they supposed to care what (royal) you think? They did everything right, and because someone else couldn’t be bothered to do the bare minimum, their child got sick.

There isn’t a ”war” against the unvaccinated. There’s just a total lack of empathy for a bunch of self-centered jerks who couldn’t be bothered to show any of their own for the last year and a half.
All of that make sense, but how do we know the daughter picked it up from an unvaxed person? Could it not be just as likely as she got it from a vaxed person, even a vaxed person that masked? One thing I think science is lining up on is that naturals are less likely to carry and transmit the virus than the vaxed.

I wonder if since Ole Joe promised to vanquish the virus in 100 days and even with 100% vaccine rates, that turned out to be impossible because this genie was let out of the bottle. So, the new strategy was to blame someone and we get blame. Much like in the last 3 days after the talking points start swirling, Afghanistan is now everyone's else fault but the current guy in charge....hell, it is even our fault individually and he did a great job of saving by an airlift.

I know this is a alt-right conspiracy to you all, but it is something I just thought of as I typed so I need to deep dive into this tonight when I am drinking and grilling.

And, I appreciate the honest reply. How you described it actually made sense to me, so thanks for that too.
 

Goatman saint

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Farb— you are actually on the right side in a way. Your pervious infection with Covid does provide good protection against it. If you had an asymptomatic case of delta your protection is very strong.
However, we tried that road. Vaccinated people all good, unvaccinated mask. Yeah that worked for two weeks. All we have is your word that you have had it, and short of test results you carry around, hard to prove.
What being vaccinated and having had a case of Covid offers you is dang near bulletproof protection against any version of SARS. They created a giant mutant and tested that combo against it in tissue culture. Perfect protection. So if you got the jab, you’d be completely immune to this and any near variant.
Now as far as the lawsuits, it won’t work. Starting in the early 1900s-1904 I believe, the Supreme Court has steadfastly supported public vaccinations. Unless the Supreme Court is going to overturn over 100 years of precedent for no good reason, all these will be shot down and quickly.
Besides, most are employer mandates. Guess all those years of republicans pushing a wall and essentially letting business have free reign to do as they want isn’t so nice now that it’s directed against you and those like you. Oh well….

Now actually unemployment could be argued as you are defying to follow company guidelines which won’t usually get you unemployment if you are fired for that reason.

and yes I want to see everyone vaccinated. I want to travel. I want to work with a frigging mask. I want parts that I order to not take 3-4 months to get to me. I want life to be back to normal, and that ain’t gonna happen until this thing is done.
 

JRad

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All of that make sense, but how do we know the daughter picked it up from an unvaxed person? Could it not be just as likely as she got it from a vaxed person, even a vaxed person that masked? One thing I think science is lining up on is that naturals are less likely to carry and transmit the virus than the vaxed.

I wonder if since Ole Joe promised to vanquish the virus in 100 days and even with 100% vaccine rates, that turned out to be impossible because this genie was let out of the bottle. So, the new strategy was to blame someone and we get blame. Much like in the last 3 days after the talking points start swirling, Afghanistan is now everyone's else fault but the current guy in charge....hell, it is even our fault individually and he did a great job of saving by an airlift.

I know this is a alt-right conspiracy to you all, but it is something I just thought of as I typed so I need to deep dive into this tonight when I am drinking and grilling.

And, I appreciate the honest reply. How you described it actually made sense to me, so thanks for that too.
I mean technically, she and her classmates are too young, so it would have been an unvaxed person haha. But both of those were more "here's how we see it", which you did acknowledge. (For context, I'm in Ascension Parish, and unmasked greatly outnumbers masked, so you're usually safe in the assumption)

The 100 days was always a pipe dream, and honestly I thought more than 60% vaccinated was too. And just for the record, I think I've agreed with you on the ol' 'Stan, so there's not some hard narrative always running counter to what you're saying. Trump may have set that stage, but the buck stops with who is office, as far as I'm concerned.

Look, I'm all about healthy skepticism. The "I'm not getting vaccinated because [nonsense]" is what really gets me. The people who just refuse to acknowledge COVID exists. The group who when you ask "what did your doctor say" just change the subject. As far as I'm concerned, if you haven't had a real talk with your doctor, "I'm doing my research" is bullshirt. Truth be told, if you wanna go without a shot but stayed masked up, I'll meet you halfway. And now to go finally move the smoker back from its hurricane shelter so I can do the same.
 

MT15

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Do we really think the virus would have gone away if everyone was vaxed and wore masks all the time?

YES!!!!! Oh my god, YES!!!!! You are starting to get it now. Remember before Delta came, when cases were as low as they had been since April 2020? The Delta variant wouldn’t have found enough room to grow and flourish.

Oh, and breakthrough cases would still happen, they would be rare and mild. It wouldn’t be killing people, certainly not young people and children. Our hospitals wouldn’t be ordering portable morgues and asking for help from the National Guard. My hospital is the worst it’s been since the pandemic started. We have suspended all elective surgeries that require an overnight bed. Oh, and elective just means not life threatening. So people who need tumors removed or hips replaced or ACL’s repaired will just have to wait.

Also, reading and interpretation of scientific studies is complicated and best left to the experts. I don’t generally read the studies, but I do read what various doctors and scientists say about them. Some of your studies were discussed recently on Twitter. I cannot find it again, and I looked. But the discussion centered on some data massaging that had been done in the Israeli study. And other studies have shown that people who have been vaccinated have more resistance to variants.

It’s way to early to make the assumption that if you had Covid your immunity cannot be enhanced by also getting vaccinated. In fact at least one study I saw discussed by doctors concluded people who had the virus and the vaccine had better immunity than either one alone.
 

Farb

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Farb— you are actually on the right side in a way. Your pervious infection with Covid does provide good protection against it. If you had an asymptomatic case of delta your protection is very strong.
However, we tried that road. Vaccinated people all good, unvaccinated mask. Yeah that worked for two weeks. All we have is your word that you have had it, and short of test results you carry around, hard to prove.
What being vaccinated and having had a case of Covid offers you is dang near bulletproof protection against any version of SARS. They created a giant mutant and tested that combo against it in tissue culture. Perfect protection. So if you got the jab, you’d be completely immune to this and any near variant.
Now as far as the lawsuits, it won’t work. Starting in the early 1900s-1904 I believe, the Supreme Court has steadfastly supported public vaccinations. Unless the Supreme Court is going to overturn over 100 years of precedent for no good reason, all these will be shot down and quickly.
Besides, most are employer mandates. Guess all those years of republicans pushing a wall and essentially letting business have free reign to do as they want isn’t so nice now that it’s directed against you and those like you. Oh well….

Now actually unemployment could be argued as you are defying to follow company guidelines which won’t usually get you unemployment if you are fired for that reason.

and yes I want to see everyone vaccinated. I want to travel. I want to work with a frigging mask. I want parts that I order to not take 3-4 months to get to me. I want life to be back to normal, and that ain’t gonna happen until this thing is done.
The one thing I wasn't to push back on/ ask about is if this is a slam dunk legal decision on the horizon, why did the administration just not mandate it themselves, why have to use Oscha? He even said he doesn't have the power to do it but like the eviction thing he saddled up the CCD (haven't they taken a beating lately on their own)?

And so we are clear, my biggest grip for the Republicans is they don't use the power they have much less try and over reach and lets courts figure it out. Yes, they do let courts handle it some. But in a way, I like hard the ball the Dems play with their power, I wish the Repubs would do it too, that is why I have lost all faith the GOP as a party. None of that makes sense, I know. Time for a beers.
 

MT15

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Could it not be just as likely as she got it from a vaxed person, even a vaxed person that masked? One thing I think science is lining up on is that naturals are less likely to carry and transmit the virus than the vaxed.
If by “naturals” you mean people like you with natural immunity, I haven’t seen any data comparing the two.

But I have read about studies comparing nasal viral loads between vaxxed people with a breakthrough infection and unvaxxed people with an infection. (Nasal viral loads are thought to correspond to ability to spread the virus.)

Basically the study found that while vaxxed people and unvaxxed had similar nasal viral loads for the first day or two, the vaxxed people’s nasal viral load then dropped to negligible very quickly after that. Unvaxxed people getting the virus the first time had high nasal viral loads for several days longer, maybe a whole week I forget.

So, compared to people who are unvaxxed with no natural immunity, vaccinated people are less likely to spread the virus around. This is where masks, good ventilation and social distancing can help a great deal.
 

MT15

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This is worth considering. But, in order to work people would have to be okay with daily testing for children exposed to the virus.

Considering we have had guys showing up to schools with zip ties in hand to make a “citizen’s arrest” of a principal because their child was asked to stay home for a few days after being exposed, I don’t think these folks would be okay with it.

The virus is the enemy. Not the scientists, not the doctors, not the public health experts, not the CDC. You would think that wouldn’t have to be said.

 

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