All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (3 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[wardorican]

I've actually been consistent on this point.

This is from last week.

Fair enough, not a pivot. You were circling back to an original point that I forgot about. Sorry about mischaracterizing that.

 

[superchuck500]

 

[superchuck500]

It's not a "smear". Fauci said what he said. You see multiple paragraphs essays in this thread right now trying to justify it. Also, if you think the lab leak theory has a decent chance of being true. That really makes guys like Fauci look horrible. Fauci was a proponent of gain of function research, and apparently they bypassed federal oversight to fund the Wuhan lab. I would argue if anything Fauci has gotten far to much of a free pass. Fauci still labels lab leak as a conspiracy theory. It's not like he's lied before, and might be doing it again for self preservation.

I'll be honest. If you really look at the only (circumstantial) evidence available for the origin of the virus. It points to a lab leak.

1. U.S. cables talking about unsafe practices at the lab.
2. This lab was studying gain of function on the exact kind of bat coronaviruses that is covid-19.
3. Workers get sick at the lab before the outbreak with covid like symptoms.
4. China scrubbed early patient data.
5. China will not let the WHO, or anyone interview the researchers at the Wuhan lab.
6. No one can find a less contagious version of covid found before the outbreak. (For zoonotic origin to be true, this should exist.)

Why is anyone in America making excuses for China? It's on China to provide full cooperation, and transparency. If not, America, and the rest of the world SHOULD act like the worst case scenario happened. A military bioweapon was malicious released into their own population for plausible deniability.

The recent WHO Origins report (March 30 2021) concluded that the laboratory pathway possibility was "extremely unlikely" - with the most compelling evidence coming from the genome and serological analysis (the Sars-CoV-2 virus is evolutionarily different from known lab samples and could not be cultured with known lab samples, and serological (blood) analysis from lab workers found no evidence of infection with this virus):

Arguments in favour :

Although rare, laboratory accidents do happen, and different laboratories around the world are working with bat CoVs. When working in particular with virus cultures, but also with animal inoculations or clinical samples, humans could become infected in laboratories with limited biosafety, poor laboratory management practice, or following negligence. The closest known CoV RaTG13 strain (96.2%) to SARS-CoV-2 detected in bat anal swabs have been sequenced at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The Wuhan CDC laboratory moved on 2nd December 2019 to a new location near the Huanan market. Such moves can be disruptive for the operations of any laboratory.


Arguments against:

The closest relatives of SARS-CoV-2 from bats and pangolin are evolutionarily distant from SARSCoV-2. There has been speculation regarding the presence of human ACE2 receptor binding and a furin-cleavage site in SARS-CoV-2, but both have been found in animal viruses as well, and elements of the furin-cleavage site are present in RmYN02 and the new Thailand bat SARSr-CoV. There is no record of viruses closely related to SARS-CoV-2 in any laboratory before December 2019, or genomes that in combination could provide a SARS-CoV-2 genome. Regarding accidental culture, prior to December 2019, there is no evidence of circulation of SARS-CoV-2 among people globally and the surveillance programme in place was limited regarding the number of samples processed and therefore the risk of accidental culturing SARS-CoV-2 in the laboratory is extremely low. The three laboratories in Wuhan working with either CoVs diagnostics and/or CoVs isolation and vaccine development all had high quality biosafety level (BSL3 or 4) facilities that were well-managed, with a staff health monitoring programme with no reporting of COVID-19 compatible respiratory illness during the weeks/months prior to December 2019, and no serological evidence of infection in workers through SARS-CoV-2-specific serology-screening. The Wuhan CDC lab which moved on 2nd December 2019 reported no disruptions or incidents caused by the move. They also reported no storage nor laboratory activities on CoVs or other bat viruses preceding the outbreak.

Assessment of likelihood:

In view of the above, a laboratory origin of the pandemic was considered to be extremely unlikely.

Until it is known for sure, no possibility can be ruled out but the zoological route is far more persuasive at this point.

Virus origin / Origins of the SARS-CoV-2 virus

“Laboratory diagnostics for novel coronavirus”

www.who.int

 

[insidejob]

Serious question, y'all. How many of you have taken both doses of the Moderna vaccine and what side effects did you have? If you don't think you had any real side effects, how would you say you felt for the next few days after taking it?

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Serious question, y'all. How many of you have taken both doses of the Moderna vaccine and what side effects did you have? If you don't think you had any real side effects, how would you say you felt for the next few days after taking it?

I was very lethargic and had flu like symptoms for about 48 hours after my second shot.

 

[zztop]

Mississippi apparently has a glut of 73,000 doses

Why Mississippi Has Few Takers for 73,000 Covid Shots (Published 2021)

The good news: There are more shots available. The challenge is getting people to take them.

www.nytimes.com

 

[zztop]

Serious question, y'all. How many of you have taken both doses of the Moderna vaccine and what side effects did you have? If you don't think you had any real side effects, how would you say you felt for the next few days after taking it?

people are posting their experiences on the topic in the EE board, but I'll repost mine here (only took one dose so far, I read the second is worse symptoms for some)

Day 1: mild soreness in the area of injection, mild to medium nausea
Day 2: much worse arm soreness, could hardly move it w/o feeling some pain. Nausea mostly gone, replaced by a feeling like I was worn down and about to catch a cold
Day 3: arm soreness almost gone, no nausea and I feel vastly better, the feeling that I was about to get a cold has gone away

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Serious question, y'all. How many of you have taken both doses of the Moderna vaccine and what side effects did you have? If you don't think you had any real side effects, how would you say you felt for the next few days after taking it?

I had about 8 hours of an overnight fever. My girlfriend ran a fever for about 48 hours. Both occurred after our second dose.

 

[SaintForLife]

Are we still talking about Florida? The state which tried to suppress the information that their covid reporting app was relaying (because it was reporting higher cases than the governor wanted it to show).

Florida Health Department manager told to delete coronavirus data is ousted

She said she was offered a settlement and the option to resign in lieu of being fired.

www.tampabay.com

She was asked to manipulate the data, she refused and they fired her.

Rebekah Jones is a liar.

NPR describes Jones as a “top scientist” leading Florida’s pandemic response. In fact, Jones has held three jobs in her field; all three have ended in her being terminated and criminally charged. She has a Master’s in geography from Louisiana State University, where she worked until she was fired. She was arrested in 2016 while, reportedly, trespassing on campus and attempting to steal computer equipment from her former workplace. She then lectured at Florida State University (FSU) and began researching tropical storms for a dissertation, but never earned a Ph.D. as she was suspended and fired in 2018 after her former student accused her of sexual cyberharassment. Before her termination from the DoH, she was a geographic information systems manager, overseeing the COVID-19 web portal.

It’s therefore misleading to imply Jones has specialized knowledge of infectious disease. Florida’s top Democratic official calls her “Dr. Rebekah Jones,” but Jones is no doctor. Nor is she an epidemiologist, virologist, statistician, or public health professional; the DoH has a highly qualified team of those. A technical manager, Jones didn’t have the authority or expertise to decide unilaterally how to visualize data. But when experts disagreed with her, she assumed they were wrong—or deliberately deceiving the public.

After she was fired from the DoH for a pattern of insubordination, Jones claimed that Deputy Secretary for Health Shamarial Roberson had asked her to “manipulate data to mislead the public” about the safety of reopening rural counties. According to Dr. Roberson, this is “patently false.” Emails show a state epidemiologist told Jones to temporarily disable data export from the dashboard to verify dates against other official sources. The data was aggregated from local public health authorities in 67 counties; it couldn’t be falsified or hidden. In other words, Jones is no “whistleblower.” She’s a conspiracy theorist.

The ‘Florida Covid-19 whistleblower’ saga Is a big lie

Rebekah Jones, the narrative, and the truth.

humanevents.com

The Democrats must be terrified of DeSantis winning the Presidency in 2024. The memo has gone out to attack DeSantis as much as possible. Look at the revent hit job by CBS News and this ridiculous article:

 

[CoolBrees]

Oh please nominate DeSantis. Please. That neckless ghoul doesn’t have the con man narcissism and alleged billions that Trump did. Nominating anyone cut from the same political cloth as Trump- other than Trump himself- will totally flame on the national stage. Like completely and totally.

 

[zztop]

humanevents.com a place that has charlie kirk and rush limbaugh as "trending" topics. And where clicking on "about" has charlie kirk listed as a "senior content creator" and where if you look at other trending topics they seem to mostly be about are about MSM this and MSM that lol

 

[SaintForLife]

humanevents.com a place that has charlie kirk and rush limbaugh as "trending" topics. And where clicking on "about" has charlie kirk listed as a "senior content creator" and where if you look at other trending topics they seem to mostly be about are about MSM this and MSM that lol

You obviously didn't research who Rebekah Jones was before you posted that article. Can you point out what was inaccurate about the article I posted?

Here's a different source:

 

[J-DONK]

The recent WHO Origins report (March 30 2021) concluded that the laboratory pathway possibility was "extremely unlikely" - with the most compelling evidence coming from the genome and serological analysis (the Sars-CoV-2 virus is evolutionarily different from known lab samples and could not be cultured with known lab samples, and serological (blood) analysis from lab workers found no evidence of infection with this virus):



Until it is known for sure, no possibility can be ruled out but the zoological route is far more persuasive at this point.

Virus origin / Origins of the SARS-CoV-2 virus

“Laboratory diagnostics for novel coronavirus”

www.who.int

Then you have virologist on the other side of this:

With Virus Origins Still Obscure, W.H.O. and Critics Look to Next Steps (Published 2021)

A scientific mission to China proposed further study for a number of topics. Critics and the director of the W.H.O. have weighed in as well.

www.nytimes.com

Jamie Metzl, an author, senior fellow of the Atlantic Council, an international policy think tank and signer of the scientists’ letter, said the renewed calls for a more thorough investigation reflected the need for greater monitoring of and restrictions on what viruses can be studied in labs around the world.

“This is not about ganging up on China,” Mr. Metzl said.

Mr. Metzl’s group was among those disappointed by the report issued last week, as it dismissed out of hand the possibility of a leak from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, calling it extremely unlikely.


The head of the W.H.O., Dr. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, said later that the mission’s consideration of a possible lab leak was not “extensive enough.”
He continued, “Although the team has concluded that a laboratory leak is the least likely hypothesis, this requires further investigation, potentially with additional missions involving specialist experts, which I am ready to deploy.”

WHO largely took China at their word. The zoonotic origin pointing to farms comes from no hard evidence. WHO came to this conclusion because china shutdown these wildlife farms.

We have a bunch of people in America that have a vested interest in this not being a lab leak. It's hard to take the WHO investigation seriously when conflicts of interest abound. Ecohealth alliance is the organization that gave the money to the Wuhan lab. The president of the organization is Dr. Peter Daszak. Who was the only American member of the WHO team investigating the origins of coronavirus? Dr. Peter Daszak. Do you think Peter wants this origins of covid to be a lab leak he directly funded?

If it's not a lab leak it should be possible to find a sample somewhere in China of the virus as it circulated for months before it became more virulent. That's not me making that up. This is the theory that Fauci thinks is the most likely. Am I supposed to believe this thing circulated for months, and no one had any idea? Also, couple that with the outbreak happening in the same city as the only BSL-4 lab. What are the chances of that?

 

[superchuck500]

Oh please nominate DeSantis. Please. That neckless ghoul doesn’t have the con man narcissism and alleged billions that Trump did. Nominating anyone cut from the same political cloth as Trump- other than Trump himself- will totally flame on the national stage. Like completely and totally.

He’s also not particularly intelligent. Trump, who has his limitations, is substantially more intelligent that DeSantis.

 

[DaveXA]

He’s also not particularly intelligent. Trump, who has his limitations, is substantially more intelligent that DeSantis.

Haha, him running would be comical. If he gets elected, I'm moving to Korea with my wife, no lie.

 

[zztop]

Can you point out what was inaccurate about the article I posted?

No because quite frankly I don't give a shirt about your sources, and I'm not going to read some article from some right wing website.

 

[superchuck500]

Then you have virologist on the other side of this:

With Virus Origins Still Obscure, W.H.O. and Critics Look to Next Steps (Published 2021)

A scientific mission to China proposed further study for a number of topics. Critics and the director of the W.H.O. have weighed in as well.

www.nytimes.com

WHO largely took China at their word. The zoonotic origin pointing to farms comes from no hard evidence. WHO came to this conclusion because china shutdown these wildlife farms.

We have a bunch of people in America that have a vested interest in this not being a lab leak. It's hard to take the WHO investigation seriously when conflicts of interest abound. Ecohealth alliance is the organization that gave the money to the Wuhan lab. The president of the organization is Dr. Peter Daszak. Who was the only American member of the WHO team investigating the origins of coronavirus? Dr. Peter Daszak. Do you think Peter wants this origins of covid to be a lab leak he directly funded?

If it's not a lab leak it should be possible to find a sample somewhere in China of the virus as it circulated for months before it became more virulent. That's not me making that up. This is the theory that Fauci thinks is the most likely. Am I supposed to believe this thing circulated for months, and no one had any idea? Also, couple that with the outbreak happening in the same city as the only BSL-4 lab. What are the chances of that?

I disagree with the characterization that the lab origin possibility was "dismissed out of hand" - the WHO report explains why they concluded it was "extremely unlikely" (which, by the way, isn't the same as being dismissed). The evidence on which that determination was made included genome evidence that pointed to the fact that SARS-CoV-2 matched no known virus under human control nor could it be cultured from known viral samples. It included other evidence (serological for example) as well. I don't see how this process can be characterized as dismissed out of hand, or even dismissed at all.

Of course these conclusions would have to change if there was evidence that the lab's inventory included viruses that were otherwise completely unknown to mankind. Sure there's all kinds of reasons to make conjecture about conspiracies, even ones that include Americans. There's a list of skeptical, cynical, or even fantastical questions one can ask, as you do, to suggest a different result. I say go for it, people should continue to investigate this.

But until there's some better evidence, I don't think people should characterize it as likely or having "a decent chance of being true." What does that even mean? How can you assess probability of a result that has no real evidence at this point? Sure, there's reasons why it would make sense if it were true. There are reasons why some involved would seek to suppress evidence that supports that result. But those two things don't give it objective probability of being true.

I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just saying that the best analysis we have so far is from the viral genome and serological evidence. Yes, more information would be great. I suspect people will continue to dig on this and perhaps one day some persuasive (real) evidence will be presented. And not in some YouTube clip.

 

[MT15]

There is an interesting question about what to do with Michigan. Whitmer is in a bad spot, the lunatics in her statehouse have taken away her ability to use emergency powers to set mask mandates and limit social gatherings and her state is experiencing a surge. She is begging for more vaccines than her allotment, but the administration is basically saying they cannot give her more right now because that would entail taking vaccines away from other states.

It‘s hard to justify taking away vaccine doses from other states, but at the same time Michigan could cause a surge to spread to other states. There’s no good answer.

The real question to me is why can’t people work together towards getting folks to wear masks? That would help so much here.