All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (4 Viewers)

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Maxp

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I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?
 

J-DONK

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Navarro was being hyperbolic. There's no two ways about it. And I completely disagree about Fauci. He's one of the more pragmatic and reasonable experts out there.

And what exactly was the mask debacle? We all know the efficacy of masks vs Covid has been debated at length for months. It's clear they provide additional protection, but on their own, they've never been idiot proof. We still needed to social distance, and limit crowds for good reasons.
Fauci told everyone not to wear mask in the very beginning of the outbreak only to backtrack later. Did he actually change his mind? No, he lied originally because he was worried first responders would experience a shortage.

As for the origins of the virus. That was never Fauci's wheelhouse. He only has as much info as anyone else. As far as I know, he hasn't been to China and studied the origins of the virus.

And for Navarro to call him the virus is just stupid and absurd. Which, I guess coming from him isn't all that surprising.
Fauci just did a CNN interview were he continues to push the zoonotic origin theory, and pushed back on the lab leak theory. He is trying to pass this off as the only theory.
 

DaveXA

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Fauci told everyone not to wear mask in the very beginning of the outbreak only to backtrack later. Did he actually change his mind? No, he lied originally because he was worried first responders would experience a shortage.



Fauci just did a CNN interview were he continues to push the zoonotic origin theory, and pushed back on the lab leak theory. He is trying to pass this off as the only theory.
Yeah, well, most of us knew a mask shortage was inevitable. We were caught flat footed and the Administration was in a bind so they had to do it that way for obvious reasons. It wasn't the correct science, but the intention was to protect first responders first until production was ramped up enough. I don't think it was up to Fauci at that point anyway. So I understand the position that was taken at the time. Fauci himself knew the masks worked when they were saying not to wear masks.

He may be, but I happen to think he's right. I'm pretty skeptical that the virus came from the lab. There's a lot of articles pro and con on that idea but I'm not convinced.
 

J-DONK

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He may be, but I happen to think he's right. I'm pretty skeptical that the virus came from the lab. There's a lot of articles pro and con on that idea but I'm not convinced.
You don't have to convinced, it simply needs to investigated thoroughly. That isn't happening. At the end of the day, the facts and evidence should win the day.

Here is a open letter with probably the best argument to investigate the lab leak theory laid out:


Also, NPR article from the WHO Director-General now saying this needs to be investigated thoroughly.



P.S. I wonder how many people in this country would believe the CDC if the most infectious coronavirus ever supposedly originated miles from the CDC. Then we learn researchers at the CDC were sick with similar symptoms prior to the outbreak.
 

DaveXA

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You don't have to convinced, it simply needs to investigated thoroughly. That isn't happening. At the end of the day, the facts and evidence should win the day.

Here is a open letter with probably the best argument to investigate the lab leak theory laid out:


Also, NPR article from the WHO Director-General now saying this needs to be investigated thoroughly.



P.S. I wonder how many people in this country would believe the CDC if the most infectious coronavirus ever supposedly originated miles from the CDC. Then we learn researchers at the CDC were sick with similar symptoms prior to the outbreak.
Oh no doubt. But with it being in China, I don't think we'll ever get to the bottom of this.
 

wardorican

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I'm not usually into "sue everything" culture, but there are times where I think it isn't used enough. This has to be defamation, right?

Ad a public figure the burden is higher. Not sure if you need to prove malice.
 

wardorican

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I'm going to say something controversial for this board. He is being to simplistic but not wrong.

I haven't been a fan of Fauci since the mask debacle. He proved to me he would lie through his teeth, and put American lives at risk. Fauci was a proponent of gain of function research. He also states it wasn't a lab virus. It was an animal transmission, and then covid spent months circulating in China undetected. China has not produced proto-coronavirus samples when the virus should have been circulating in human populations for months. China has a lot of incentive to find this if it's true. It would kill the lab leak theory, and absolve them of some fault.

We also haven't found an animal reservoir that this virus originated from. In fact, the WHO said they thought this thing came from animal farms because china had them all shutdown. That little bit of circumstantial evidence is all they are going on.


This is a WAPO article talking about China's coverup:


P.S. I want to make it clear. I'm not saying it was a lab leak. We have no idea still on the origins of the virus. These people saying the lab leak theory is a conspiracy theory, and has been dismissed are wrong. I find it weird how hard the zoonotic origin theory has been pushed from the very beginning. I think some of this is political driven with the increase in Asian violence, and some CYA on the part of guys like Fauci.
I think at the time what he said was fair.

With no mask infrastructure, asking 330M people to wear masks wasnt practical. However, he said if you are sick or caring for someone sick, wear a mask or do a better job covering coughs and washing hands.

At the time, long term breathing, i.e. psuedo airborne spread wasn't well known. And he was trying to protect the medical supply.

My lab uses nitrile gloves similar to what hospitals and other medical groups use. We usually have enough supply, but in 2020 we had real issues getting gloves.
 

DaveXA

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I think at the time what he said was fair.

With no mask infrastructure, asking 330M people to wear masks wasnt practical. However, he said if you are sick or caring for someone sick, wear a mask or do a better job covering coughs and washing hands.

At the time, long term breathing, i.e. psuedo airborne spread wasn't well known. And he was trying to protect the medical supply.

My lab uses nitrile gloves similar to what hospitals and other medical groups use. We usually have enough supply, but in 2020 we had real issues getting gloves.
And remember some people were already starting to hoard supplies at that point, so it clearly exacerbated the critical supply problem first responders had to getting what they needed to do their jobs.
 

GrandAdmiral

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I think at the time what he said was fair.

With no mask infrastructure, asking 330M people to wear masks wasnt practical. However, he said if you are sick or caring for someone sick, wear a mask or do a better job covering coughs and washing hands.

At the time, long term breathing, i.e. psuedo airborne spread wasn't well known. And he was trying to protect the medical supply.

My lab uses nitrile gloves similar to what hospitals and other medical groups use. We usually have enough supply, but in 2020 we had real issues getting gloves.
I'm trying to remember where, but I remember him doing an interview where he pretty much admitted he was wrong in the initial assessment on mask-wearing and he chalked it up to not knowing all of the science at the time. It might've been during a committee hearing.
 

Taurus

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I'm trying to remember where, but I remember him doing an interview where he pretty much admitted he was wrong in the initial assessment on mask-wearing and he chalked it up to not knowing all of the science at the time. It might've been during a committee hearing.
You can go back in the original Covid thread and find where the definitive discovery that C19 is airborne was big news.
Prior to that, while it made intuitive sense that masks would help, there wasn't enough scientific backing to make an official public statement to that effect.
 

J-DONK

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I'm trying to remember where, but I remember him doing an interview where he pretty much admitted he was wrong in the initial assessment on mask-wearing and he chalked it up to not knowing all of the science at the time. It might've been during a committee hearing.
It wasn't science, they admitted it to being worried about supply.


During a July interview with the Washington Post, Fauci said, "Back then, the critical issue was to save the masks for the people who really needed them because it was felt that there was a shortage of masks."
 

DaveXA

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SFIDC3

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And I'm ok with that.
Me too. I think most of Fauci hate is because he has (with few exceptions) been telling folks the honest truth and that's not what some people want to hear. He is not perfect but I think he has been an important player in this pandemic in a good way....
 

wardorican

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It wasn't science, they admitted it to being worried about supply.

I don't think you can say it wasn't science based. First off, supply chain issues is a science issue, since the clear transmission risk is with health care providers. We even had posters give people crap for using masks. btw, your link does get into all of this, but let me spell it out.

Here's his full original quote.

" In the clip, Dr Fauci says “There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.” "

Note, he's talking about "perfect protection" vs 'better protection'.

Then, later, the update was...

" As Fauci told the Washington Post here , at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, masks were not recommended for the general public, as authorities were trying to prevent a mask shortage for health workers and the extent of asymptomatic spread was unknown. "

the extent of Asymptomatic spread was unknown. Seems to be science based risk assessment.

This is the more detailed quote...

" At the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, Fauci originally discouraged mask-wearing by the public because he was concerned about PPE availability for health-care workers. “We didn’t realize the extent of asymptotic spread…what happened as the weeks and months came by, two things became clear: one, that there wasn’t a shortage of masks, we had plenty of masks and coverings that you could put on that’s plain cloth…so that took care of that problem. Secondly, we fully realized that there are a lot of people who are asymptomatic who are spreading infection. So it became clear that we absolutely should be wearing masks consistently.” "

We had discussions about how masks weren't that effective for a healthy person avoiding the disease, it was more effective and limiting a sick or seemingly healthy covid carrier from spreading it. It took a while for more definitive data.

Now, many folks did look at Asians, who have done this since the Swine and Avian flu epidemics a decade ago, as showing reasonable evidence of mask usage working.
 

Optimus Prime

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Opinion piece on the Fauci bashing

The Einstein line made me laugh

=========================

MAGA political philosophy is not systematic, but it is comprehensive. Right-wing populism offers a distorted lens to view nearly all of life.
Through this warped lens, progress toward equal rights is actually the oppression of White people.

Free and fair elections, when lost, are actually conspiratorial plots by the ruthless left. But perhaps the most remarkable distortion concerns the MAGA view of covid-19........

Yet slamming Fauci was a surefire applause line at the Conservative Political Action Conference in February. Former Trump administration officials continue to target him.

Republican members of Congress vie with one another to put Fauci in his place.
For Trump officials, including Donald Trump himself, this makes perfect sense.

If Fauci has been right about covid, then playing down the disease, mocking masks, modeling superspreader events, denying death tolls, encouraging anti-mandate militias and recommending quack cures were not particularly helpful. If Fauci has been right, they presided over a deadly debacle......

Congressional Republicans who criticize Fauci to prove their populist manhood are even more pathetic. Their self-abasement is voluntary.

Watching Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) debate science with Fauci during committee hearings is like watching Albert Einstein being disputed by his dry cleaner.

Fauci is often reduced to making obvious points in a patient voice. Fauci deserves his Presidential Medal of Freedom just for his heroic forbearance.........

 

J-DONK

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I don't think you can say it wasn't science based. First off, supply chain issues is a science issue, since the clear transmission risk is with health care providers. We even had posters give people crap for using masks. btw, your link does get into all of this, but let me spell it out.

Here's his full original quote.

" In the clip, Dr Fauci says “There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.” "

Note, he's talking about "perfect protection" vs 'better protection'.

Then, later, the update was...

" As Fauci told the Washington Post here , at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, masks were not recommended for the general public, as authorities were trying to prevent a mask shortage for health workers and the extent of asymptomatic spread was unknown. "

the extent of Asymptomatic spread was unknown. Seems to be science based risk assessment.

This is the more detailed quote...

" At the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, Fauci originally discouraged mask-wearing by the public because he was concerned about PPE availability for health-care workers. “We didn’t realize the extent of asymptotic spread…what happened as the weeks and months came by, two things became clear: one, that there wasn’t a shortage of masks, we had plenty of masks and coverings that you could put on that’s plain cloth…so that took care of that problem. Secondly, we fully realized that there are a lot of people who are asymptomatic who are spreading infection. So it became clear that we absolutely should be wearing masks consistently.” "

We had discussions about how masks weren't that effective for a healthy person avoiding the disease, it was more effective and limiting a sick or seemingly healthy covid carrier from spreading it. It took a while for more definitive data.

Now, many folks did look at Asians, who have done this since the Swine and Avian flu epidemics a decade ago, as showing reasonable evidence of mask usage working.
From the article:

two things became clear: one, that there wasn’t a shortage of masks, we had plenty of masks and coverings that you could put on that’s plain cloth…so that took care of that problem. Secondly, we fully realized that there are a lot of people who are asymptomatic who are spreading infection. So it became clear that we absolutely should be wearing masks consistently.”
Sure they didn't know how bad asymptomatic spread was, they also realized they had plenty of supply. It's to bad this is politized, because it's insane you guys are essentially arguing "The Noble Lie".

He made a huge misstep, and knowingly put lives at risk. I'll pass on the idol worship.

He also must shoulder some blame for the anti-mask movement. After all, his words have been weaponized more then once.
 

Taurus

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From the article:



Sure they didn't know how bad asymptomatic spread was, they also realized they had plenty of supply. It's to bad this is politized, because it's insane you guys are essentially arguing "The Noble Lie".

He made a huge misstep, and knowingly put lives at risk. I'll pass on the idol worship.

He also must shoulder some blame for the anti-mask movement. After all, his words have been weaponized more then once.
as the weeks and months came by,
Also from the article. The words immediately preceding your quote.
 

insidejob

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Now, many folks did look at Asians, who have done this since the Swine and Avian flu epidemics a decade ago, as showing reasonable evidence of mask usage working.
Hell, lots of Asian countries wear masks during regular flu season to contain the spread of the flu. So when this happened, they were all ready.
 

DaveXA

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From the article:



Sure they didn't know how bad asymptomatic spread was, they also realized they had plenty of supply. It's to bad this is politized, because it's insane you guys are essentially arguing "The Noble Lie".

He made a huge misstep, and knowingly put lives at risk. I'll pass on the idol worship.

He also must shoulder some blame for the anti-mask movement. After all, his words have been weaponized more then once.
Calling an appreciation of what Fauci has done and is doing "idol worship" is a bit much.

Ah no, he doesn't and shouldn't shoulder that. Anti-maskers are gonna weaponize whatever is handy for them. If it wasn't Fauci, it's going to be someone else.
 

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