All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (4 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[Farb]

Which means that, as it applies to a national health crisis, we live in a country that is fundamentally broken. Do you agree?

It means we live in a federal republic. So no, I would not call that fundamentally broken. I would call that functioning correctly.

 

[The moose]

It's hard to compare the US to those other countries when we have 50 different states that set their own policies. Don't you think that's a significant difference between the US and other countries?

Bingo!


We have an answer. Buy not taking this seriously some non effected states did not follow. By not giving this the full court press defense it definitely needed we got to where we are.

Realistically if taken seriously and actually followed the plan we as a nation would be in a much better place.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

It means we live in a federal republic. So no, I would not call that fundamentally broken. I would call that functioning correctly.

Fair point. I will clarify.

Allowing the states to set their own policies while providing zero leadership and guidance is a failure. A national health emergency is just that- national. A pandemic isn't limited by borders, so why should the policies put in place to prevent it be limited by borders?

 

[FullMonte]

Bingo!


We have an answer. Buy not taking this seriously some non effected states did not follow. By not giving this the full court press defense it definitely needed we got to where we are.

Realistically if taken seriously and actually followed the plan we as a nation would be in a much better place.

While that's true, you say "actually followed the plan," what is that plan? The one that Trump had? The one that the medical experts had? While there are 50 states that each set their own policies, the lack of a cohesive message and plan from the federal government made it basically impossible to follow the plan. When you add in the states that went out and found PPE and ordered it, only to have the federal government seize those shipments, the federal government bears more responsibility.

 

[MT15]

Nobody is blaming one person for all the deaths, but the fundamental reality here is that the federal government failed to enact a cohesive plan for testing, for contract tracing, for how to socially distance, for PPE, for just about anything really.

There wasn’t a coordinated federal effort to distribute PPE when it was short, and thousands of front line medical workers died. It was a chaotic, patchwork effort.

There wasn’t clear leadership on the pandemic task force. Pence was said to be in charge, yet Kushner ran his own shadow task force and Trump big footed his way into all the press conferences, often contradicting what the task force had already said. It was a horrible example of executive management.

 

[SaintForLife]

The Trump response to this pandemic simply cannot be defended. We stand alone among developed nations in our failure to mitigate spread and control this virus. A lot of it has to do with the man himself. A man who thinks he knows everything better than the experts. A man who ignores science, but buys into crackpot cures. The worst possible person to be in charge of our response.

This doesn’t change the fact that Obama was lucky during H1N1, but we also shouldn’t ignore the response to the Ebola outbreak and that the Obama administration had learned the hard lessons and that the US response was at least part of the reason we didn’t have a global pandemic then that would have been far more deadly than what we are seeing now.

This administration had protocols, they had a playbook, they had the benefit of previous lessons learned. They ignored all of it. Their inaction has resulted in many unnecessary deaths. This is their legacy, and it’s not a good one.

I haven't defended Trump's response to Covid. What I have talked about is many Democrats saying he's responsible for all of the deaths. I've seen some people here blame him for all the deaths.

As I posted earlier today, epidemiologist Michael Osterholm said a virus cannot be stopped from spreading:

It’s now clear that the epidemic was never going to be contained. At most, its spread was slowed by the lockdown imposed in China and other countries’ efforts to identify infected people and anyone they might have been in contact with.

...Trying to stop influenza-like transmission is a bit like trying to stop the wind.

You can't compare the response of Ebola to Covid or H1N1. Ebola isn't transmitted in the air and Ebola is not easily transmittable. Ebola wasn't a global pandemic like Covid. It was largely isolated to the region where it emerged.

The Obama administration had mostly the same tools that the Trump administration had and both administrations failed to control the spread of both viruses.

H1N1 had 60 million cases in the US. If H1N1 would have been as deadly as Covid, there would have been almost 2 million deaths.

 

[The moose]

While that's true, you say "actually followed the plan," what is that plan? The one that Trump had? The one that the medical experts had? While there are 50 states that each set their own policies, the lack of a cohesive message and plan from the federal government made it basically impossible to follow the plan. When you add in the states that went out and found PPE and ordered it, only to have the federal government seize those shipments, the federal government bears more responsibility.

No the plan I was talking about was not the steal everyone's PPE while filling your buddies pockets.

The pandemic play book is the plan I was talking about.

The fear of the economy stopped the real actions needed to truly contain the virus.

I live in New Orleans. You know what I am fighting a parking ticket I got during the height of the problem here. I got it dropping off food to an elderly friend of the family.

Nowhere in America truly shut down. That is because of the lack of leadership by this administration.

The problem was not near as big a problem for the rest of the developed world.

The only real difference is the leaders lead.

 

[JimEverett]

Well, the EU is 27 different countries with their own policies, and in the UK health is a devolved matter so England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own policies, so, no.

The various EU countries shut down their borders, right? Or many did.
When Trump talked about closing certain state borders he was rightly heavily criticized for suggesting something so clearly illegal. That is a huge difference

 

[MT15]

I haven't defended Trump's response to Covid. What I have talked about is many Democrats saying he's responsible for all of the deaths. I've seen some people here blame him for all the deaths.

As I posted earlier today, epidemiologist Michael Osterholm said a virus cannot be stopped from spreading:

It’s now clear that the epidemic was never going to be contained. At most, its spread was slowed by the lockdown imposed in China and other countries’ efforts to identify infected people and anyone they might have been in contact with.

...Trying to stop influenza-like transmission is a bit like trying to stop the wind.

You can't compare the response of Ebola to Covid or H1N1. Ebola isn't transmitted in the air and Ebola is not easily transmittable. Ebola wasn't a global pandemic like Covid. It was largely isolated to the region where it emerged.

The Obama administration had mostly the same tools that the Trump administration had and both administrations failed to control the spread of both viruses.

H1N1 had 60 million cases in the US. If H1N1 would have been as deadly as Covid, there would have been almost 2 million deaths.

Yes, Ebola was confined, due to some strong efforts by the medical community under Obama, and the rest of the world. It’s not airborne but it is highly transmissible nevertheless.

You say you aren’t defending the Trump administration’s response, but it reads like that is exactly what you are doing. It’s a bit confusing.

No matter what Obama did, this administration’s response is deserving of criticism. Agree, or no?

Then we can have a conversation without muddying the waters.

 

[MT15]

The various EU countries shut down their borders, right? Or many did.
When Trump talked about closing certain state borders he was rightly heavily criticized for suggesting something so clearly illegal. That is a huge difference

I didn’t recall Trump ever proposing to limit travel within the US, and this article is the first time I can find it mentioned. The article makes it seem like he didn’t actually propose it, but was reacting to a reporter’s question. Do you remember him making this proposal? I bolded the part in question.

“President Donald Trump said Thursday it's a "possibility" that the administration could impose travel restrictions within the U.S. to limit exposure to the coronavirus if certain areas get "too hot."

"We haven't discussed that yet," Trump said when asked about the option at a meeting with Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar. "Is it a possibility? Yes. If somebody gets a little bit out of control, if an area gets too hot.”

Trump: Restricting travel in U.S. a 'possibility' if coronavirus pandemic gets 'too hot'

Trump also defended his restrictions on travel from Europe, which excludes the U.K. and Ireland.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[JimEverett]

I didn’t recall Trump ever proposing to limit travel within the US, and this article is the first time I can find it mentioned. The article makes it seem like he didn’t actually propose it, but was reacting to a reporter’s question. Do you remember him making this proposal? I bolded the part in question.

“President Donald Trump said Thursday it's a "possibility" that the administration could impose travel restrictions within the U.S. to limit exposure to the coronavirus if certain areas get "too hot."

"We haven't discussed that yet," Trump said when asked about the option at a meeting with Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar. "Is it a possibility? Yes. If somebody gets a little bit out of control, if an area gets too hot.”

Trump: Restricting travel in U.S. a 'possibility' if coronavirus pandemic gets 'too hot'

Trump also defended his restrictions on travel from Europe, which excludes the U.K. and Ireland.

www.nbcnews.com

That is what I am talking about. "Suggesting" it is probably more accurate than "proposing" because there was nothing formal about it - but I think the point is still the same. A President cannot do that, and I will take it a step further and say he should not be able to do that.

 

[SaintForLife]

Yes, Ebola was confined, due to some strong efforts by the medical community under Obama, and the rest of the world. It’s not airborne but it is highly transmissible nevertheless.

You say you aren’t defending the Trump administration’s response, but it reads like that is exactly what you are doing. It’s a bit confusing.

No matter what Obama did, this administration’s response is deserving of criticism. Agree, or no?

Then we can have a conversation without muddying the waters.

Ebola isn't highly transmissible:

Ebola: Very severe, but hard to contract
Ebola first emerged in 1976, and the world has weathered outbreaks at various points since then, including one in West Africa from 2014 to 2016. It’s a severe disease that kills, on average, 50 percent of people who become infected, according to the World Health Organization. Yet just over 11,000 people died during the 2014-2016 outbreak, which was largely isolated to the region where it emerged.

Similar to MERS and SARS, Ebola is not easily transmittable. Infected people don’t spread the virus until they start showing symptoms, and even then the virus is hard to catch

Why Did The World Shut Down For COVID-19 But Not Ebola, SARS Or Swine Flu?

We’re currently battling a global pandemic unlike any we’ve seen in over a century. But it’s also not the first modern virus we’ve faced.

fivethirtyeight-com.cdn.ampproject.org

I do think Trump deserves to be criticized over Covid and I've said so here before. What I've taken issue with is the Democrats and people here who have said he's responsible for all or most of the deaths. Here are the previous posts when I criticized Trump on Covid:

All things political. Coronavirus Edition.

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is...

madaboutpolitics.com

All things political. Coronavirus Edition.

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is...

madaboutpolitics.com

All things political. Coronavirus Edition.

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is...

madaboutpolitics.com

All things political. Coronavirus Edition.

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is...

madaboutpolitics.com

 

[Nebaghead]

Trump, without evidence, accuses FDA of delaying coronavirus vaccine trials and pressures agency chief
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/22/politics/trump-fda-coronavirus-vaccine/index.html

Way to lead.

 

[Taurus]

Ebola isn't highly transmissible:

Ebola: Very severe, but hard to contract
Ebola first emerged in 1976, and the world has weathered outbreaks at various points since then, including one in West Africa from 2014 to 2016. It’s a severe disease that kills, on average, 50 percent of people who become infected, according to the World Health Organization. Yet just over 11,000 people died during the 2014-2016 outbreak, which was largely isolated to the region where it emerged.

Similar to MERS and SARS, Ebola is not easily transmittable. Infected people don’t spread the virus until they start showing symptoms, and even then the virus is hard to catch

Why Did The World Shut Down For COVID-19 But Not Ebola, SARS Or Swine Flu?

We’re currently battling a global pandemic unlike any we’ve seen in over a century. But it’s also not the first modern virus we’ve faced.

fivethirtyeight-com.cdn.ampproject.org

I do think Trump deserves to be criticized over Covid and I've said so here before. What I've taken issue with is the Democrats and people here who have said he's responsible for all or most of the deaths. Here are the previous posts when I criticized Trump on Covid:

All things political. Coronavirus Edition.

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is...

madaboutpolitics.com

All things political. Coronavirus Edition.

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is...

madaboutpolitics.com

All things political. Coronavirus Edition.

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is...

madaboutpolitics.com

All things political. Coronavirus Edition.

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is...

madaboutpolitics.com

ALL the deaths? No. A hundred thousand or more? Yes.

He was informed in January and did *nothing*.
We *still* don't have adequate testing. We *still* don't have clear, unequivocal leadership on masks.
People are dying by the thousands and this pitiful yahoo's main concern is payroll taxes.

 

[brandon]

I haven't defended Trump's response to Covid. What I have talked about is many Democrats saying he's responsible for all of the deaths. I've seen some people here blame him for all the deaths.

As I posted earlier today, epidemiologist Michael Osterholm said a virus cannot be stopped from spreading:

It’s now clear that the epidemic was never going to be contained. At most, its spread was slowed by the lockdown imposed in China and other countries’ efforts to identify infected people and anyone they might have been in contact with.

...Trying to stop influenza-like transmission is a bit like trying to stop the wind.

You can't compare the response of Ebola to Covid or H1N1. Ebola isn't transmitted in the air and Ebola is not easily transmittable. Ebola wasn't a global pandemic like Covid. It was largely isolated to the region where it emerged.

The Obama administration had mostly the same tools that the Trump administration had and both administrations failed to control the spread of both viruses.

H1N1 had 60 million cases in the US. If H1N1 would have been as deadly as Covid, there would have been almost 2 million deaths.

Since you didn’t link to your citation, I found it online. It’s from an article dated February 24th, 2020.

Opinion | Is It a Pandemic Yet? (Published 2020)

It’s now clear that the coronavirus epidemic was never going to be contained. What’s next?

www.google.com

How about reading what Michael Olsterholm said on August 7th?

Opinion | Here’s How to Crush the Virus Until Vaccines Arrive (Published 2020)

To save lives, and save the economy, we need another lockdown.

www.google.com

Here’s a few tidbits:

Why did the United States’ Covid-19 containment response fail, particularly compared with the successful results of so many nations in Asia, Europe and even our neighbor Canada?

Simply, we gave up on our lockdown efforts to control virus transmission well before the virus was under control. Many other countries didn’t let up until the number of cases was greatly reduced, even in places that had extensive outbreaks in March and April.

While many countries are now experiencing modest flare-ups of the virus, their case loads are in the hundreds or low thousands of infections per day, not tens of thousands, and small enough that public health officials can largely control the spread.

In contrast, the United States reopened too quickly and is now experiencing around 50,000 or more new cases per day.

To successfully drive down our case rate to less than one per 100,000 people per day, we should mandate sheltering in place for everyone but the truly essential workers. By that, we mean people must stay at home and leave only for essential reasons: food shopping and visits to doctors and pharmacies while wearing masks and washing hands frequently.

If we aren’t willing to take this action, millions more cases with many more deaths are likely before a vaccine might be available. In addition, the economic recovery will be much slower, with far more business failures and high unemployment for the next year or two. The path of the virus will determine the path of the economy. There won’t be a robust economic recovery until we get control of the virus.

It would seem to be that the only chance we’ve got is government response.
We’re not getting that, we never did, and we never will.

Again, no one is putting every individual death on Trump. But other countries showed with good governmental leadership, this could be contained. Thus, the overall scope of death over and beyond that which is being experienced in other countries absolutely is on him.

 

[MT15]

SFL, I think we don’t have significant disagreements about Ebola. It’s transmitted by blood and body fluids, and because of the horrible nature of the disease, those fluids are shed in abundance by people who have the bad luck to catch the disease. Therefore the extreme isolation measures that had to be taken to contain the disease. I considered it to be highly contagious because those types of measures are needed. The main danger is to anyone caring for a sick person. Without extreme measures, they are pretty much certain to catch the disease due to exposure to the bodily fluids. So that is why I characterized it the way I did. It’s a dangerous disease, to this day, and I still maintain the medical experts did a great job containing it.

H1N1 started right here in our own “back yard”. It makes sense that there were more cases here of it than a virus that started in China.

I think that the fatality rate for Covid is not thought to end up at 3%, which is what you are using and is the current rate per confirmed case in the US, I think. If we have undercounted cases as much as some people think, that will be at least cut in half by the time the pandemic is over. I have read some opinions that it may end up as low as 1%. But this is just an aside, and not really relevant at this time, as the numbers will change as time goes on. It’s just hard to compare the stats from H1N1 to the stats from Covid because we don’t really know what the final numbers will be for Covid.

 

[SaintForLife]

Since you didn’t link to your citation, I found it online. It’s from an article dated February 24th, 2020.

Opinion | Is It a Pandemic Yet? (Published 2020)

It’s now clear that the coronavirus epidemic was never going to be contained. What’s next?

www.google.com

How about reading what Michael Olsterholm said on August 7th?

Opinion | Here’s How to Crush the Virus Until Vaccines Arrive (Published 2020)

To save lives, and save the economy, we need another lockdown.

www.google.com

Here’s a few tidbits:




It would seem to be that the only chance we’ve got is government response.
We’re not getting that, we never did, and we never will.

Again, no one is putting every individual death on Trump. But other countries showed with good governmental leadership, this could be contained. Thus, the overall scope of death over and beyond that which is being experienced in other countries absolutely is on him.

Since you didn't bother to look at my post in this thread #4640 I'll let me you know that I linked to both of those articles. I specifically wanted his articles from back when Covid was in the beginning stages because I remember him saying:

Political leaders and talking heads should stop proffering the widespread-testing option; it simply won't be available.

It was mentioned earlier that the federal government can't make the states follow the federal guidelines. We are a federal republic.

The Trump administration did put out federal guidelines for safely reopening.

Combating COVID-19 | The White House

The Biden-Harris plan to beat COVID-19

www.whitehouse.gov

Please explain how the federal government was supposed to force states to follow the guidelines

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Makes me wonder who wrote the plans for the other surge states, Louisiana included...