All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (2 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[efil4]

Do you think the CDC and any other relevant agencies just sat there and didn't excute their normal protocols while Trump was out there saying stupid shirt?

How much does anyone think that extra testing at the beginning would have stopped Covid? It would have definitely helped, but testing was not going to stop the virus. The CDC telling the public not to wear masks initially only to say 3 months later that they only said that because they were afraid hospitals would run out of masks didn't help earn public trust.

This is why it is hard to have conversations with you.

Your lack of honesty with yourself (I'd never blame Democrats) is the non starter. You guys blame everyone else for everything yet refuse to place blame at the feet of Rs responsible. It's a current trend in this country of deflecting responsibility. I see it daily. Never my fault. Gotta be someone else.

You cite an epidemiologist about testing, because you believe more testing isn't the answer, yet the article you cite says nothing about LESS testing.

The CDC follows POTUS. The same POTUS who told this entire country that this virus is nothing more than a flu and it will disappear in April.

On Jan 17 2020 a handful of yahoos on a message board started talking about Covid 19. You think we knew more than our govt???

Cmon man. The lack of response and the subsequent issues from that are a direct result of the lack of leadership from POTUS and administration. That is reality. You may not like it, which is why you continue to deflect the responsibility, but it's the glaring truth.

Once you accept that, only then can we have a fruitful discussion.

Until then, it's just an exercise in futility. I'd love to see you accept that this pandemic could have been less severe had our POTUS been more engaged. But you feel if you agree, it lessens your position as a Trump supporter. That's the issue.

 

[Farb]

https://stormlakeradio.com/news/202...s-stage-protest-against-coronavirus-shutdowns

Not all heroes wear caps, sometimes, just silly shoes.

 

[RobF]

(From another thread, response is more appropriate here)

How culpable is Cuomo for all of the nursing home deaths?

As I understand it, and similar to some other states and nations facing pressures on hospital space (e.g. the UK - https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/), his state administration effectively ordered nursing homes to take COVID-19 patients from hospitals, and restricted tests for new or returning patients. Personally, I regard that as a negligent action for which those responsible are culpable.

 

[Farb]

(From another thread, response is more appropriate here)

As I understand it, and similar to some other states and nations facing pressures on hospital space (e.g. the UK - https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/), his state administration effectively ordered nursing homes to take COVID-19 patients from hospitals, and restricted tests for new or returning patients. Personally, I regard that as a negligent action for which those responsible are culpable.

He also had a big Navy ship that was not used and left after a few weeks but I also agree, Coumo is actually culpable and he never even came close to running out of ventilators and even said as much during his pressers.

 

[Taurus]

He also had a big Navy ship that was not used and left after a few weeks but I also agree, Coumo is actually culpable and he never even came close to running out of ventilators and even said as much during his pressers.

The Navy ships were a nice gesture, but not super useful for a pandemic.
The turnaround time in testing is the main reason.

 

[not2rich]

The Navy ships were a nice gesture, but not super useful for a pandemic.
The turnaround time in testing is the main reason.

The Navy ship was a perfect symbol of the Trump Presidency - sell the sizzle, not the steak. Because he doesn't have the first idea how to cook it.

 

[MT15]

The Trump response to this pandemic simply cannot be defended. We stand alone among developed nations in our failure to mitigate spread and control this virus. A lot of it has to do with the man himself. A man who thinks he knows everything better than the experts. A man who ignores science, but buys into crackpot cures. The worst possible person to be in charge of our response.

This doesn’t change the fact that Obama was lucky during H1N1, but we also shouldn’t ignore the response to the Ebola outbreak and that the Obama administration had learned the hard lessons and that the US response was at least part of the reason we didn’t have a global pandemic then that would have been far more deadly than what we are seeing now.

This administration had protocols, they had a playbook, they had the benefit of previous lessons learned. They ignored all of it. Their inaction has resulted in many unnecessary deaths. This is their legacy, and it’s not a good one.

 

[Farb]

The Navy ship was a perfect symbol of the Trump Presidency - sell the sizzle, not the steak. Because he doesn't have the first idea how to cook it.

Coumo, in between killing his older population seemed really happy about sizzle being in the harbor, until it was not needed because everyone who was going to die, already died in the nursing homes, but yeah. Totally on the Trump.

 

[SaintForLife]

(From another thread, response is more appropriate here)

As I understand it, and similar to some other states and nations facing pressures on hospital space (e.g. the UK - https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/), his state administration effectively ordered nursing homes to take COVID-19 patients from hospitals, and restricted tests for new or returning patients. Personally, I regard that as a negligent action for which those responsible are culpable.

I think it was a horrible decision by Cuomo, but I don't hold him responsible for every nursing home death during a pandemic.

 

[Farb]

I think it was a horrible decision by Cuomo, but I don't hold him responsible for every nursing home death during a pandemic.

I don't think any reasonable person would either, its a new virus that caught the entire world by surprise because China and the WHO actively tried to cover it up and keep in under wraps. There is plenty blame to go around for every politician and medical professional out there but to try and pin it all on one person is just not correct.

 

[SaintForLife]

Life comes at you fast

He did talk about social distancing so it's not like he was said masks or social distancing isn't necessary. Heaven forbid someome say that voting in person can be done safely. It sounds like you think it's karma for him getting Covid because he said voting in public can be done safely.

 

[SaintForLife]

Taking the situation seriously and responding accordingly would have made a huge difference. And this is completely clear. Countries that did so have had lower cases and deaths by orders of magnitude.

I mean, the EU hasn't handled it well, and yet the US has still had around 1.6 times the deaths per capita of the EU, and rising. This isn't even a case of "the response was botched at the start, but it's being handled well now," it's still being botched as I write this. The death rate and case rates right now are multiple times that of the EU.

The UK fared worse than the EU, as Boris Johnson played it down, talking about herd immunity, failed to roll out testing anywhere near fast enough, and tried to avoid the inevitable lockdown, but right now the UK's rate of deaths and cases are an order of magnitude below the USA's.

Johnson is culpable for the UK's failings. But Trump's mishandling is on a whole new level to Johnson's, on both an administrative and personal level. His administration acted slowly and weakly, and he's repeatedly lied about it, undermining public health initiatives on a state and national level. I mean, just a couple of months ago he claimed it was "fading away", right before personally holding a rally in a hotspot. The USA's case rate has more than doubled since then.

That is the forest we're looking at. You're trying to pick out individual trees and suggest that they change the entire nature of the forest. They don't.

And while it is fair to say that handling pandemics is difficult, and it's unreasonable to hold someone to an unrealistically high standard when faced with a difficult situation, it is a very much realistic standard to expect someone to recognise a situation, take it seriously, and respond accordingly. Trump hasn't failed to meet some unrealistic high standard, he's failed, massively and comprehensively, to meet the most basic expectations.

And that is why Trump's mishandling of the pandemic makes him culpable for the deaths of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of Americans.

It's hard to compare the US to those other countries when we have 50 different states that set their own policies. Don't you think that's a significant difference between the US and other countries?

 

[SaintForLife]

I don't think any reasonable person would either, its a new virus that caught the entire world by surprise because China and the WHO actively tried to cover it up and keep in under wraps. There is plenty blame to go around for every politician and medical professional out there but to try and pin it all on one person is just not correct.

It's an election year and the Democrats have been frothing at the mouth to get rid of Trump since the day he got elected so it's not surprising that they will say he's responsible for the 174,000 deaths.

It reminds me of how the media would do the daily counts of the troops that died in Iraq during the Bush administration. They led just about every newscast with it. As soon as Obama was elected those daily updates on the news dissappeared.

 

[SaintForLife]

The expert you cite doesn't say we need less testing, but need to test in a targeted way. I don't necessarily disagree with that. But whether it's "more" testing or "targeted" testing, either is something WE DON'T HAVE.

How do you explain so many other developed countries doing better than us?

We don't have a coordinated plan and never have. Our "plan" has been to ignore it and pretend it will go away. Trump learned his pandemic response from his experience on "The Apprentice." He thinks he can make reality TV into actual reality.

It sounds like he was saying that testing as many people as possible isn't the right way to do it. He said it needs to be more targeted.

the pandemic messaging to date needs to move beyond the ‘Test, test, test!’ mantras. That is the wrong approach.”

This is what Michael Osterholm said back in March:

The second hard truth is that at this stage, any public health response that counts on widespread testing in the United States is doomed to fail. No one planned on the whole world experiencing a health conflagration of this magnitude at once, with the need to test many millions of people at the same time. Political leaders and talking heads should stop proffering the widespread-testing option; it simply won’t be available.

It’s Too Late to Avoid Disaster, but There Are Still Things We Can Do (Published 2020)

Our leaders need to speak some hard truths and then develop a strategy to prevent the worst.

www-nytimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Michael Osterholm in February:

First, let’s get the facts straight about what can and cannot be done.

It’s now clear that the epidemic was never going to be contained. At most, its spread was slowed by the lockdown imposed in China and other countries’ efforts to identify infected people and anyone they might have been in contact with.

...Trying to stop influenza-like transmission is a bit like trying to stop the wind.

...The lockdown imposed by the Chinese government in Hubei, the province worst hit by the disease, substantially reduced the number of new cases for a time. But even that has limited benefits. As China tries to return to work, public transportation resumes and citizens start moving about, there will likely be a major rebound in cases. Unless an entire population shelters in place for many months, infectious agents like influenza or this coronavirus will find people to infect.

In other words, a lockdown is mostly a delaying tactic. By distributing cases over time, it can help manage an outbreak — but only if it takes place against the backdrop of a robust health care system. Yet even the best system is too fragile, and a moderate increase in infectious cases, whether of seasonal flu or Covid-19, can quickly overwhelm resources, in China or the United States.

...In a world ill-prepared for a potentially life-threatening, easily transmitted disease like Covid-19, the most effective way to mitigate the pandemic’s impact is to focus on supporting health care systems that already are overburdened.

Is It a Pandemic Yet? (Published 2020)

It’s now clear that the coronavirus epidemic was never going to be contained. What’s next?

www-nytimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[cuddlemonkey]

It's hard to compare the US to those other countries when we have 50 different states that set their own policies. Don't you think that's a significant difference between the US and other countries?

I think having 50 entities put forth 50 different policies is a recipe for disaster, especially when most- if not all- were done with one eye on the political ramifications.

That is why a strong federal response was necessary. That is why people rightfully point out Trump's abject failure in handling this crisis.

 

[SaintForLife]

I think having 50 entities put forth 50 different policies is a recipe for disaster, especially when most- if not all- were done with one eye on the political ramifications.

That is why a strong federal response was necessary. That is why people rightfully point out Trump's abject failure in handling this crisis.

I don't believe the federal government could force any states to follow the policy the feds recommended.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I don't believe the federal government could force any states to follow the policy the feds recommended.

Which means that, as it applies to a national health crisis, we live in a country that is fundamentally broken. Do you agree?

 

[RobF]

It's hard to compare the US to those other countries when we have 50 different states that set their own policies. Don't you think that's a significant difference between the US and other countries?

Well, the EU is 27 different countries with their own policies, and in the UK health is a devolved matter so England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own policies, so, no.