All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (16 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[SaintForLife]

Don’t take my response so literally, waiting two months to take action in allowing this virus to spread? Yes I would put the outcome on his shoulders.

It's hard to have a reasonable discussion on this subject when you make a statement like that and that's a commom theme in this thread. I think it's perfectly fine to criticize Trump for initially downplaying the virus, his administration's intial response, his lack of a clear & consistent message, the daily press conferences where he rambled, but it's not like any of that stopped the proper agencies from working behind the scenes.

I do think it's despicable to place the blame on Trump for all or most of the deaths due to a global pandemic. If this happened under Obama, I'm sure I would probably criticize some of his actions, but I definitely wouldn't be blaming him for all or most of the deaths.

 

[surada]

It's hard to have a reasonable discussion on this subject when you make a statement like that and that's a commom theme in this thread. I think it's perfectly fine to criticize Trump for initially downplaying the virus, his administration's intial response, his lack of a clear & consistent message, the daily press conferences where he rambled, but it's not like any of that stopped the proper agencies from working behind the scenes.

I do think it is despicable to place the blame on Trump for all or most of the deaths due to a global pandemic. If this happened under Obama, I'm sure I would probably criticize some of his actions, but I definitely wouldn't be blaming him for all or most of the deaths.

There were two American deaths from Ebola during the Obama administration. They were proactive and followed the Pandemic Handbook. They did not dither around blaming one agency after another. They went out to meet the threat in Africa.

 

[SaintForLife]

There were two American deaths from Ebola during the Obama administration. They were proactive and followed the Pandemic Handbook. They did not dither around blaming one agency after another. They went out to meet the threat in Africa.

Ebola was deadly, but it's not even close to Covid in regards to how easily they spread.

Why Did The World Shut Down For COVID-19 But Not Ebola, SARS Or Swine Flu?

We’re currently battling a global pandemic unlike any we’ve seen in over a century. But it’s also not the first modern virus we’ve faced.

fivethirtyeight-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Ebola first emerged in 1976, and the world has weathered outbreaks at various points since then, including one in West Africa from 2014 to 2016. It’s a severe disease that kills, on average, 50 percent of people who become infected, according to the World Health Organization. Yet just over 11,000 people died during the 2014-2016 outbreak, which was largely isolated to the region where it emerged.

Similar to MERS and SARS, Ebola is not easily transmittable. Infected people don’t spread the virus until they start showing symptoms, and even then the virus is hard to catch because it is spread through direct contact with the bodily fluid of an infected person, like blood, sweat, and urine, rather than through the kind of particles produced when someone sneezes or speaks. Unless you’re nursing patients (either at home or in a hospital setting) or tending to their body after they’ve died, it’s unlikely you’d acquire the infection.

Ebola also tends to cause pretty severe and identifiable symptoms, such as fever and fatigue followed by vomiting and diarrhea. Not only can infected people not spread the virus until they’re sick, but once they become sick, they’ll know it.

“If you want to see illnesses which are controllable, they all have transmission very much tied to symptoms, and this includes SARS and Ebola,” said William Hanage, an epidemiologist at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. “If you’re in an Ebola zone, you can be pretty sure whether or not the person you’re talking to is a potentially risky contact.”

This makes it easier to isolate infected individuals and protect health care workers to limit the spread, which is what occurred in the 2014-2016 outbreak. It’s a striking difference from COVID-19, which we know can be spread without any symptoms at all, and even when people get sick, some people might have symptoms so mild that they’re not sure they have COVID-19 in the first place.

 

[surada]

Ebola was deadly, but it's not even close to Covid in regards to how easily they spread.

Why Did The World Shut Down For COVID-19 But Not Ebola, SARS Or Swine Flu?

We’re currently battling a global pandemic unlike any we’ve seen in over a century. But it’s also not the first modern virus we’ve faced.

fivethirtyeight-com.cdn.ampproject.org

In November 2005 Bush said that we had to immediately respond to these disease outbreaks wherever they turned up.. He didn't say to dither and blame others.

"A pandemic is a lot like a forest fire," Bush ...

Transcript of Bush speech on pandemic flu strategy - CNN.com
www.cnn.com › 2005 › HEALTH › conditions › bush.t...
www.cnn.com › 2005 › HEALTH › conditions › bush.t...

1. Cached

Nov 1, 2005 - President Bush, in a speech Tuesday at the National Institutes of Health, said the United States must be prepared to detect bird flu outbreaks ...

 

[Optimus Prime]

Yeah the CEO pay has just gotten out of control. In 65 CEOs made twenty times what the normal American employee did. Now we are at over three hundred times. Median american income in 65 was 6,900 bucks to 31k now that is 4.5 times compared to 280.

That really needs to be pulled back in.

That is the real reason the stock market only effects so few Americans.

I was just talking about this, I think part of the issue us that the average person thinks the average CEO makes 10-15 times what the average worker makes (article from a few years ago)

I didn’t know it was higher than that in 65

 

[Optimus Prime]

Navajo Nation in portions of my state has been hit extremely hard by the disease. I have a friend who owns a distillery who brought thousands of gallons of disinfectant down to the area to help. They are now implementing a 57 hour lockdown.

Navajo Nation spends weekend on strict 57-hour lockdown as virus death toll rises

Even essential businesses must remain closed as the entire tribe enters a strict lockdown for Memorial Day weekend.

www.cbsnews.com

How did they arrive at such an odd number?

What’s the significance of 57 hours?

 

[V Chip]

The state’s current COVID-19 death count includes anyone that’s tested positive for COVID-19, officials said.

The article states that, but the actual quote they use does not.

"We currently do have some deaths that are being reported that are clearly from other causes. We have about 5 deaths less than 5 deaths that we know of that are related to obvious other causes. In this case, they are from gunshot wounds," Hutchison said.

I am looking but can only find one source that implies that the count includes ANYONE (meaning: everyone) that's tested positive and dies from any non-related factor (gunshot, car accident, embarassment, etc.). The one you quoted from doesn't have an actual quote but a summation/paraphrase (https://komonews.com/news/local/sta...elated-deaths-likely-being-undercounted-in-wa).

I did find a quote from an AP story filed by/reported by Martha Bellisle that was close (https://apnews.com/82368881fe0c1a2183467857c3d65803).

“Our current dashboard reflects anybody that has died from covid irrespective of cause of death,” she said.

Interestingly, that same quote is found the same on most websites that report the same exact AP story from Martha Bellisle, but one that is different and one that isn't the AP story that is completely changed:

“Our current dashboard reflects anybody that has died from covid irrespective of cause of death," she said.

“Our current dashboard reflects anybody that has died from covid irrespective of cause of death,” she said.

“Our current dashboard reflects anybody that has died from COVID, irrespective of cause of death,” she said.

“Our current dashboard reflects anyone who died, that tested positive for COVID, irrespective of cause of death,” she said.

“Our (DOH COVID-19) dashboard numbers do include any deaths to a person that has tested positive to COVID-19.”

Most of the articles I found use the first quote: "Our current dashboard reflects anybody that has died from covid irrespective of cause of death." The meaning is changed quite a bit when framed liked the Seattle Times did, or even worse the way that the Freedom Foundation did. It's very unlikely that Hutchison would have said two sentences in the same press conference or speech that were so alike but different, so it's more likely that some of the quotes being attributed to her are wrong, or changed, or mis-remembering on the part of those attributing the quote to her.

I don't know why the Seattle Times story would have changed the quote, but their version of the AP story does contain quite a few differences from all the others that had the same AP source.

 

[surada]

The article states that, but the actual quote they use does not.


I am looking but can only find one source that implies that the count includes ANYONE (meaning: everyone) that's tested positive and dies from any non-related factor (gunshot, car accident, embarassment, etc.). The one you quoted from doesn't have an actual quote but a summation/paraphrase (https://komonews.com/news/local/sta...elated-deaths-likely-being-undercounted-in-wa).

I did find a quote from an AP story filed by/reported by Martha Bellisle that was close (https://apnews.com/82368881fe0c1a2183467857c3d65803).


Interestingly, that same quote is found the same on most websites that report the same exact AP story from Martha Bellisle, but one that is different and one that isn't the AP story that is completely changed:





Most of the articles I found use the first quote: "Our current dashboard reflects anybody that has died from covid irrespective of cause of death." The meaning is changed quite a bit when framed liked the Seattle Times did, or even worse the way that the Freedom Foundation did. It's very unlikely that Hutchison would have said two sentences in the same press conference or speech that were so alike but different, so it's more likely that some of the quotes being attributed to her are wrong, or changed, or mis-remembering on the part of those attributing the quote to her.

I don't know why the Seattle Times story would have changed the quote, but their version of the AP story does contain quite a few differences from all the others that had the same AP source.

According to this it depends on the State.

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[V Chip]

According to this it depends on the State.

MSN

www.msn.com

I realize that; I'm just going based off the "quote" that Jim posted from a specific state from a link about that state's policy.

 

[surada]

I realize that; I'm just going based off the "quote" that Jim posted from a specific state from a link about that state's policy.

I wasn't criticizing you .. Its apparently different in Alabama than in Colorado.. and then there's ARDS.

What is ARDS? Cause of Death in Critical Coronavirus ...
https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/what-is-ards
Apr 10, 2020 · ARDS is a Common Cause of Death in Critically Ill Coronavirus Patients—Here's Why For many people, COVID-19 only has mild symptoms, but for some, it can be deadly.

 

[MT15]

We most likely won’t know the best estimate of a death count for a while, but it’s most likely being undercounted rather than over counted at this point in time. Dr. Fauci believes this to be true, and I believe him, he has a lot of expertise in this area.

I know the death rate in NYC from “cardiac arrest” during the worst of their wave was a great deal higher than during a normal year. Paramedics were called to respond to people who died at home, likely due to Covid, but there was no way to test them, so they just recorded “cardiac arrest”.

When patients have a bad reaction, they can go quickly. We had a nurse drive herself to our testing site (two tents in the parking lot of an idled outpatient surgery center) because she had been self-isolating and then developed shortness of breath. She got so much worse just during the time she was in her car at the site, that she couldn’t even drive herself the several hundred yards to the hospital ED. One of the MAs working the testing site hopped in her car and drove her across the parking lot so she could get help. Her breathing deteriorated that quickly. A lot of people who were home alone and had that happen just died right there.

 

[surada]

We most likely won’t know the best estimate of a death count for a while, but it’s most likely being undercounted rather than over counted at this point in time. Dr. Fauci believes this to be true, and I believe him, he has a lot of expertise in this area.

I know the death rate in NYC from “cardiac arrest” during the worst of their wave was a great deal higher than during a normal year. Paramedics were called to respond to people who died at home, likely due to Covid, but there was no way to test them, so they just recorded “cardiac arrest”.

When patients have a bad reaction, they can go quickly. We had a nurse drive herself to our testing site (two tents in the parking lot of an idled outpatient surgery center) because she had been self-isolating and then developed shortness of breath. She got so much worse just during the time she was in her car at the site, that she couldn’t even drive herself the several hundred yards to the hospital ED. One of the MAs working the testing site hopped in her car and drove her across the parking lot so she could get help. Her breathing deteriorated that quickly. A lot of people who were home alone and had that happen just died right there.

Thank you for posting that.

 

[MT15]

It's hard to have a reasonable discussion on this subject when you make a statement like that and that's a commom theme in this thread. I think it's perfectly fine to criticize Trump for initially downplaying the virus, his administration's intial response, his lack of a clear & consistent message, the daily press conferences where he rambled, but it's not like any of that stopped the proper agencies from working behind the scenes.

I do think it's despicable to place the blame on Trump for all or most of the deaths due to a global pandemic. If this happened under Obama, I'm sure I would probably criticize some of his actions, but I definitely wouldn't be blaming him for all or most of the deaths.

You agree he wrongly downplayed the virus initially, lacked a clear and consistent message, and so forth, but what do you think was the outcome of these mistakes? He fired or reassigned a CDC spokeswoman for trying to relay the seriousness of the coming pandemic. The agency was crippled by his messages.

I agree it’s silly to try to quantify the deaths he is responsible for, but there’s no doubt more people died than should have died due to the mistakes he made. He is still not taking this seriously, we don‘t have a coherent national strategy for testing and tracing. He won’t even back up his own CDC recommendations, and he refuses to be seen wearing a mask.

 

[The moose]

This one is kinda not shocking that the giant hospital chains with mad cash got bailed out.

It is an interesting read had no idea that some had so much reserve cash.

Wealthiest Hospitals Got Billions in Bailout for Struggling Health Providers (Published 2020)

Twenty large chains received more than $5 billion in federal grants even while sitting on more than $100 billion in cash.

www.nytimes.com

 

[wardorican]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see out system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

I think we'll see how hollow the charges of "this is just a politician power play to take our rights" really is. No one wanted to shut down parts of their economies for any reason. No one. We'll see that when the state budgets are gutted to make up for the massive short falls.

health care reductions will be a hard sell. My guess is a reduction in state workers, and reductions in higher education, which means more tuition piled on; at a minimum.

 

[The moose]

I think we'll see how hollow the charges of "this is just a politician power play to take our rights" really is. No one wanted to shut down parts of their economies for any reason. No one. We'll see that when the state budgets are gutted to make up for the massive short falls.

health care reductions will be a hard sell. My guess is a reduction in state workers, and reductions in higher education, which means more tuition piled on; at a minimum.

I see the states making up shortfalls like they always have.

Like the lotto and gambling they will feed off of the lower class to pay for stuff.

I envision legal weed in places we never would have imagined it before. Sports gambling will also grow leaps and bounds to raise capital for states.

 

[wardorican]

Ok. Dude. 92k nursing home deaths. I don't care how you spin it. It's not right. Don't lie. Covid, heart attack?, Covid death. It's proven BS. This virus is contagious without a doubt. But don't pretend that we are going to see epic proportions of death. People like you should stay home.

Where do you get that 92k number? It seems pretty far fetched.

Track COVID-19 Nursing Home Cases, Deaths in Your State

Here is a list of states reporting information about nursing-home coronavirus cases and deaths — and how to find it. Check back for frequent updates.

www.aarp.org

Looks like the number is over 16,000 nursing home deaths, which is an undercount since not all states are giving out that info.

Here is just NY State, but they don't total up the data, and I don't feel like putting that much work into it today. Since they were the largest outbreak, their data is pretty useful.

https://www.health.ny.gov/statistics/diseases/covid-19/fatalities_nursing_home_acf.pdf

Let's just look at NY county.. 428 nursing home deaths, counting confirmed and suspected. NY county (the city) has had 2239 deaths. So, nursing homes account for about 20% of the total deaths. Some counties might be higher, but if we use 20-40% (which is probably generous), we'd be at around 20-40k cases (since we're in spitting distance of 100k dead).

So, 60-80% of the deaths are NOT from nursing homes.

 

[SystemShock]

I think it's perfectly fine to criticize Trump for initially downplaying the virus, his administration's intial response, his lack of a clear & consistent message, the daily press conferences where he rambled, but it's not like any of that stopped the proper agencies from working behind the scenes.

He did gut the proper agencies, or agency (CDC), both in funding and personnel specific to pandemics. Who do you blame for not winning the race? The runner who didn't win it because he was too slow, or the guy who hit him in the knee with a bat prior to the race?

I do think it's despicable to place the blame on Trump for all or most of the deaths due to a global pandemic.

Despicable?
Can we blame him for an extremely poor response to a global pandemic?

If this happened under Obama, I'm sure I would probably criticize some of his actions, but I definitely wouldn't be blaming him for all or most of the deaths.

Ok.