All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (4 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[LonghornSaint]

The one thing I see lately that puzzles me is the argument that some want death's attributed to COVID-19 when the patient wasn't infected but rather wanted to avoid the hospital or doctor because of the fear of getting infected from going to the hospital or doctor. For example, a man has slight chest pains and would normally go to the emergency room, but decides to stay home because he is fearful of getting infected because of all the rampant stories about hospitals going to be overcrowded with COVID-19(which very few in the US are). If he dies because he in fact did have a heart attack, some believe his death should be ascribed to COVID-19, and the reason they believe deaths are being under counted. The fact remains, he did not have COVID-19 and counting them as such would be completely inaccurate.

I have not heard of these arguments, but I contend that either over-reporting or under-reporting covid-19 deaths undermines our ability to accurately decide when and how to get people back to work.

When I read in that article Jim linked, where the Freedom Foundation claimed that deaths were inflated by 13% because (and I quote) [ALL] deaths by covid-19 positive people were counted towards covid-19 deaths, a clearly provocative statement that was quickly picked up and used by some in this thread as a strong basis for downplaying the severity of this situation, I had to ask myself WHY? Why would anyone latch onto something so easily refutable and yet potentially damaging in our efforts to get this country rolling again in a relatively safe manner?

 

[Heathen]

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All of these companies with their "heartfelt" tributes to Frontline workers yet will cut them off like the McDonald's ceo did, get out of here with that. Pay them more, value them more, treat them as humans not as replaceable parts, then you can air your thanks with a straight face.

 

[The moose]

The one thing I see lately that puzzles me is the argument that some want death's attributed to COVID-19 when the patient wasn't infected but rather wanted to avoid the hospital or doctor because of the fear of getting infected from going to the hospital or doctor. For example, a man has slight chest pains and would normally go to the emergency room, but decides to stay home because he is fearful of getting infected because of all the rampant stories about hospitals going to be overcrowded with COVID-19(which very few in the US are). If he dies because he in fact did have a heart attack, some believe his death should be ascribed to COVID-19, and the reason they believe deaths are being under counted. The fact remains, he did not have COVID-19 and counting them as such would be completely inaccurate.

What puzzles me is the numbers debate.

The administration did not set guidance in anything having to do with this virus. So yes we don't even have a national standard in counting.

I don't seem to get the up in arms about the numbers one place and not another.

New York counts differently than Florida and Georgia and so on. Completely different.

When states like new York count similarly to regular flu deaths for multiple reasons one being manpower and that is the way things are done should not be a problem.

The only thing the numbers debate leads me to is the utter lack of guidance by this administration.

The administration can't step up to the plate and take a swing they are just praying for a walk to get thru this.

 

[LonghornSaint]

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Damn right.... All of these companies with their "heartfelt" tributes to Frontline workers, gtfoh. Pay them more, value them more, treat them as humans not as replaceable parts, then you can air your thanks with a straight face.

I have a friend who coordinates clinical trials (Mayo Clinic), who had to accept 50% furlough pay, while taking on more ongoing study patients than he was before. They are expecting him to accomplish 60h of work with just 20h per week, with less pay, and if he screws something up, well, that it is on him. And he is legally forbidden to go into the office more than 20h per week...

Makes me so angry

 

[The moose]

Hair stylist worked while symptomatic, exposed clients to virus

Health officials were tracking down 91 people who were potentially exposed to determine if they've developed COVID-19.

www.nbcnews.com

I get this. I understand people have to eat.

This is gonna happen all over.

This is why the government needs to make testing free and easy.

What is really going to cost more a ton of test or a bunch sick senior citizens that uncle Sam play the hospital bills anyway?

 

[N.O.Bronco]

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Damn right.... All of these companies with their "heartfelt" tributes to Frontline workers, gtfoh. Pay them more, value them more, treat them as humans not as replaceable parts, then you can air your thanks with a straight face.

Yep:

• U.S. billionaires saw their fortunes soar by $434 billion during the nation’s lockdown between mid-March and mid-May, according to a new report.
• Amazon’s Jeff Bezos and Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg had the biggest gains.
• Bezos added $34.6 billion to his wealth and Zuckerberg picked up $25 billion.

More stats via CNBC news

But in Canada Amazon is cutting hourly rates and in America barely increasing them.

Kroger has dozens of dead frontline employees and are simultaneously lobbying the government to remove any liability they will have for not taking adequate mitigation steps.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

Hair stylist worked while symptomatic, exposed clients to virus

Health officials were tracking down 91 people who were potentially exposed to determine if they've developed COVID-19.

www.nbcnews.com

I get this. I understand people have to eat.

This is gonna happen all over.

This is why the government needs to make testing free and easy.

What is really going to cost more a ton of test or a bunch sick senior citizens that uncle Sam play the hospital bills anyway?

It’s also why the government should have a UBI and mandated hazard pay for any business operating in states that haven’t met all CDC guidelines so people aren’t forced to choose between unnecessarily going back to work or their ability to keep the lights on. Unemployment is helpful but it also puts workers with inhumane bosses forcing their workers to come in to be stuck putting their health at risk or risking no money as quitting locks you out of unemployment and the market being what it is offers you no bargaining power.

 

[Intensesaint]

Who are the people making that argument? Certainly not any in the medical profession I hope. I haven’t heard that argument being presented, but if I had it’s obvious that if we’re going into the “what if” scenarios, then they would have to also include facts like traffic fatalities are down because of the shelter in place which is directly as a result of Covid and thus deaths should be lowered as well. It’s not really a good argument for those (very few I assume) who are making it.

It was in moose's article he posted.

Florida may be undercounting coronavirus deaths by up to 58%: analysis

A new model also projects that Florida will be hit hard over the next four weeks as the state reopens

www.salon.com

"Health experts say that likely includes some people who died of coronavirus but were never diagnosed, as well as others who might have lived had the pandemic not kept them from getting care," the Tampa Bay Times reported.

This is a good article talking about people not coming in for fear of contracting COVID-19.

Do Not Delay Urgent Medical Care Due To The COVID-19 Coronavirus Pandemic

There are both "seen" and "unseen" health consequences to COVID-19 and lockdowns.

www.forbes.com

 

[N.O.Bronco]

Who are the people making that argument? Certainly not any in the medical profession I hope. I haven’t heard that argument being presented, but if I had it’s obvious that if we’re going into the “what if” scenarios, then they would have to also include facts like traffic fatalities are down because of the shelter in place which is directly as a result of Covid and thus deaths should be lowered as well. It’s not really a good argument for those (very few I assume) who are making it.

Excess deaths is a real thing, and a real thing that should be accounted for when looking at the impact of this virus. Though not in the way it was framed by the other poster.

I.E. the sort of non-Covid deaths that occur in excess of the average over that period in a given place. The people that died of a heart attack because resources were not, a person that needed a ventilator but couldn't get one because of Covid etc. It’s something that can take years to fully get a decent estimate of but it’s important for all sorts of reasons.

It’s also good to look at overall medically derived fatalities that shown Covid like symptoms relative to the average in none-pandemic year's because it can also give you a sense of likely undiagnosed covid related deaths. For instance here in Texas and Houston we are well above average medical related fatalities during the outbreak period but the gap is not closed by inserting the current count of Covid deaths. Which means there probably are a lot of covid related deaths not yet accounted for. In places like nursing homes, private residences, or being labeled as something else because a test wasn't available. Some of it will always remain estimate work because many that died will never be tested. And given the lack of widespread testing and that gap, it's almost certainly an issue of under reporting and not over reporting

 

[V Chip]

It was in moose's article he posted.

Florida may be undercounting coronavirus deaths by up to 58%: analysis

A new model also projects that Florida will be hit hard over the next four weeks as the state reopens

www.salon.com

"Health experts say that likely includes some people who died of coronavirus but were never diagnosed, as well as others who might have lived had the pandemic not kept them from getting care," the Tampa Bay Times reported.

This is a good article talking about people not coming in for fear of contracting COVID-19.

Do Not Delay Urgent Medical Care Due To The COVID-19 Coronavirus Pandemic

There are both "seen" and "unseen" health consequences to COVID-19 and lockdowns.

www.forbes.com

In that article linked from Salon (https://www.tampabay.com/news/healt...sed-hundreds-of-additional-deaths-in-florida/) they also mention the decrease in deaths (homicide and traffic fatalities are mentioned) because of people being sheltered in place:

At the same time, the analysis also showed a drop in deaths from external causes such as homicides and motor-vehicle accidents — presumably because people stayed home to avoid the virus. It is unclear whether the decline was enough to offset the increase in deaths from natural causes, but that was within the range of possibilities the analysis revealed.

The findings illustrate the complexity of measuring the virus’ impact, given the many ways it has reshaped daily life.

“There are indirect and direct consequences of a pandemic like this,” said Mark Hayward, an expert in mortality statistics and professor at the University of Texas at Austin.

“Of course we know the direct consequences,” he added. “Some of the other ones are poorly measured.”

The Forbes article mostly talks about the drop in ER visits and only in passing mentions anything about increased deaths as a result of staying away from the ER (“We should have higher incidences of these events [heart attacks], but we are seeing dramatically fewer in the hospital system. That has to mean they are at home or in the morgue.”).

 

[TheRealTruth]

In that article linked from Salon (https://www.tampabay.com/news/healt...sed-hundreds-of-additional-deaths-in-florida/) they also mention the decrease in deaths (homicide and traffic fatalities are mentioned) because of people being sheltered in place:

Then that would make it a wash, nullifying both arguments, and deaths being reported are accurate. I don't see how either side can have it their way.

 

[donato]

1 In 5 Adults In England Think The Coronavirus Is A Hoax

Oxford research has found conspiracy theories about the virus gaining ground.

www.npr.org

Seems it's not just England. There are a number of people here who repeatedly demonstrated these characteristics.

 

[The moose]

Then that would make it a wash, nullifying both arguments, and deaths being reported are accurate. I don't see how either side can have it their way.

Pretty much. It is meant to kill the conversation just as it has done here for page after page after page.

It works well at shelving the other conversation.

I would rather we continue to talk about other aspects of the coronavirus even if we have to ignore that fight all together to do so.

It is not even like creditable news sites are even pushing it.

 

[TheRealTruth]

Pretty much. It is meant to kill the conversation just as it has done here for page after page after page.

It works well at shelving the other conversation.

I would rather we continue to talk about other aspects of the coronavirus even if we have to ignore that fight all together to do so.

It is not even like creditable news sites are even pushing it.

Are you saying that Solon.com, Forbes and Tampa Bay Times are not credible news sources?

 

[The moose]

Are you saying that Solon.com, Forbes and Tampa Bay Times are not credible news sources?

What I am saying is that more people died than in Vietnam definitely no matter what side of that fence you live on. That is just unacceptable.

This is to push an agenda that will definitely kill more people.

I am no longer playing that game.

Done finished.

Got some other aspects of the coronavirus I am game will gladly play.

 

[Dragon]

What worry me the most about this virus is that we still don't really know all about it and won't for some time. It may "only" kill less than 2% but what if it leaves 5% or more with permanent damage of some kind which will require a lot of ressources going forward and will affect the rest of their lives?

 

[insidejob]

What worry me the most about this virus is that we still don't really know all about it and won't for some time. It may "only" kill less than 2% but what if it leaves 5% or more with permanent damage of some kind which will require a lot of ressources going forward and will affect the rest of their lives?

Especially considering the outbreak that happened in China on the border with Russia where the version of COVID-19 is showing different features than the one they thought they had under control. Many of these people traveled to Russia and got it there but lots didn't as well and now they have another spike in China and have gone into lockdown in the area just like they did in Wuhan.

ETA: I think I posted this article yesterday, but in case I didn't...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/21/...Zi34W9iZia4N-dsAmOOx8i2kogZuH25zLnxjHXaWSJXeU

 

[The moose]

What worry me the most about this virus is that we still don't really know all about it and won't for some time. It may "only" kill less than 2% but what if it leaves 5% or more with permanent damage of some kind which will require a lot of ressources going forward and will affect the rest of their lives?

That aspect is totally unknown at this point.

I know I had walking pneumonia two winters ago. Did not go to the hospital was handled with meds at home but it took a sold couple months before my endurance came back. Got winded doing silly stuff and that is not nearly as bad as this.