All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (13 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[The moose]

Writing for a blog funded through Robert Mercer. Who’s chief editor moonlighted for one of his political operative organizations.

Might as well start citing BreitBart and The Conservative Treehouse to buff up arguments at that point.


Why do you keep sourcing articles that are simply fronts for Robert Mercer’s Political Operative foundations designed to spread disinformation and misinformation?

Yep the same guy that was former principal investor Cambridge analytica.

Do we see a trend in his posts?

 

[JimEverett]

Is there any evidence of car crash victims being labeled as dying from COVID, or are you assuming his statement isn’t actually wrong?

Yes. The fact that the states of Washington and Colorado - have counted deaths from anyone that has tested positive for Covid-19 as a Covid-19 death. It is really not that hard to understand

You know as well as I do the implication is in his statement, and his post is not a valid criticism of COVID death numbers.

You know as well as I do that your post was wrong, but instead of admitting it you want to change the subject and talk about "implications."

 

[The moose]

I find fault with your post because you are flat-out wrong. At least two states - Washington and Colorado - have acknowledged the issue. If your problem was the "implication" of surviving State's post you should have made that point instead of stating that he was categorically wrong

When are we gonna address the source issues with another article?

 

[Beach Friends]

Might I suggest reading the creditable sources thread AGAIN!

That article is an absolute joke.

So you post an article from tiny Washington St news paper that is a reprint of a press release from the freedom foundation.

Come on man that is a pathetic attempt to back up an argument.

Sad!

That's an excellent way to avoid dealing with the substance of an article, which you likely did not even bother to read. Just point out the newspaper is "tiny" and then declare that on that basis alone it is not "creditable."

 

[V Chip]

Yes. The fact that the states of Washington and Colorado - have counted deaths from anyone that has tested positive for Covid-19 as a Covid-19 death. It is really not that hard to understand

Great! Can you give me a link showing this, or are you assuming again?

You know as well as I do that your post was wrong, but instead of admitting it you want to change the subject and talk about "implications."

No my post was right. They are not counting car crash victims as COVID deaths, nor gunshot victims. They get mislabeled sometimes in the initial estimates, but as the article YOU linked clearly stated, they get corrected when the real information becomes available. You apparently don’t want to admit THAT fact.

If I were to say Georgia is underreporting COVID cases as a policy under Kemp would you say I am right? Even though what they do is report initial estimates but since it takes up to two weeks to get ALL the numbers in, their initial daily numbers are ALWAYS lower than the actual numbers.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

That's an excellent way to avoid dealing with the substance of an article, which you likely did not even bother to read. Just point out the newspaper is "tiny" and then declare that on that basis alone it is not "creditable."

The newspaper, if you call it that, is a heavily chamber of commerce influenced community broadsheet that is simply posting a ultra right wing political operative foundation’s misleading press release as news. They may have other redeeming qualities but simply posting this as news isn’t it.

It is interesting you didn’t even pick up on any of that but are already reflexively running to the defense of the article, the source, and the poster.

 

[The moose]

That's an excellent way to avoid dealing with the substance of an article, which you likely did not even bother to read. Just point out the newspaper is "tiny" and then declare that on that basis alone it is not "creditable."

Nope that is not it.

It is from a wack right wing web site the freedom foundation.

Written by a man who's job is busting unions. He is actually the freedom foundation labor policy director.

Now you are more than welcome to explain to me how a union buster has any earthly idea about a pandemic please do.

 

[JimEverett]

Great! Can you give me a link showing this, or are you assuming again?

No my post was right. They are not counting car crash victims as COVID deaths, nor gunshot victims. They get mislabeled sometimes in the initial estimates, but as the article YOU linked clearly stated, they get corrected when the real information becomes available. You apparently don’t want to admit THAT fact.

If I were to say Georgia is underreporting COVID cases as a policy under Kemp would you say I am right? Even though what they do is report initial estimates but since it takes up to two weeks to get ALL the numbers in, their initial daily numbers are ALWAYS lower than the actual numbers.

"We currently do have some deaths that are being reported that are clearly from other causes." Dr. Katie Hutchison, Health Statistics Manager for the Washington State Department of Health.

State epidemiologists: COVID-19-related deaths likely being undercounted in WA

OLYMPIA, Wash. -- Epidemiologists with the Washington State Department of Health believe COVID-19-related deaths are likely being undercounted in Washington. In a virtual briefing with reporters Thursday, DOH officials said tracking COVID-19 death data is not an easy task. "There are a number...

komonews.com

 

[N.O.Bronco]

"We currently do have some deaths that are being reported that are clearly from other causes." Dr. Katie Hutchison, Health Statistics Manager for the Washington State Department of Health.

State epidemiologists: COVID-19-related deaths likely being undercounted in WA

OLYMPIA, Wash. -- Epidemiologists with the Washington State Department of Health believe COVID-19-related deaths are likely being undercounted in Washington. In a virtual briefing with reporters Thursday, DOH officials said tracking COVID-19 death data is not an easy task. "There are a number...

komonews.com

Hahaha

Even in your automatically generated headline V Chips point is proven again.

Yes, initial counts may roll non-covid related deaths into their numbers, but that gets adjusted and ultimately the issue at hand is an under reporting of deaths, not over reporting. Which is what that poster and the Freedom Foundation wanted to imply.

You all really need to stop and think before going to bat for your team. Motivated Reasoning like this gets you into some tricky binds.

 

[Beach Friends]

Nope that is not it.

It is from a wack right wing web site the freedom foundation.

Written by a man who's job is busting unions. He is actually the freedom foundation labor policy director.

Now you are more than welcome to explain to me how a union buster has any earthly idea about a pandemic please do.

Are you claiming that he misquoted the DOH?

 

[V Chip]

"We currently do have some deaths that are being reported that are clearly from other causes." Dr. Katie Hutchison, Health Statistics Manager for the Washington State Department of Health.

State epidemiologists: COVID-19-related deaths likely being undercounted in WA

OLYMPIA, Wash. -- Epidemiologists with the Washington State Department of Health believe COVID-19-related deaths are likely being undercounted in Washington. In a virtual briefing with reporters Thursday, DOH officials said tracking COVID-19 death data is not an easy task. "There are a number...

komonews.com

Yep.

Didn’t see car crashes listed there.

Hey, if you can be pedantic, I can too.

 

[The moose]

Are you claiming that he misquoted the DOH?

Are you suggesting that he has any creditability in this field?

Are you suggesting that a bought and paid for web site to squash unions would not have motive to push the death numbers down?

Let's make this easy. I will raise you Washington State over 13% to a Florida under by 56%

Florida may be undercounting coronavirus deaths by up to 58%: analysis

A new model also projects that Florida will be hit hard over the next four weeks as the state reopens

www.salon.com

 

[N.O.Bronco]

Are you claiming that he misquoted the DOH?

Well, listening through the actual presentation this so-called “report” rests on, they definitely took things out of context and buried the lede. Not surprising considering had they been more upfront their attempt to mislead the public into questioning death rates or trusting the reporting would be hurt. the presentation goes through the difficulty of providing real-time information and admits in doing so does leave room for errors, as any real-time reporting does, but that goes both directions, and that ultimately what follow up data they have says we are under-reporting, not over-reporting deaths, and that mislabeled deaths are corrected and seem to be incredibly small. And that over time the system has only improved as standardizing and accuracy of the inputs improve.

 

[Zombiewoof]

Public service announcement: Before posting today, make sure you have read Andrus' post at the top of the MCB.

 

[The moose]

Public service announcement: Before posting today, make sure you have read Andrus' post at the top of the MCB.

Thanks just did.

 

[LonghornSaint]

"We currently do have some deaths that are being reported that are clearly from other causes." Dr. Katie Hutchison, Health Statistics Manager for the Washington State Department of Health.

State epidemiologists: COVID-19-related deaths likely being undercounted in WA

OLYMPIA, Wash. -- Epidemiologists with the Washington State Department of Health believe COVID-19-related deaths are likely being undercounted in Washington. In a virtual briefing with reporters Thursday, DOH officials said tracking COVID-19 death data is not an easy task. "There are a number...

komonews.com

Jim, that article you linked does not support the premise that all who have tested positive for covid-19 are automatically having covid-19 put as the cause of death on the death certificate.

"We currently do have some deaths that are being reported that are clearly from other causes. We have about 5 deaths less than 5 deaths that we know of that are related to obvious other causes. In this case, they are from gunshot wounds," Hutchison said.

Those cases are currently included in the state's COVID-19 death count, Hutchison said. But the number will be adjusted.

The below section is a little further down in the article...
There are approximately 20-30 other death cases that are harder to definitely rule out, Hutchison added. The cases do not have COVID-19 listed on the person's death certificate as a cause of death, but the certificates list other things like Alzheimer's disease and cancer.

And a little further down...
Not included in the state’s COVID-19 death count is approximately 3,000 cases where the person’s death certificate indicated symptoms similar to COVID-19, but it’s not clear if COVID-19 actually played a role in the person’s death, Hutchison said.

"We suspect that we are actually more likely to be undercounting deaths than overcounting them," Hutchison told reporters.

 

[Intensesaint]

The one thing I see lately that puzzles me is the argument that some want death's attributed to COVID-19 when the patient wasn't infected but rather wanted to avoid the hospital or doctor because of the fear of getting infected from going to the hospital or doctor. For example, a man has slight chest pains and would normally go to the emergency room, but decides to stay home because he is fearful of getting infected because of all the rampant stories about hospitals going to be overcrowded with COVID-19(which very few in the US are). If he dies because he in fact did have a heart attack, some believe his death should be ascribed to COVID-19, and the reason they believe deaths are being under counted. The fact remains, he did not have COVID-19 and counting them as such would be completely inaccurate.

 

[V Chip]

The one thing I see lately that puzzles me is the argument that some want death's attributed to COVID-19 when the patient wasn't infected but rather wanted to avoid the hospital or doctor because of the fear of getting infected from going to the hospital or doctor.

Who are the people making that argument? Certainly not any in the medical profession I hope. I haven’t heard that argument being presented, but if I had it’s obvious that if we’re going into the “what if” scenarios, then they would have to also include facts like traffic fatalities are down because of the shelter in place which is directly as a result of Covid and thus deaths should be lowered as well. It’s not really a good argument for those (very few I assume) who are making it.