All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (2 Viewers)

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Maxp

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I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see out system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?
 

The moose

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Because then the current administration can say that Covid-19 is no more dangerous than the flu and everything should be opened up.

By lowering the number of deaths they are trying to convince people the pandemic is not serious

What he said.

We have multiple states not counting the same way.

This is another thing that the administration should have set in stone. If we all did things the same way we would have an actual idea of what is really going on without remembering that Georgia, Florida and other states with republican leadership play number games.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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Because then the current administration can say that Covid-19 is no more dangerous than the flu and everything should be opened up.

By lowering the number of deaths they are trying to convince people the pandemic is not serious
He was asking why were the numbers "inflated" in the first place.

The simple answer is they weren't "inflated". Typically with infectious diseases, the CDC recommends listing that as the proximate cause of death, even if there are other underlying causes that likely were contributory factors. The idea being that the infectious disease was the straw that broke the camel's back, and without it, the person would probably have lived.

The CDC publishes their methodology so it isn't secret. But like everything that relies on human reporting, there are judgement calls to be made and mistakes as well.
 

J-DONK

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He was asking why were the numbers "inflated" in the first place.

The simple answer is they weren't "inflated". Typically with infectious diseases, the CDC recommends listing that as the proximate cause of death, even if there are other underlying causes that likely were contributory factors. The idea being that the infectious disease was the straw that broke the camel's back, and without it, the person would probably have lived.

The CDC publishes their methodology so it isn't secret. But like everything that relies on human reporting, there are judgement calls to be made and mistakes as well.
Thanks for having some civil and informative discourse Jim. There is some evidence that humidity and temperature lowers the R0. If Florida really is having a lower amount of spread, that maybe one of the factors. Hopefully means we have a lower amount of spread over the summer, and reopening can progress. If this is the case I've heard it argued that you open over the summer to keep a slow burn of spread going through the population with no spikes, to further lower the R0 for a second wave in the fall.
 

Surviving Saint

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but the following waves ended up tallying 50,000,000 deaths.

If we don't start mass testing and contact tracing our butts off, there's a real fear that the same thing is going to happen when Fall gets here.
This is fear mongering at its best. You should be on TV. What are you wasting your time here for?
 

Heathen

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OFFICIALLY? Really?

Even after states are auditing their Covid deaths and reducing them by the hundreds?

It's obvious some of you are so scared of this virus, that won't leave your home. That's fine. I'm not asking you to. But don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.
If anything, states (like Georgia) are purposefully trying to REDUCE the number of deaths visible to the public based on this disease.

But keep pushing that political narrative.
 

RobF

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This is fear mongering at its best. You should be on TV. What are you wasting your time here for?
I'd usually just report this stuff, but I think it's worth making the point publicly for once.

What are you wasting your time here for? This forum is specifically for 'civil and intelligent discussion'. What do you hope to accomplish with a response like that, one which is both uncivil and doesn't adequately comprehend the post it's replying to, consequently failing to address the point it makes and instead throwing petty snark about?

And the same goes for the people liking that post, who should also know better. This forum was created to be better than that.

@insidejob's post made a valid point. History has shown us that the second wave of a pandemic can be deadlier than the first, with it being estimated that over 50 million people died from the 1918 flu pandemic, with the large majority of those dying in the second wave. It is completely reasonable to observe that a second, deadlier wave is a real fear in the absence of adequate measures being taken, as @insidejob says.

An intelligent, but critical, response might recognise the validity of that point while also noting that some think the increased mortality of the second wave was in part due to mutation, rather than purely a failure of health policy measures, and noting that with 21st century measures and an absence of some key factors in the 1918 flu pandemic - WW1 being the most obvious - together could indicate that a second wave wouldn't be likely to be as deadly as in the 1918 pandemic, since mutation is believed to be less likely with SARS-CoV-2 and, even if COVID-19 does have a higher mortality rate, it could be that improved health measures, even if imperfectly enacted, more than counter that.

It would still remain the fact that we know inadequate health policy measures can at least in part drive a second wave of a pandemic, and that the real possibility exists of that being deadlier than the first, and hence it would still remain valid to describe that as a real fear.

But that, for example, could serve as the basis for a reasonable discussion. "This is fear mongering at its best. You should be on TV. What are you wasting your time here for?", no, not so much. That's just embarrassing.
 

Surviving Saint

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If anything, states (like Georgia) are purposefully trying to REDUCE the number of deaths visible to the public based on this disease.

But keep pushing that political narrative.
Read this

 

V Chip

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Oh so the truth hurts? Like it has so often before.

50 million dead. Anyone that believes this virus is that deadly or has even a remote chance of being this deadly, is not intelligent. There you can report that.
Hey derp, he didn't say 50 million would die again this time -- he said if we're not careful we'll get a second wave that is much more deadly than the first. The same thing happened for the LAST pandemic we had in the US -- H1N1's second wave killed 4.6 times more people than the first wave did.

Maybe you can quit the reactionary snowflake hyperbole and read what was said without jumping to ridiculous conclusions -- and if you're unsure of something ASK instead of being an butt crevasse.
 

Surviving Saint

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Hey derp, he didn't say 50 million would die again this time -- he said if we're not careful we'll get a second wave that is much more deadly than the first. The same thing happened for the LAST pandemic we had in the US -- H1N1's second wave killed 4.6 times more people than the first wave did.

Maybe you can quit the reactionary snowflake hyperbole and read what was said without jumping to ridiculous conclusions -- and if you're unsure of something ASK instead of being an butt crevasse.
We didn't shut down for H1N1 for the first or 2nd wave.
 

RobF

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Oh so the truth hurts? Like it has so often before.
That's both childish and nonsensical. Why would you disagreeing about the precise range of future fatalities of COVID-19 hurt, especially when 1) it's not even the point of the post you're replying to, and 2) I literally just gave an example of an intelligent argument that a second wave of COVID-19 isn't likely to be as deadly as the subsequent waves of 1918 flu were myself?

Again, what are you trying to accomplish here? Responses like that might annoy other posters, but the only thing they're going to hurt is your own reputation.

50 million dead. Anyone that believes this virus is that deadly or has even a remote chance of being this deadly, is not intelligent. There you can report that.
I probably should, but how about I continue to publicly suggest you make a civil and intelligent response instead? You can either do so, or notably not do so.

Why do you think a second wave with higher fatalities in the event of inadequate health measures being enacted isn't a real fear? If you think it is a real fear, but it's unlikely that subsequent waves will prove as deadly as in the 1918 pandemic, firstly maybe acknowledge that, and secondly what are you basing that on? What do you think the maximum IFR of SARS-CoV-2 might be, and, in the event of inadequate health measures being enacted and a second wave occurring, what do you think the ceiling for percentage of the population infected over the lifetime of the pandemic is, in that scenario?

That might provide some basis for discussion.

Or you could just continue to fail to address the point of a post, responding with pettiness and providing no substance whatsoever for your own opinion, while ironically calling other people 'not intelligent'.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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We didn't shut down for H1N1 for the first or 2nd wave.
B/c H1N1 was not as deadly as COVID-19. It was also a flu variant, so it spread slower. People over the age of 65 already had anti-bodies for it, so they weren't as much at risk, it mainly effected younger people who had a better chance of fighting it off.

The point of bringing it up is with new contagions, the second wave is almost always more deadly than the first wave.

You seem to be stuck on the notion that COVID-19 is not significantly more deadly and infectious than the normal flu or H1N1 or whatever. Different diseases require different public health responses.
 

SystemShock

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I think under the second column I would add, "anything said in a gender studies course." Hell, you could probably add anything said in any course or program that has the word "studies" in the title.
Studies are one of those things that need context around them and a modicum of understanding of the scientific method. After all, a study is the first step in the scientific method: that's what you observe, and from which you draw your hypothesis. So they are very much part of "better science", and based on their scope and validity of test methods, they could very well end up refuting established science.

Of course, when you hear in the news things like "pepper could cause cancer... scientists fed 2 pounds of pepper to 10 lab rats each for 3 years and they developed cancer cells"... well...
 

Dragon

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Almost 100K death in the US in less than 5 months should prove that this is no ordinary virus. And for those who say that this only affects the elder and vulnerable - well this virus keeps showing more and more different ways that it kills or injure those infected.

  • Children with Kowasaki-like symptoms
  • Young/healthy atheltic people - mostly stroke, heart and circulatory systems.
  • Elderly destroy the lungs
  • Evidence of changes to cell dna in multiple instances.
  • Skin leasions - especially on hands and feet.
  • Serious eye infections (red eyes)
How many of those who survive who have longlasting/lifechanging damages is still unknown too and some damages may not be known for more than a year, like how would it affect an early fetus - considering that there has been multiple instances where infections have caused cell dna to change?

This virus is SIX month old and the doctors are still finding new ways that it affects people - so please don't underestimate this!
 

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