All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (2 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[Surviving Saint]

Surviving Saint, I don’t mean to pick on you but you were just the last one to make statements that are incongruent with the scientific world.

What is your degree in? I am not trying to be a jerk but you speak in an awful lot of absolutes; so I would assume you are in the virological or epidemiological fields? Or economics or engineering; so you are used to analyzing large data sets?

Again, not trying to be a jerk. But you might want to post an article, research paper or a credential or two if you are going to declare that the science of ANYTHING is bunk. Especially with the voracity with which you communicate. As an engineer and scientist I find people’s flippant use of math and science, not only discouraging but also, in this instance, incredibly dangerous.

So I ask again. What is it your that allows you to make such confident statements without a modicum of supporting evidence? Because if you have this supporting evidence, please provide it for scrutiny. I would really take pleasure in reading a sound paper written from the Open’er Up camp. I just can’t seem to find one that isn’t immediately discerned as trash due to either methodological or environmental inaccuracies or biases that fly off the page. And please understand the folks screaming the end is nigh are producing garbage studies too. People have been way too injected into the equation for most studies not to be unverifiable- there are 7 billion discrete variables for jeebus sakes- how you organize these is the difference between an actual study or someone just doing fancy math.

You see, we don’t get to feel about science. the hypothesis and results are either proven through rigorous, controlled testing of said hypothesis, results peer reviewed and findings ratified; or your hypothesis is wrong. It is that simple. What happens all too often is anecdotal evidence is being communicated as sound hypothesis that has been tested or even scientific fact.

My "degree" is in engineering. It has nothing to do with studying data sets.

Are we supposed to all shelter in place until next year or possibly 2 to 3 years? when a vaccine is out?

This so called 2nd wave might happen or it won't. I don't believe it will. It's a virus. It's not killing everyone that contracts it. Many people don't even know they have it. They will never get symptoms so why do the healthy people need to quarantine themselves?

This is common sense. We will never test everyone in this country. Should healthy people without symptoms get tested? Should everyone with the sniffles get tested? I guess the more we test the better though.

We still using the 2 weeks behind Italy phrase for why we need to stay on lock down?

How many people were infected last year? We don't know when it started. We probably have had millions of people infected already and I'm supposed to believe that this 2nd wave is going to kill a million people? In NYC if you are under 65,you have at least a 99% chance of living. This virus is not killing healthy people. Test nursing homes, keep those places free of Covid and watch the death rate tumble.

I don't believe anything that airs on TV so no, it's not Fox, CNN etc. Everything on TV is made-up before it airs. Facts are thrown in for fun. Alot of people are scared because of what they see on TV. Turn it off. Live your life. You only have one.

You don't have to agree with me. Alot of what's going on with this virus is political on both sides.

 

[Beach Friends]

I read this a week ago:

'Abusive, dictatorial, tyrannical': Republicans ramp up attacks on lockdowns

Hard-liners are embracing the protests against stay-at-home orders, with some hoping to spark a sequel to the tea party.

www.politico.com

I come to this board and here is Beach Friends bashing the lockdown.

"LOOK, Politico told me what to think and now I thunk it."

And here you are talking about talking points? Not to mention you are so self unaware that you are the one who brought up irony.

Incredible series of posts JDonk.

 

[Beach Friends]

Well this would be very interesting..

Covid Patients Testing Positive After Recovery Aren’t Infectious, Study Shows

Researchers are finding evidence that patients who test positive for the coronavirus after recovering aren’t capable of transmitting the infection, and could have the antibodies that prevent them from falling sick again.

www.bloomberg.com

I wonder what this will mean for someone who tests positivd but has never shown symptoms. Will such a person need to start a self quarantine due to the uncertainty? Or, can that person proceed with an antibody test and if it comes up positive can he be confident that he is not infectious?

There is a podcast, "Asian Boss," that has interviewed South Korea's top infectious disease expert three times now. Maybe they will go back for a fourth.

 

[Farb]

I didn't see this posted. I found it interesting and a different perspective. If it was posted and I missed it, apologies.
https://www.politico.com/newsletter.../05/14/florida-man-beats-covid-for-now-489225

 

[Saintamaniac]

We will never test everyone in this country.

Unfortunately, I think you are correct on this.

Should healthy people without symptoms get tested? Should everyone with the sniffles get tested?

IMO and the opinion of a lot of people with a lot of letters behind their name, the more people that get tested the better. As has been said over and over again, asymptomatic people still spread the virus. The problem is that they don't know they are spreading it.

I guess the more we test the better though.

I agree with you here. The more we test the better idea we will have of where hot spots really exist.

You don't have to agree with me. Alot of what's going on with this virus is political on both sides.

That will be the shame that the people doing this will live with and be remembered for. That people are making a life and death situation where 90K American lives have already been lost a political issue to win points for their side is the most despicable thing that anyone could do. When did we devolve in American society to a point that the difference between people living or dying became a political point?

 

[Lapaz]

My "degree" is in engineering. It has nothing to do with studying data sets.

Are we supposed to all shelter in place until next year or possibly 2 to 3 years? when a vaccine is out?

This so called 2nd wave might happen or it won't. I don't believe it will. It's a virus. It's not killing everyone that contracts it. Many people don't even know they have it. They will never get symptoms so why do the healthy people need to quarantine themselves?

This is common sense. We will never test everyone in this country. Should healthy people without symptoms get tested? Should everyone with the sniffles get tested? I guess the more we test the better though.

We still using the 2 weeks behind Italy phrase for why we need to stay on lock down?

How many people were infected last year? We don't know when it started. We probably have had millions of people infected already and I'm supposed to believe that this 2nd wave is going to kill a million people? In NYC if you are under 65,you have at least a 99% chance of living. This virus is not killing healthy people. Test nursing homes, keep those places free of Covid and watch the death rate tumble.

I don't believe anything that airs on TV so no, it's not Fox, CNN etc. Everything on TV is made-up before it airs. Facts are thrown in for fun. Alot of people are scared because of what they see on TV. Turn it off. Live your life. You only have one.

You don't have to agree with me. Alot of what's going on with this virus is political on both sides.

Why can’t we test everyone? We’re spending trillions to help the economy. A small fraction of that would allow everyone to be tested.

Seemingly healthy people can be carriers for weeks. Unless you are regularly tested, such healthy people can infect others. Old are not the only people that get very sick, so you can’t look at a person to determine whether you can get close to them. Also, even some people that have survived are showing lasting signs of health damage that may be permanent. Also, is everyone over 65 supposed to live separately? No one credible has suggested sheltering in place for years. Credible people say we need to prepare to handle infections. That happens with sanitation, PPE, tests, contact tracing and selective quarantines. That protects everyone practically, because a huge percentage of the population can’t be separated from the stronger people.

 

[Lapaz]

I wonder what this will mean for someone who tests positivd but has never shown symptoms. Will such a person need to start a self quarantine due to the uncertainty? Or, can that person proceed with an antibody test and if it comes up positive can he be confident that he is not infectious?

There is a podcast, "Asian Boss," that has interviewed South Korea's top infectious disease expert three times now. Maybe they will go back for a fourth.

I believe if they test positive, they need to quarantine. If they take an antibody test, I’m sure they will also test positive, but they are infected, and healthy people spread the virus, so they need to quarantine.

 

[Beach Friends]

I believe if they test positive, they need to quarantine. If they take an antibody test, I’m sure they will also test positive, but they are infected, and healthy people spread the virus, so they need to quarantine.

You may be right as a practical matter, but I don't feel like we have enough information to really understand the implications- or at least I don't.

As I understand it, there is a category of people who were once symptomatic but then recovered. After a period of time, however, they test positive again for the virus. But on further testing the virus does not grow which indicates that although the person tests positive he is no longer shedding an infectious virus.

So, what if a person comes in and has never been symptomatic but is testing positive and has developed antibodies? Is it medically possible that such a person has passed through the phase where he is shedding an active virus? It seem like that could be the case, but you really would not know without further testing.

I have no idea how complex or expensive that further testing would be though. So again, as a practical matter you may be correct even though a quarantine would not be medically necessary if you had all the info.

 

[Lapaz]

You may be right as a practical matter, but I don't feel like we have enough information to really understand the implications- or at least I don't.

As I understand it, there is a category of people who were once symptomatic but then recovered. After a period of time, however, they test positive again for the virus. But on further testing the virus does not grow which indicates that although the person tests positive he is no longer shedding an infectious virus.

So, what if a person comes in and has never been symptomatic but is testing positive and has developed antibodies? Is it medically possible that such a person has passed through the phase where he is shedding an active virus? It seem like that could be the case, but you really would not know without further testing.

I have no idea how complex or expensive that further testing would be though. So again, as a practical matter you may be correct even though a quarantine would not be medically necessary if you had all the info.

I've read that people shed both before they develop symptoms and after symptoms have subsided, which is why you're always told to quarantine yourself for at least 14 days. You probably won't have symptoms for 14 days, but you'll still be shedding.

 

[The moose]

Well this would be very interesting..

Covid Patients Testing Positive After Recovery Aren’t Infectious, Study Shows

Researchers are finding evidence that patients who test positive for the coronavirus after recovering aren’t capable of transmitting the infection, and could have the antibodies that prevent them from falling sick again.

www.bloomberg.com

Thanks good read.


I absolutely love this place without the bickering and more links to articles.

I can't invest the time in finding everything and really appreciate it when they are posted if I agree with them or not.

 

[The moose]

I wonder what this will mean for someone who tests positivd but has never shown symptoms. Will such a person need to start a self quarantine due to the uncertainty? Or, can that person proceed with an antibody test and if it comes up positive can he be confident that he is not infectious?

There is a podcast, "Asian Boss," that has interviewed South Korea's top infectious disease expert three times now. Maybe they will go back for a fourth.

Well my understanding is just try and win your battle with the virus. If you don't die and make it out of your quarantine you now have antibodies.

So if you are positive you don't need the antibody test if you survive!

Healthy people that pass the virus test then need the antibody test to know if they ever had it.

If it was a fact that people knew that they never had it they can then deal with life accordingly.

Heck if I had to fly on a plane I would like to know whom I am seated with. The people that have never had it will certainly continue to mask and use hand sanitizer and I would want to be seated with people that are in the same boat. Once you know you beat it you don't have to anymore.

 

[The moose]

Coronavirus: As Florida re-opens, COVID-19 data chief gets sidelined and researchers cry foul

Researchers fear a wave of data censorship after the manager of Florida's COVID-19 dashboard is removed from her post

www.floridatoday.com

Pretty good read.

Kinda sheds doubt on Florida and the numbers they post.

 

[J-DONK]

"LOOK, Politico told me what to think and now I thunk it."

And here you are talking about talking points? Not to mention you are so self unaware that you are the one who brought up irony.

Incredible series of posts JDonk.

The article is talking about conservatives attacking the lockdown. It's a simple informative article. It's not an opinion piece, or propaganda like what you keep spewing in this thread. If you can't understand the difference, which you clearly can't. That's not my problem.

 

[J-DONK]

High COVID-19 Attack Rate Among Attendees at Events at a Church ...

On March 16, 2020, the day that national social distancing guidelines were released (1), the Arkansas Department of Health (ADH) was notified of two cases of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) ...

www.cdc.gov

Among 92 attendees at a rural Arkansas church during March 6–11, 35 (38%) developed laboratory-confirmed COVID-19, and three persons died. Highest attack rates were in persons aged 19–64 years (59%) and ≥65 years (50%). An additional 26 cases linked to the church occurred in the community, including one death.

I'm starting to lean towards church service being over the internet still, or at the very least be held out doors until their is a vaccine. I was also reminded of this one were 87% of the choir members became infected:

How coronavirus spread from one member to 87% of the singers at a Washington choir practice | CNN

Public health officials studying the Covid-19 outbreak among members of a Washington choir found numerous ways the virus could have spread, according to a report published by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

www.cnn.com

 

[Beach Friends]

The article is talking about conservatives attacking the lockdown. It's a simple informative article. It's not an opinion piece, or propaganda like what you keep spewing in this thread. If you can't understand the difference, which you clearly can't. That's not my problem.

I don't know why you would think I need to read a Politico article to know that, generally speaking, conservatives are in favor of ending the quarantine on healthy people and leftists are in favor of staying home.

I do have reason to believe that liberal women, who are often free spirits, are really tired of the government telling them what to do. (I am talking about the attractive kind with lots of ink, not the kind who drive those little cars with Bernie stickers). I have heard more than one say something like, "my body, my choice."

 

[The moose]

South Korean virus research gives us real hope for football with fans in the stands.

If you can't get sick with antibodies and can't get anyone else sick then why can't you be in the stands.

South Korean immunity research holds promise for the NFL

It's happening.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

 

[J-DONK]

South Korean virus research gives us real hope for football with fans in the stands.

If you can't get sick with antibodies and can't get anyone else sick then why can't you be in the stands.

South Korean immunity research holds promise for the NFL

It's happening.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

This would need a whole system setup though to work. You would need mass antibody test. Then you need a system setup with an ID of some sort. If we were going to do this, we would need to start working on it now.

My understanding is the league is preparing for no fans in the stadiums.

 

[wardorican]

Peer reviewed scientific paper on masks(respirators) from 2016.

States clearly that prolonged use of masks reduce oxygenation and also have deleterious effects.

Respirator masks protect health but impact performance: a review - PMC

Respiratory protective masks are used whenever it is too costly or impractical to remove airborne contamination from the atmosphere. Respirators are used in a wide range of occupations, form the military to medicine. Respirators have been found to ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here is another paper showing masks can be harmful to pregnant women.

Respiratory consequences of N95-type Mask usage in pregnant healthcare workers—a controlled clinical study - PMC

Outbreaks of emerging infectious diseases have led to guidelines recommending the routine use of N95 respirators for healthcare workers, many of whom are women of childbearing age. The respiratory effects of prolonged respirator use on pregnant ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I post these because with the debate about mandating people wear masks at all times becoming the recent topic of debate.
It seems much of the media has latched on to an ignorant social media post about hypercapnia, which is a form of carbon dioxide poisoning.
Some reports have even stated(completely contrary to papers above) that wearing surgical masks have no impact on blood cell oxygenation.

Snopes pretty much tries to say there is nothing to worry about and goes contrary to the papers stated above.

Is It Dangerous to Wear a COVID-19 Protective Mask for Too Long?

Prolonged usage of certain masks can cause some health concerns.

www.snopes.com

Here is a story about somebody passing out while driving... and yes I see a lot of people wearing their masks while driving.

Driver in crash may have passed out from wearing N95 mask too long: Police

Police said the driver is believed to have worn an N95 mask for too long before the crash.

abcnews.go.com

This is one of those things we have to think about before stating that everyone should wear masks.

Well, that's because surgical masks are not respirators or N95 masks.