All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (17 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[dtc]

And I'll add that unless I'm missing something (like the W.H.O. knowing that China was falsely reporting what's in that tweet), which is possible, the W.H.O. is really moreso guilty of repeating Chinese propaganda and giving it a larger platform than they are of lying.

Has "found no conclusive evidence" is not the same as "it's not happening."

 

[bdb13]

Has "found no conclusive evidence" is not the same as "it's not happening."

But it can be a misleading as shirt way to put it if you're pretty gosh darned sure it is occurring but want to obscure that.

 

[dtc]

But it can be a misleading as shirt way to put it if you're pretty gosh darned sure it is occurring but want to obscure that.

Sure, but it's not lying. And, for those who are calling it lying to demand they be defunded and blamed to not have a similar reaction to the words and deeds from the Trump Administration tell me I'm right.

 

[samiam5211]

From doing a little bit of research It seems like by January 14 there was already worry outside of China that they were lying about human-to-human transmission. Here the W.H.O. aided in spreading and promoting Chinese propaganda and I'm curious as to why they felt compelled to Tweet that out at that point in time. Seems a bit weird with the doubt that was apparently out there and certainly a bad thing to have allowed themselves to be used by China when the world needed better from the W.H.O.

People are saying that Trump was pressuring them to not do anything to screw up his tremendous trade deal.

 

[bdb13]

Sure, but it's not lying. And, for those who are calling it lying to demand they be defunded and blamed to not have a similar reaction to the words and deeds from the Trump Administration tell me I'm right.

I was spreaking more about China in that last post than the W.H.O., fwiw.

 

[bdb13]

People are saying that Trump was pressuring them to not do anything to screw up his tremendous trade deal.

A thought along those lines literally just occurred to me after I posted that lol.

It's plausible.

 

[Beach Friends]

I was going to say something similar. If the WHO needs to fire people because they backed China's line, do we need to do the same to people in our administration who praised China for their help and transparency?

Oh man, that would have been a good one. We need more whataboutrumpisms around here.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Oh man, that would have been a good one. We need more whataboutrumpisms around here.

Just trying to figure your out your logic on defunding the WHO. You said we need to defund them until they clean out the administrators who backed China. Do we need to do the same thing for our administrators who backed China? Why or why not?

 

[Beach Friends]

Just trying to figure your out your logic on defunding the WHO. You said we need to defund them until they clean out the administrators who backed China. Do we need to do the same thing for our administrators who backed China? Why or why not?

And what I am saying is that this deal with not being able to discuss anything without a whatabouttrump is making the MCB tiresome. Really, I called you on it because you are one of the ones who make posting here worthwhile.

Being on the other side of the fence you may not notice it as much. Scan just about any thread with that in mind and you will see what I mean.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

And what I am saying is that this deal with not being able to discuss anything without a whatabouttrump is making the MCB tiresome. Really, I called you on it because you are one of the ones who make posting here worthwhile.

Being on the other side of the fence you may not notice it as much. Scan just about any thread with that in mind and you will see what I mean.

I've just learned to accept whataboutism... it's my least hated logical fallacy b/c it can be used to see if your own positions are logically consistent.

For example, in this example... I don't think either the WHO nor Trump should get fired (or defunded) for publicly backing China's positions on COVID-19 in January. I'm more interested to see how quickly they changed their statements as more data became available, what their recommendations to the public, and when.

I'm not upset with people for making mistakes, I want to know if they learn from them and correct, and how quickly they do that.

Now going back to your stance, are you contending that the WHO knew that China was lying and publicly pushed that lie? I haven't seen evidence of that.

Basically, are you holding the WHO to a standard that you aren't willing to hold the United States government to?

 

[Beach Friends]

I've just learned to accept whataboutism... it's my least hated logical fallacy b/c it can be used to see if your own positions are logically consistent.

For example, in this example... I don't think either the WHO nor Trump should get fired (or defunded) for publicly backing China's positions on COVID-19 in January. I'm more interested to see how quickly they changed their statements as more data became available, what their recommendations to the public, and when.

I'm not upset with people for making mistakes, I want to know if they learn from them and correct, and how quickly they do that.

Now going back to your stance, are you contending that the WHO knew that China was lying and publicly pushed that lie? I haven't seen evidence of that.

Basically, are you holding the WHO to a standard that you aren't willing to hold the United States government to?

Yes, that is what I am saying. It's not surprising, the chairman of the WHO was known for covering up cholera outbreaks when he was in the Ethiopian government.

I posted an interview with a WHO official here a while back where the official first pretended that he did not hear a question about Taiwan and then when the interviewer said, "well let me repeat it," he responded, "no, let's just go on to another question."

The organization ignored warnings from Taiwan. This game they are playing about pretending Taiwan is not an independent state in order to satisfy the CCP isn't a lot of fun when it means they are neglecting their responsibilities.

Rather than just reflexively turning the conversation to whatabouttrump, it seems like we can give some actual consideration to whether this organization is worth it. Not just in terms of money - which they squander on accommodations for their staff rather on disease control. More importantly, the opportunity cost of having them pretend to perform a vital function they are not actually performing.

 

[dtc]

I've just learned to accept whataboutism... it's my least hated logical fallacy b/c it can be used to see if your own positions are logically consistent.

For example, in this example... I don't think either the WHO nor Trump should get fired (or defunded) for publicly backing China's positions on COVID-19 in January. I'm more interested to see how quickly they changed their statements as more data became available, what their recommendations to the public, and when.

I'm not upset with people for making mistakes, I want to know if they learn from them and correct, and how quickly they do that.

Now going back to your stance, are you contending that the WHO knew that China was lying and publicly pushed that lie? I haven't seen evidence of that.

Basically, are you holding the WHO to a standard that you aren't willing to hold the United States government to?

Great post, but WHO didn't "back China's positions."

They reported what they had been told. They reported it as Dad would have done with a proper disclaimer.

And, I will again point out that the United States depends on our POTUS and our Government to lead and protect us. We spend a tremendous amount on the greatest intelligence apparatus the world has ever known so the excuse that "china misled us" is bunk. It's unintelligible garbage meant solely to prevent the blame from landing in the tiny hands of one Donald Trump.

POTUS doesn't get to make the excuse that China lied to us. It's his job to pay attention to the intelligence he's being given and verify.

I think it was Bush who said we should "Trust, but verify" and he was right.

Beach, how do you have such a problem with whataboutisms when those are the favored tactic of President Trump?

 

[dtc]

Yes, that is what I am saying. It's not surprising, the chairman of the WHO was known for covering up cholera outbreaks when he was in the Ethiopian government.

I posted an interview with a WHO official here a while back where the official first pretended that he did not hear a question about Taiwan and then when the interviewer said, "well let me repeat it," he responded, "no, let's just go on to another question."

The organization ignored warnings from Taiwan. This game they are playing about pretending Taiwan is not an independent state in order to satisfy the CCP isn't a lot of fun when it means they are neglecting their responsibilities.

Rather than just reflexively turning the conversation to whatabouttrump, it seems like we can give some actual consideration to whether this organization is worth it. Not just in terms of money - which they squander on accommodations for their staff rather on disease control. More importantly, the opportunity cost of having them pretend to perform a vital function they are not actually performing.

Ok, I agree. Let's kill them all. They screwed up. Americans are dying and our economy is in tatters.

Do we also get to share some blame on the guy in the big white house who was told repeatedly by his own staff, intelligence apparatus and others that this was coming? Or, do we have to accept that he's so freaking stupid that he only heard what WHO or China said?

And, what about all that China trade deal talk that tells us Trump was more interested in brokering a big trade deal and ending his silly trade war than doing the job he was sworn to do?

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Yes, that is what I am saying. It's not surprising, the chairman of the WHO was known for covering up cholera outbreaks when he was in the Ethiopian government.

I posted an interview with a WHO official here a while back where the official first pretended that he did not hear a question about Taiwan and then when the interviewer said, "well let me repeat it," he responded, "no, let's just go on to another question."

The organization ignored warnings from Taiwan. This game they are playing about pretending Taiwan is not an independent state in order to satisfy the CCP isn't a lot of fun when it means they are neglecting their responsibilities.

Rather than just reflexively turning the conversation to whatabouttrump, it seems like we can give some actual consideration to whether this organization is worth it. Not just in terms of money - which they squander on accommodations for their staff rather on disease control. More importantly, the opportunity cost of having them pretend to perform a vital function they are not actually performing.

Well, Trump does tend to suck all the air out of the room b/c he's loud, abrasive, there's always a quote from him directly, and so on. He seems just objectively to be a terrible person and not very competent at anything other than marketing. And he's also the person we have the most direct control over. Every single person here has a vote for the President. I don't have a vote in NY, so while AOC might say something stupid, she also doesn't represent me the way the President does.... and so on.

It's going to be that way until he leaves office, and then we can focus on criticizing the next guy. That's what Americans should do... hold our elected representatives to task, and criticize them when they screw up. And push to vote them out if they don't seem like they can learn from their mistakes.

But as far as the WHO, I guess I'd feel better about the discussion if I believed it was an honest discussion instead of a way to deflect blame.

I went through the timeline of their statements, and it seems like the did have people saying that human to human transmission was possible as early as January 14th. It was said publicly in a press conference, so it's not like they were covering it up.

So, as far as your evidence goes, what do you have that shows the WHO knew China was deliberately lying and then knowingly passed on those lies.

 

[Dadsdream]

the spokesperson from the IRS

spokeswoman from the Treasury

 

[samiam5211]

If only the United States had placed a a team in Wuhan that specialized in infectious disease That would have already been there when the outbreak started to see what was really going on...

I guess hindsight is 20/20 and no one could have seen this coming.

Yes, I am blaming Trump for removing our team from Wuhan 6 months ago.

 

[Beach Friends]

Ok, I agree. Let's kill them all. They screwed up. Americans are dying and our economy is in tatters.

Do we also get to share some blame on the guy in the big white house who was told repeatedly by his own staff, intelligence apparatus and others that this was coming? Or, do we have to accept that he's so freaking stupid that he only heard what WHO or China said?

And, what about all that China trade deal talk that tells us Trump was more interested in brokering a big trade deal and ending his silly trade war than doing the job he was sworn to do?

That was a nice tantrum.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

From doing a little bit of research It seems like by January 14 there was already worry outside of China that they were lying about human-to-human transmission. Here the W.H.O. aided in spreading and promoting Chinese propaganda and I'm curious as to why they felt compelled to Tweet that out at that point in time. Seems a bit weird with the doubt that was apparently out there and certainly a bad thing to have allowed themselves to be used by China when the world needed better from the W.H.O.

I’m curious where you are getting your timeline?

Because by January 22 the WHO was holding daily briefings emphasizing the risk of spread across the world. And as others have said, WHO is only allowed to go where they are invited, can only go off information they are given. I’m not gonna say their positions were always 100% correct, but there is ultimately no basis for this other than the obvious, which is Trump attempting to blame shift. And if we are criticizing WHO for not publicly calling out China or because they should have known better to trust them, that kind of also opens the door to having to call us out as well, since we also made a mockery early in the process. But I am guessing Trump wouldnot be too cool with WHO holding conferences to say the American response has been an utter failure and Trump is lying to the public.

As an Ironic side note, the period being used toward this fodder was at the same time Trump was praising China for having gotten the virus under control because China told him so.