All Things LGBTQ+ (8 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[Optimus Prime]

plus lets not forgot the average lifespan of transgender people is around 45. so just let them die I guess.

I’ve never heard that

Where did that number come from?

 

[LA - L.A.]

VATICAN CITY (AP) — The Vatican on Monday declared gender-affirming surgery and surrogacy as grave threats to human dignity, putting them on par with abortion and euthanasia as practices that violate God’s plan for human life.

The Vatican’s doctrine office issued “Infinite Dignity,” a 20-page declaration that has been in the works for five years. After substantial revision in recent months, it was approved March 25 by Pope Francis, who ordered its publication.

In its most eagerly anticipated section, the Vatican repeated its rejection of “gender theory” or the idea that one’s gender can be changed. It said God created man and woman as biologically different, separate beings, and said they must not tinker with that plan or try to “make oneself God.”

“It follows that any sex-change intervention, as a rule, risks threatening the unique dignity the person has received from the moment of conception,” the document said.

It distinguished between gender-affirming surgeries, which it rejected, and “genital abnormalities” that are present at birth or that develop later. Those abnormalities can be “resolved” with the help of health care professionals, it said.

The document’s existence, rumored since 2019, was confirmed in recent weeks by the new prefect of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, Argentine Cardinal Víctor Manuel Fernández, a close Pope Francis confidante.

He had cast it as something of a nod to conservatives after he authored a more explosive document approving blessings for same-sex couples that sparked criticism from conservative bishops around the world, especially in Africa.…..

Vatican blasts gender-affirming surgery, surrogacy and gender theory as violations of human dignity

The Vatican’s doctrine office issued “Infinite Dignity,” a declaration in the works for five years. The Vatican’s doctrine office issued “Infinite Dignity,” a 20-page declaration that has been in the works for five years. After substantial revision in recent months, it was approved March 25 by...

apnews.com

It's absurd that their reasoning for opposing gender-affirming care is that "god doesn't make mistakes", but then go on to carve out an exception for "genital abnormalities" because of course "god makes mistakes". The faulty and hypocritical logic never ends. Just say you don't want LGBTQI+ people among your followers and stop persecuting us at every freaking turn. No need to make our lives more challenging with BS doctrine.

If they honestly believed "god doesn't make mistakes" and everyone is born physically exactly as god intended them to be and man should not make any alterations to god's perfect physical plan for each human, then it follows that "god's plan" for people who are born transgender is for them to suffer through feeling like outsiders in their own bodies. Great fornicating plan, god.

Additionally, no more procedures to correct cleft lip, cleft palate, spina bifida, and all of the genetic and congenital biological variations that children are born with that we medically alter to give comfort to the human born with them.

While we're at it, it's obviously "god's plan" that some of us should suffer from genetic diseases that manifest later in life, so no more medical intervention for those. We might as well add cancer to the list, because obviously it was "god's plan" that we get cancer and we shouldn't do anything to interfere with that part of god's plan either.

It's absolutely absurd that anyone would believe that a loving god would be opposed to any medical intervention that would give comfort to human beings.

It's even more absurd that anyone would willing obey any gods that are opposed to giving comfort to anyone. Screw those gods and the horses they rode in on.

There's a reason so many people refer to themselves as "god fearing."

 

[fooferdoggie]

I’ve never heard that

Where did that number come from?

I was listening to a podcast about the statistics. I can't find the exact info but the studies have shown that transitioning really cuts down the suicide rate. but some studies don't count teens.

 

[Farb]

https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/

Overview of key findings​

• There is no simple explanation for the increase in the numbers of predominantly young people and young adults who have a trans or gender diverse identity, but there is broad agreement that it is a result of a complex interplay between biological, psychological and social factors. This balance of factors will be different in each individual.
• There are conflicting views about the clinical approach, with expectations of care at times being far from usual clinical practice. This has made some clinicians fearful of working with gender-questioning young people, despite their presentation being similar to many children and young people presenting to other NHS services.
• An appraisal of international guidelines for care and treatment of children and young people with gender incongruence found that that no single guideline could be applied in its entirety to the NHS in England.
• While a considerable amount of research has been published in this field, systematic evidence reviews demonstrated the poor quality of the published studies, meaning there is not a reliable evidence base upon which to make clinical decisions, or for children and their families to make informed choices.
• The strengths and weaknesses of the evidence base on the care of children and young people are often misrepresented and overstated, both in scientific publications and social debate.
• The controversy surrounding the use of medical treatments has taken focus away from what the individualised care and treatment is intended to achieve for individuals seeking support from NHS gender services.
• The rationale for early puberty suppression remains unclear, with weak evidence regarding the impact on gender dysphoria, mental or psychosocial health. The effect on cognitive and psychosexual development remains unknown.
• The use of masculinising / feminising hormones in those under the age of 18 also presents many unknowns, despite their longstanding use in the adult transgender population. The lack of long-term follow-up data on those commencing treatment at an earlier age means we have inadequate information about the range of outcomes for this group.
• Clinicians are unable to determine with any certainty which children and young people will go on to have an enduring trans identity.
• For most young people, a medical pathway will not be the best way to manage their gender-related distress. For those young people for whom a medical pathway is clinically indicated, it is not enough to provide this without also addressing wider mental health and/or psychosocially challenging problems.
• Innovation is important if medicine is to move forward, but there must be a proportionate level of monitoring, oversight and regulation that does not stifle progress, while preventing creep of unproven approaches into clinical practice. Innovation must draw from and contribute to the evidence base.

 

[Optimus Prime]

interesting read
============
..........Around the world, major religions have diverse approaches to gender identity, and the inclusion or exclusion of transgender people.

Here are examples from some religions:

Christianity​

The Catholic Church’s disapproving stance toward gender transition is shared by some other denominations. For example, the Southern Baptist Convention - the largest Protestant denomination in the United States - adopted a resolution in 2014 stating that “God’s design was the creation of two distinct and complementary sexes, male and female.” It asserts that gender identity “is determined by biological sex, not by one’s self-perception”

However, numerous mainline Protestant denominations welcome trans people as members and as clergy. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America elected an openly transgender man as a bishop in 2021...........

Islam​

In Islam, there isn’t a single central religious authority and policies can vary in different regions.

Abbas Shouman, secretary-general of Al-Azhar’s Council of Senior Scholars in Cairo, said that “for us, ... sex conversion is completely rejected.”

“It is God who has determined the ... sex of the fetus and intervening to change that is a change of God’s creation, which is completely rejected,” Shouman added.

In Iran, the Shiite theocracy’s founder, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, issued a religious decree, or fatwa, decades ago, opening the way for official support for gender transition surgery.

Hinduism​

In Hindu society in South Asia, while traditional roles were and are still prescribed for men and women, people of non-binary gender expression have been recognized for millennia and played important roles in holy texts.

Third gender people have been revered throughout South Asian history with many rising to significant positions of power under Hindu and Muslim rulers. One survey in 2014 estimated that around 3 million third gender people live in India alone............

Buddhism​

Buddhism has traditionally adhered to binary gender roles, particularly in its monastic traditions where men and women are segregated and assigned specific roles.

These beliefs remain strong in the Theravada tradition, as seen in the attempt of the Thai Sangha Council, the governing Buddhist body in Thailand, to ban ordinations of transgender people. More recently, the Theravada tradition has somewhat eased restrictions against gender nonconforming people by ordaining them in their sex recorded at birth.

However, the Mahayana, and Vajrayana schools of Buddhism have allowed more exceptions while the Jodo Shinshu sect has been even more inclusive in ordaining transgender monks both in Japan and North America. In Tibetan Buddhism, Tashi Choedup, an openly queer monk, was ordained after their teacher refrained from asking about their gender identity as prescribed by Buddhist doctrine. Many Buddhist denominations, particularly in the West, are intentionally inclusive of transgender people in their sanghas or gatherings.

Judaism​

Reform Judaism is accepting of transgender people and allows for the ordination of trans rabbis. According to David J. Meyer, who served for many years as a rabbi in Marblehead, Massachusetts, Jewish traditional wisdom allowed possibilities of gender identity and expression that differed from those typically associated with the sex assigned at birth.

“Our mystical texts, the Kabbalah, address the notion of transitioning from one gender to another,” he wrote on a Reform-affiliated website.

It’s different, for the most part, in Orthodox Judaism. “Most transgender people will find Orthodox communities extremely difficult to navigate,” says the Human Rights Campaign, a major U.S. LGBTQ-rights advocacy group...........

How major religions take very different stances on trans people and gender identity

Pope Francis repeated the Vatican’s rejection of ‘gender theory’ this week

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Farb]

Those points are on topic; you're attempting to present this as a moral issue ("Won't someone please think of the children?!?!"), but points like that show that you're entirely inconsistent on those morals, hence, you are unable to establish this as a genuine moral issue, because you appear to not actually hold those morals.

As for your daughter, if you can bring up an imaginary daughter when objecting to her possibly using the same changing room as a transgender woman, it seems entirely reasonably for someone to ask what you'd tell them about your supporting a rapist.

When did I ever say I had a daughter? But lets play along.

In regards to my daughter and the moral question, do you think there should be a law that establishes sexual consent or do you also leave that up to those involved since 'morally' it is no one business?

 

[RobF]

When did I ever say I had a daughter?

Just don't ask me to let my daughter change in the same room as Bob

But lets play along.

Sorry, but no, I have no interest in playing with you whatsoever.

 

[MT15]

https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/

Overview of key findings​

• There is no simple explanation for the increase in the numbers of predominantly young people and young adults who have a trans or gender diverse identity, but there is broad agreement that it is a result of a complex interplay between biological, psychological and social factors. This balance of factors will be different in each individual.
• There are conflicting views about the clinical approach, with expectations of care at times being far from usual clinical practice. This has made some clinicians fearful of working with gender-questioning young people, despite their presentation being similar to many children and young people presenting to other NHS services.
• An appraisal of international guidelines for care and treatment of children and young people with gender incongruence found that that no single guideline could be applied in its entirety to the NHS in England.
• While a considerable amount of research has been published in this field, systematic evidence reviews demonstrated the poor quality of the published studies, meaning there is not a reliable evidence base upon which to make clinical decisions, or for children and their families to make informed choices.
• The strengths and weaknesses of the evidence base on the care of children and young people are often misrepresented and overstated, both in scientific publications and social debate.
• The controversy surrounding the use of medical treatments has taken focus away from what the individualised care and treatment is intended to achieve for individuals seeking support from NHS gender services.
• The rationale for early puberty suppression remains unclear, with weak evidence regarding the impact on gender dysphoria, mental or psychosocial health. The effect on cognitive and psychosexual development remains unknown.
• The use of masculinising / feminising hormones in those under the age of 18 also presents many unknowns, despite their longstanding use in the adult transgender population. The lack of long-term follow-up data on those commencing treatment at an earlier age means we have inadequate information about the range of outcomes for this group.
• Clinicians are unable to determine with any certainty which children and young people will go on to have an enduring trans identity.
• For most young people, a medical pathway will not be the best way to manage their gender-related distress. For those young people for whom a medical pathway is clinically indicated, it is not enough to provide this without also addressing wider mental health and/or psychosocially challenging problems.
• Innovation is important if medicine is to move forward, but there must be a proportionate level of monitoring, oversight and regulation that does not stifle progress, while preventing creep of unproven approaches into clinical practice. Innovation must draw from and contribute to the evidence base.

This seems fairly obvious to me for the most part, although it could be biased a bit. Hard to tell. Most young people probably don’t need medical intervention. It should be a decision for clinicians, parents and patients to make on an individual basis.

Every clinical program in the US provides counseling before any medical interventions and after. So that is already the standard of care in the US.

Outright bans of medical protocols that help some individuals are cruel and pointless, especially when put in place by politicians who don’t know anything about anything in these cases. Government should refrain from being overly involved in medical decision-making. Imagine politicians trying to decide which cardiac patients need a bypass, or more accurately saying cardiac bypasses are banned. Professional organizations are capable of oversight, and if any government involvement is needed it can come from the FDA, NIH, or some other agency with doctors and scientists who know what they are talking about.

The last people who need to be in charge of medical standards and practices are religious zealots. Followed closely by politicians.

 

[MT15]

This is a joke, just a little levity…

 

[samiam5211]

When did I ever say I had a daughter? But lets play along.

In regards to my daughter and the moral question, do you think there should be a law that establishes sexual consent or do you also leave that up to those involved since 'morally' it is no one business?

There really isn't anything regulating the ability of a child to consent to sex.

Two 13 year olds can decide to have sex, and it isn't illegal.

The law punishes an adult for having sex with the 13 year old, not the 13 year old.

 

[Optimus Prime]

JK Rowling says Daniel Radcliffe and Emma Watson can ‘save their apologies’

Author has suggested she won’t 'forgive' actors for questioning her trans views

www.independent.co.uk

 

[SystemShock]

Just say you don't want LGBTQI+ people among your followers and stop persecuting us at every freaking turn.

They've been saying that for 1000's of years. They have used the same logic for 1000's of years. But, they keep trying to shoehorn their ancient myth into modern societies. And for whatever reason, the people who are considered aberrations worthy only of death by stoning continue to want to be part of it.

And indeed God doesn't make mistakes. It's either Satan, or our wickedness, or our free will, that causes imperfection.

 

[Optimus Prime]

It's absurd that their reasoning for opposing gender-affirming care is that "god doesn't make mistakes", but then go on to carve out an exception for "genital abnormalities" because of course "god makes mistakes". The faulty and hypocritical logic never ends. Just say you don't want LGBTQI+ people among your followers and stop persecuting us at every freaking turn. No need to make our lives more challenging with BS doctrine.

So, what is the line, or who decides what exactly is or isn't God's will?

In this case, God doesn't make mistakes. He meant men to be men and women to be women. So, therefore gender reassignment surgery is an abomination going against God's will

God doesn't make mistakes. He meant some women to have small boobs and some people to have potato-like noses. So, therefore plastic surgery is an abomination going against God's will is an argument I have never heard anyone make.

 

[Optimus Prime]

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Tennessee would join the ranks of states where public school employees have to out transgender students to their parents under a bill advancing in the Republican-supermajority Legislature.

GOP House lawmakers gave near-final passage to the bill on Monday, putting Tennessee just a few hurdles away from joining states such as Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Indiana and North Carolina with similar laws. Virginia has such guidance for school boards, as well. The bill goes back for another vote in the Senate, which had already passed a version of it, before it can go to Gov. Bill Lee's desk for his signature.

The bill's progression comes as Tennessee Republican lawmakers have established the state as one of the most eager to pass policies aimed at the LGBTQ+ community as Republicans pursue legislation nationwide.

During Monday's limited but heated House floor hearing, Democrats took turns alleging that their Republican colleagues were constantly finding new ways to bully LGBTQ+ kids.

“These are the most vulnerable kids in our state who are just trying to make it out of middle school alive,” said Democratic Rep. Aftyn Behn. “And we are weaponizing their identities instead of actually passing bills that help Tennesseans.”

Audible gasps could be heard from the public galleries when the bill's sponsor, Republican Rep. Mary Littleton, argued that the legislation was needed so parents could know if their student would need therapy.

“I feel like the parents, they have the right to know what’s happening in the school with their children,” Littleton said. “And I also think that possibly they could get that child some therapy that could help them solve their problems and make their way through school.”

Littleton also confirmed she did not speak to any transgender students before introducing the proposal but said some teachers had told her that they did not want the responsibility of having such information.

According to the legislation that passed Monday, school employees would be required to pass on information about a student to an administrator, who would have to tell the parent. That includes a student asking for action to affirm their gender identity, such as using a different name or pronoun...........

Tennessee schools would have to out transgender students to parents under bill heading to governor

Tennessee would join the ranks of states where public school employees have to out transgender students to their parents under a bill advancing in the Republican-supermajority Legislature.

apnews.com

 

[Taurus]

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Tennessee would join the ranks of states where public school employees have to out transgender students to their parents under a bill advancing in the Republican-supermajority Legislature.

GOP House lawmakers gave near-final passage to the bill on Monday, putting Tennessee just a few hurdles away from joining states such as Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Indiana and North Carolina with similar laws. Virginia has such guidance for school boards, as well. The bill goes back for another vote in the Senate, which had already passed a version of it, before it can go to Gov. Bill Lee's desk for his signature.

The bill's progression comes as Tennessee Republican lawmakers have established the state as one of the most eager to pass policies aimed at the LGBTQ+ community as Republicans pursue legislation nationwide.

During Monday's limited but heated House floor hearing, Democrats took turns alleging that their Republican colleagues were constantly finding new ways to bully LGBTQ+ kids.

“These are the most vulnerable kids in our state who are just trying to make it out of middle school alive,” said Democratic Rep. Aftyn Behn. “And we are weaponizing their identities instead of actually passing bills that help Tennesseans.”

Audible gasps could be heard from the public galleries when the bill's sponsor, Republican Rep. Mary Littleton, argued that the legislation was needed so parents could know if their student would need therapy.

“I feel like the parents, they have the right to know what’s happening in the school with their children,” Littleton said. “And I also think that possibly they could get that child some therapy that could help them solve their problems and make their way through school.”

Littleton also confirmed she did not speak to any transgender students before introducing the proposal but said some teachers had told her that they did not want the responsibility of having such information.

According to the legislation that passed Monday, school employees would be required to pass on information about a student to an administrator, who would have to tell the parent. That includes a student asking for action to affirm their gender identity, such as using a different name or pronoun...........

Tennessee schools would have to out transgender students to parents under bill heading to governor

Tennessee would join the ranks of states where public school employees have to out transgender students to their parents under a bill advancing in the Republican-supermajority Legislature.

apnews.com

Sure, Mary.

You do know the kids whose parents would give them therapy instead of a beating are already out to said parents. Did you ever think that maybe the parents don't know because the kid doesn't want them to?

 

[Farb]

Sorry, but no, I have no interest in playing with you whatsoever.

Awesome, next week we can have you work on how to spell hypothetical.

 

[Farb]

This seems fairly obvious to me for the most part, although it could be biased a bit. Hard to tell. Most young people probably don’t need medical intervention. It should be a decision for clinicians, parents and patients to make on an individual basis.

Every clinical program in the US provides counseling before any medical interventions and after. So that is already the standard of care in the US.

Outright bans of medical protocols that help some individuals are cruel and pointless, especially when put in place by politicians who don’t know anything about anything in these cases. Government should refrain from being overly involved in medical decision-making. Imagine politicians trying to decide which cardiac patients need a bypass, or more accurately saying cardiac bypasses are banned. Professional organizations are capable of oversight, and if any government involvement is needed it can come from the FDA, NIH, or some other agency with doctors and scientists who know what they are talking about.

The last people who need to be in charge of medical standards and practices are religious zealots. Followed closely by politicians.

So you think there should be no bans on medical protocols for minors at all?

Do you think if a person presents with an eating disorder like Anorexia, the medical field should 'affirm' the mental illness by providing a diet, counseling and drugs to help that patient lose more weight in an effort to relieve the body dysmorphia?

 

[Farb]

Sure, Mary.

You do know the kids whose parents would give them therapy instead of a beating are already out to said parents. Did you ever think that maybe the parents don't know because the kid doesn't want them to?

Those are the only options, acceptance or beatings?