All Things LGBTQ+ (9 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[SystemShock]

You said "If you have any proof of a male/female of the species transforming into a female/male of the species, by all means, present it. Otherwise stop giving me the same run-around everyone else gives me because you cannot even bring yourself to agree with a fact which is demonstrably true."

Male Lactation is a fascinating topic which I looked up after having seen a drop of liquid kind of resembling milk ooze out of me in the middle of the night when my daughter was but an infant and my wife was too tired to be awakened yet again that night. I was feeling some anguish over the situation as I tried to comfort my daughter while protecting my wife who needed sleep so bad that she didn't wake up.

Charles Darwin "commented on it in The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex (1871):"



"Darwin later considered the nearly perfect function of male nipples in contrast to greatly reduced structures such as the vesicula prostatica, speculating that both sexes may have nursed young in early mammalian ancestors, and subsequently mammals evolved to inactivate them in males at an early age."

Male lactation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are documented cases of men having provided for their children in a maternal sense when their wives were very sick or had died. Apparently strong emotions for the survival of their child can trigger hormones within a male which will activate the mammary glands they do possess.

Simply put a significant part of every man is a woman, and a significant part of every woman is a man. It is amazing what hormones can do to adjust that balance.

Male lactation is not a fascinating topic to me, or new to me for that matter, but in any case, male lactation still doesn't make males of the species transform into females of the species.

What's the purpose of bringing up Darwin? That evolution changes organisms? Sure it does, but the phrase "early mammalian ancestors" should have given you a clue that evolution is not germane to this discussion: an individual cannot evolve from male of the species to female of the species and vise versa.

 

[coldseat]

And no, it doesn't have to be a binary solution. The solution to me is simply trans divisions: male, female, trans male, trans female. Ironically, the people who champion 100% everything LGBTQ+ and gender spectrums insist on the binary model as well when it comes to sports.

The problem isn't that. The problem is that there aren't enough trans athletes to make that feasible in any sport. So you end up with the solutions either being you include trans people in some way, shape or form in the sports according to their gender, or you force them to compete in sports opposite that of their gender and essentially lock them out of sports all together. The latter being the option that many conservative states are now taking.

 

[MT15]

This is the kind of bull crap people are spreading.

 

[SystemShock]

The problem isn't that. The problem is that there aren't enough trans athletes to make that feasible in any sport.

That's not a problem with people with other physiological conditions. Why is it a problem with trans people?

Also, I'd think that creating such leagues wouldn't attract more transgender people into sports, and even create an environment that would be more conducive of acceptance?

So you end up with the solutions either being you include trans people in some way, shape or form in the sports according to their gender, or you force them to compete in sports opposite that of their gender and essentially lock them out of sports all together. The latter being the option that many conservative states are now taking.

And yet again, division in sports are not based on gender.

This idea that they'd be locked out of sports altogether is a straw man... there are plenty of co-ed/for fun leagues out there where they can play.

Last thing, you say "trans people". All the discussions I have had, all the comments I've made, revolve around female sports exclusively. Transmen aren't really an issue, because they overwhelmingly put themselves at a disadvantage, although there is something to be said about allowing some people to use/abuse steroids to gain a competitive edge and no others.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

This is the kind of bull crap people are spreading.

Lieutenant Governor of Virginia with her AR15. When was the last time a drag queen killed three 9-year-olds?

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Tell that to people like Hannah Arensman.

The cyclist that retired? Not sure this is the argument you think it is.

There was one rider, a trans woman, that should have been disqualified for their conduct from what I saw, but that doesn't change the fact that 1 and 2 in that race went to cis women. She didn't lose because she was racing against transwomen. She missed the podium by one spot because the person that finished third seemed to have it out for her and physically hampered her ability to race. If that person had been DQed for their actions, the entire podium would have been cis women.

 

[SamAndreas]

Male lactation is not a fascinating topic to me, or new to me for that matter, but in any case, male lactation still doesn't make males of the species transform into females of the species.

What's the purpose of bringing up Darwin? That evolution changes organisms? Sure it does, but the phrase "early mammalian ancestors" should have given you a clue that evolution is not germane to this discussion: an individual cannot evolve from male of the species to female of the species and vise versa.

Your issue is what is not germane, it's a false wedge issue drummed up from a few isolated cases to further a homophobic cause.

Millions of kids across America participate in school sports. Every year an insignificant handful few of them are large accomplished transwomen athletes who are featured in the news and such to drum up a great to do about how simply awful it is for the "normal" women. Unfair. Something simply must be done about it, NOW!

Suppose homophobic's do prevail and pass laws to stamp this injustice out. They will be overlooking a significant many thousands of smaller transwomen who will be cut off from sports to remedy what is a contrived injustice. The solution creates a much greater injustice which will be visited up on all of the transwomen by imposing an across the board ban on transwomen in women's sports.



All of that being done whilst ignoring entirely the fact that there are giants amoung us who for years have been hogging all the top spots of fame and glory in school sports. No one's talking about doing anything about them, and unlike the transwomen there are a fair number of those giants in every school all across America. They dominate sports.



Why is no one doing anything at all about those giants amoung us to solve this significant unfairness in both men's and women's sports? Are we going to ban giants from sports in the name of just fairness too?

So if you get my sarcasm about giants, I think you're making a great to do, and mistake, about what's an insignificant issue which has been drummed up by people who's underlying goal is to discriminate unfairly against others. I realize you may not be aware of what you appear to be doing. I'm not calling you homophobic. I think you've been duped by others who are homophobic.

They appear to be using you.

 

[SystemShock]

Happens every day 100s of thousands of times.

All human individuals—whether they have an XX, an XY, or an atypical sex chromosome combination—begin development from the same starting point. During early development the gonads of the fetus remain undifferentiated; that is, all fetal genitalia are the same and are phenotypically female.

Nature is female by default. We know this. But more dishonesty... I thought it was obvious that were talking about developed individuals, not fetuses. Fetuses don't play sports, or declare their gender. I may bring this to the abortion thread, though

But, hey, even if I were to grant you that (which I am not), you still are short a male to female conversion, fetal or otherwise.

 

[SystemShock]

The cyclist that retired? Not sure this is the argument you think it is.

There was one rider, a trans woman, that should have been disqualified for their conduct from what I saw, but that doesn't change the fact that 1 and 2 in that race went to cis women. She didn't lose because she was racing against transwomen. She missed the podium by one spot because the person that finished third seemed to have it out for her and physically hampered her ability to race. If that person had been DQed for their actions, the entire podium would have been cis women.

That's not an argument. Arguments have defined structures.

There's more to it that the result of that one race, although there is something to be said about transwomen becoming that good that fast that they are competing in elite divisions, with 2 placing in the top 5, and one overpowering a female. If you read the NYP article, you should've noticed Tiffany Thomas as well, who at 42, started bicycle racing, and has won 20 races already.

But hey, who cares about the females, right? They all are probably white anyway.

 

[SystemShock]

Your issue is what is not germane, it's a false wedge issue drummed up from a few isolated cases to further a homophobic cause.

Is it now? We have no sports divisions based on biology/physiology? Who knew.

Millions of kids across America participate in school sports. Every year an insignificant handful few of them are large accomplished transwomen athletes who are featured in the news and such to drum up a great to do about how simply awful it is for the "normal" women. Unfair. Something simply must be done about it, NOW!

Millions of kids don't compete for scholarships. Just a handful

Suppose homophobic's do prevail and pass laws to stamp this injustice out. They will be overlooking a significant many thousands of smaller transwomen who will be cut off from sports to remedy what is a contrived injustice. The solution creates a much greater injustice which will be visited up on all of the transwomen by imposing an across the board ban on transwomen in women's sports.

Again, trans divisions will solve that. And there are for-fun leagues, co-ed leagues...

All of that being done whilst ignoring entirely the fact that there are giants amoung us who for years have been hogging all the top spots of fame and glory in school sports. No one's talking about doing anything about them, and unlike the transwomen there are a fair number of those giants in every school all across America. They dominate sports.

Giants? Maybe in football and basketball... but not other sports.

So if you get my sarcasm about giants,

sarcasm is a friend of mine... that's not sarcasm.

I think you're making a great to do, and mistake, about what's an insignificant issue which has been drummed up by people who's underlying goal is to discriminate unfairly against others. I realize you may not be aware of what you appear to be doing. I'm not calling you homophobic. I think you've been duped by others who are homophobic.

They appear to be using you.

No one is using me, but thank you for your concern.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Nature is female by default. We know this. But more dishonesty... I thought it was obvious that were talking about developed individuals, not fetuses. Fetuses don't play sports, or declare their gender. I may bring this to the abortion thread, though

But, hey, even if I were to grant you that (which I am not), you still are short a male to female conversion, fetal or otherwise.

Look, I understand your point. Iga Swiatek shouldn't have to play Novak Djokovic with long hair. It's not fair. But, we can work this out so that trans men and women can compete in athletics against the gender they identify with much of the time if they want.

 

[brandon]

an individual cannot evolve from male of the species to female of the species and vise versa.

There are definitely organisms in nature that change from male to female and back again, depending on life cycle and/or environmental pressures. I’m not sure if you were just specifying humans here, but it definitely happens for other organisms.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

That's not an argument. Arguments have defined structures.

Sorry. I'll call it a 'piss-poor attempt at a gotcha' next time if it makes you feel better.

There's more to it that the result of that one race, although there is something to be said about transwomen becoming that good that fast that they are competing in elite divisions, with 2 placing in the top 5, and one overpowering a female.

One of them physically interfered with a cis woman. That's not a trans issue. That's an butt crevasse issue. And you again ignore the fact (much like you did with Lia Thomas) that these women speaking out about the unfairness of it all also lost to cis women that beat the trans women.

If you read the NYP article, you should've noticed Tiffany Thomas as well, who at 42, started bicycle racing, and has won 20 races already.

What NYP article?

But hey, who cares about the females, right? They all are probably white anyway.

You're clutching those pearls so hard that I thought you were part of the religious right for a second.

 

[zztop]

 

[SystemShock]

Sorry. I'll call it a 'piss-poor attempt at a gotcha' next time if it makes you feel better.

Off course you do.

One of them physically interfered with a cis woman. That's not a trans issue. That's an butt crevasse issue.

It is also irrelevant.

And you again ignore the fact (much like you did with Lia Thomas) that these women speaking out about the unfairness of it all also lost to cis women that beat the trans women.

I am not ignoring that,.

You're clutching those pearls so hard that I thought you were part of the religious right for a second.

Spare me the histrionics.

 

[SystemShock]

There are definitely organisms in nature that change from male to female and back again, depending on life cycle and/or environmental pressures.

Sure. Off the top of my head, papaya trees do that.

I’m not sure if you were just specifying humans here

Come on, man.

 

[brandon]

Sure. Off the top of my head, papaya trees do that.

Come on, man.

So you can accept that many organisms in nature change sex, but you can’t accept that somewhere in human biology, which evolved from a shared ancestor to these organisms at some point, there could be potentially gender-bending remnants in their brains, and that it would be completely natural?

 

[cuddlemonkey]

What you said:

Off course you do.

It is also irrelevant.

I am not ignoring that,.

Spare me the histrionics.

What you didn't say:

Anything that addresses my points. You did, in fact, ignore them.