All Things LGBTQ+ (8 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[Farb]

Why is the LGTBQ movement so adamant about having young children and drag becoming a thing? Why does having an 11 year old dressed in drag and dancing on stage help show pride in the LGTBQ community? Honest question, I just don't understand how the 2 relate in anyway as a good thing for any group anywhere at anytime ever.
The answer is doesn't and most gay/queer folks don't understand either but can't really say anything about it. Why is that?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/othe...ntroversy-at-boise-pride-festival/ar-AA11A0Zb
A drag show for kids, an event at the Boise Pride festival, has sparked backlash from the Republican party and far-right groups calling it inappropriate — but, children expressing themselves and their identities is empowering and builds confidence, says Boise Pride."

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Why is the LGTBQ movement so adamant about having young children and drag becoming a thing? Why does having an 11 year old dressed in drag and dancing on stage help show pride in the LGTBQ community? Honest question, I just don't understand how the 2 relate in anyway as a good thing for any group anywhere at anytime ever.
The answer is doesn't and most gay/queer folks don't understand either but can't really say anything about it. Why is that?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/othe...ntroversy-at-boise-pride-festival/ar-AA11A0Zb
A drag show for kids, an event at the Boise Pride festival, has sparked backlash from the Republican party and far-right groups calling it inappropriate — but, children expressing themselves and their identities is empowering and builds confidence, says Boise Pride."

Man, you're really obsessed with this topic.

 

[MT15]

Doctors, by default are never wrong, is that your stance? They are immune to social, political and monetary pressure?

Do you think it is Big Gov as well that they legislate against pedophilia? You don't so your argument is just MSNBC talking points.

I never said that oh Straw King! Lol

I said parents shouldn’t have their parental rights taken away by government. And that parents of trans kids are very often working with doctors (likely several doctors) to try to help their kids. The last thing they need is for government to stand in the way of what they think is best for their kids.

You misquote me so often that it must be intentional. It’s hard to see a benefit to conversing with you anymore. Which is sorta sad, because it didn’t used to be that way.

MSNBC hasn’t discussed this issue whenever I’ve watched it. But do go on with your attacks, lol.

 

[MT15]

Why is the LGTBQ movement so adamant about having young children and drag becoming a thing? Why does having an 11 year old dressed in drag and dancing on stage help show pride in the LGTBQ community? Honest question, I just don't understand how the 2 relate in anyway as a good thing for any group anywhere at anytime ever.
The answer is doesn't and most gay/queer folks don't understand either but can't really say anything about it. Why is that?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/othe...ntroversy-at-boise-pride-festival/ar-AA11A0Zb
A drag show for kids, an event at the Boise Pride festival, has sparked backlash from the Republican party and far-right groups calling it inappropriate — but, children expressing themselves and their identities is empowering and builds confidence, says Boise Pride."

What exactly was the drag show? Children dressing up and walking in the parade? How is that perverted and sexual? I would have to see what they were wearing and some context before I would be willing to go along with the overheated rhetoric that this was an attack on all Idaho children.

Come on, you’re trying to sell that this dressing up and parading is perverted to a bunch of people who have some sort of connection to New Orleans? Lol.

Seriously, I generally don’t like the sexualization of children. We can start with those gawdawful “beauty pageants and talent shows” that some people love so much. Where five year olds are wearing heavy makeup and dancing and singing in little outfits that would be more appropriate for older women. But I don’t call those pageants perverted and accuse those parents of child abuse.

Because it’s none of my business.

 

[coldseat]

Why is the LGTBQ movement so adamant about having young children and drag becoming a thing? Why does having an 11 year old dressed in drag and dancing on stage help show pride in the LGTBQ community? Honest question, I just don't understand how the 2 relate in anyway as a good thing for any group anywhere at anytime ever.
The answer is doesn't and most gay/queer folks don't understand either but can't really say anything about it. Why is that?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/othe...ntroversy-at-boise-pride-festival/ar-AA11A0Zb
A drag show for kids, an event at the Boise Pride festival, has sparked backlash from the Republican party and far-right groups calling it inappropriate — but, children expressing themselves and their identities is empowering and builds confidence, says Boise Pride."

Teenagers like to dress up and dance like adults. Shocker!

This is really no different than beauty pageants for the same age group. Just for kids that are LGBTQ.

 

[Farb]

Man, you're really obsessed with this topic.

I am indeed. For some reason, I see it as good thing to protect the innocent. I don't know, I was probably raised that way. Who knows.

 

[Farb]

I never said that oh Straw King! Lol

I said parents shouldn’t have their parental rights taken away by government. And that parents of trans kids are very often working with doctors (likely several doctors) to try to help their kids. The last thing they need is for government to stand in the way of what they think is best for their kids.

You misquote me so often that it must be intentional. It’s hard to see a benefit to conversing with you anymore. Which is sorta sad, because it didn’t used to be that way.

MSNBC hasn’t discussed this issue whenever I’ve watched it. But do go on with your attacks, lol.

Do you think it is fair to have parents lose parental rights because they don't support transitioning their minor children into the opposite sex?

And yes, it is happening, no I am not being lied too. Sure, I am a radical. I know my sources suck in our opinion but try and answer the questions without deflection, gaslighting or back tracking.

 

[Farb]

Teenagers like to dress up and dance like adults. Shocker!

This is really no different than beauty pageants for the same age group. Just for kids that are LGBTQ.

11 year olds dancing in drag on stage is what you consider 'dressing and dancing like adults'? Do you know any adults in real like that are dress like drag queens in real life? Besides that fact that it is appropriation and disrespectful for women, why is there suck a recent push to include children in something that we all agreed 15 mins ago that was a little to risque for children?

I know you are a very intelligent guy and you are also pretty centered. Can you admit that there has been this push in the last 5 to 8 years to include kids in the LGTBQ activities? I also have the sneaky suspicion that you don't agree with it either.

 

[MT15]

Do you think it is fair to have parents lose parental rights because they don't support transitioning their minor children into the opposite sex?

And yes, it is happening, no I am not being lied too. Sure, I am a radical. I know my sources suck in our opinion but try and answer the questions without deflection, gaslighting or back tracking.

I don’t think that is happening as you have characterized it, no. There would have to be some sort of allegations of abuse. I should also say I do realize the child welfare system is generally broken and capable of abuse of families themselves. So the fact of a single incidence of the child welfare system making a mistake or deciding a case wrongly doesn’t mean there is a widespread campaign to remove children who want to transition from their parents.

I’m sure you will have some story written by some outrage generator, with a very specific spin and no fealty to the facts. They are playing you, farb. They have convinced you to characterize everything happening with the LBGTQ community as a giant conspiracy to traffic children or something. It gets you to give them money, and clicks, which is the same thing as money. They don’t give a shirt about children or who they lie about to get their money.

I guess it’s interesting that you are okay with parent’s losing their parental rights in one case, but not the other.

 

[coldseat]

11 year olds dancing in drag on stage is what you consider 'dressing and dancing like adults'? Do you know any adults in real like that are dress like drag queens in real life? Besides that fact that it is appropriation and disrespectful for women, why is there suck a recent push to include children in something that we all agreed 15 mins ago that was a little to risque for children?

To be honest, I'd have to see the event first to have an opinion. I assuming that sense these are mostly teenagers and these events are open to the public, it doesn't get very risqué or sexual like a drag performance at a nightclub would. So it's basically kids dancing and showing off, but in drag. I know that's the part that bothers you the most, but it's really not that disturbing to me. I do know adults in real life that do drag. They have jobs and live life just like everybody else and aren't a danger to society or kids. They just enjoy doing drag and happen to be a lot of fun to hang out with.

I know you are a very intelligent guy and you are also pretty centered. Can you admit that there has been this push in the last 5 to 8 years to include kids in the LGTBQ activities? I also have the sneaky suspicion that you don't agree with it either.

On the periphery of LGBTQ activities, I have seen more of that in the last decade. A lot of it honestly has to do with the harassment, hate and vitriol that many LGBTQ people had to grow up with as kids, especially if they were out. We (I do include myself in this) want to make it easier for this generation of kids to grow up without the same fear and violence that older generations had to endure. The only way you do that is to spread acceptance and normalize being LGBTQ. But I can assure you that us gays prefer the majority of our events remain adult oriented and have no desire to involve kids, unless it's specifically a kids activity.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

...................... I see it as good thing to protect the innocent. .........................

Is that what you're doing?

 

[SystemShock]

And you would be wrong.

You betcha

I already made the point I was trying to make in that you are trying to make a binary situation out of something much more complex. A point that you ignored, of course.

You're really not helping your argument that you aren't arguing in a manner that resembles the religious right. Refusing to define terms to make sure we are arguing the same thing? Check. Strawmanning like a madre frocker? Check.

I am not trying to make a binary situation out of something more complex. The male-female division in sports IS BINARY. There is no complexity in the male-female division in sports. Is it males of the species on one side, female of the species on the other. Stating that fact HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY RELIGIOUS RIGHT ARGUMENT.

And refusing to define terms? Are you seriously going to tell me that you don't know what a male/female of the species is?

But enough... if you don't actually have any counter to the fact that the men-women division is based on males and females of the species, I am just going to let you go.

 

[Farb]

I don’t think that is happening as you have characterized it, no. There would have to be some sort of allegations of abuse. I should also say I do realize the child welfare system is generally broken and capable of abuse of families themselves. So the fact of a single incidence of the child welfare system making a mistake or deciding a case wrongly doesn’t mean there is a widespread campaign to remove children who want to transition from their parents.

I’m sure you will have some story written by some outrage generator, with a very specific spin and no fealty to the facts. They are playing you, farb. They have convinced you to characterize everything happening with the LBGTQ community as a giant conspiracy to traffic children or something. It gets you to give them money, and clicks, which is the same thing as money. They don’t give a shirt about children or who they lie about to get their money.

I guess it’s interesting that you are okay with parent’s losing their parental rights in one case, but not the other.

Of course you think it is not happening and your follow up with your usual talking points about my sources, my radicalization and my hate for all things that you hold dear.
I literally posted several links of this actually happening in several different states and Canada, but who care about Canada at this point. All have had investigation and no abuse found besides the 'abuse' not letting a child/minor change their sex.

Google "parent loses custody over gender affirming care". Be sure to tell google that is also if being lied too and also is become a radical right winger conspiracy machine. They might listen to you yelling at the clouds, I won't. Good luck.

 

[Farb]

To be honest, I'd have to see the event first to have an opinion. I assuming that sense these are mostly teenagers and these events are open to the public, it doesn't get very risqué or sexual like a drag performance at a nightclub would. So it's basically kids dancing and showing off, but in drag. I know that's the part that bothers you the most, but it's really not that disturbing to me. I do know adults in real life that do drag. They have jobs and live life just like everybody else and aren't a danger to society or kids. They just enjoy doing drag and happen to be a lot of fun to hang out with.



On the periphery of LGBTQ activities, I have seen more of that in the last decade. A lot of it honestly has to do with the harassment, hate and vitriol that many LGBTQ people had to grow up with as kids, especially if they were out. We (I do include myself in this) want to make it easier for this generation of kids to grow up without the same fear and violence that older generations had to endure. The only way you do that is to spread acceptance and normalize being LGBTQ. But I can assure you that us gays prefer the majority of our events remain adult oriented and have no desire to involve kids, unless it's specifically a kids activity.

I appreciate the honest reply.
I also know several that do drag and they LOVE it. They also have jobs and are great people, I am related to one. Being gay or a drag queen does not make that person a threat to anything, especially kids. I totally get that point. I have been to more drag shows than I can count and have always found them entertaining and good natured. Some get more raunchy than others but I have never had a bad experience.

I also understand making it easier on gay kids coming up, but I don't think this is the answer. I actually think it is hurting the cause. People get touchy about kids, well, I do at least, as you can tell. I just can't understand why someone would think dressing up an 11 year old as the opposite sex so they can preform in front of adults (with the age being the main concern).

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

........................................................... I just can't understand why someone would think dressing up an 11 year old as the opposite sex so they can preform in front of adults (with the age being the main concern).

So the kids involved have no say? Some adult just dresses them up and shoves them out onto a stage?

Unlike you, I don't know any drag queens. I have however listened to them talk and the ones I've heard have said they knew they had the desire to dress up by the time they were 7 or so. I suspect the kids at this event came to the same realization at an equally early age. I really doubt they're just victims of adults who want to watch them.

 

[MT15]

Of course you think it is not happening and your follow up with your usual talking points about my sources, my radicalization and my hate for all things that you hold dear.
I literally posted several links of this actually happening in several different states and Canada, but who care about Canada at this point. All have had investigation and no abuse found besides the 'abuse' not letting a child/minor change their sex.

Google "parent loses custody over gender affirming care". Be sure to tell google that is also if being lied too and also is become a radical right winger conspiracy machine. They might listen to you yelling at the clouds, I won't. Good luck.

I did Google it. I couldn’t find anything but stuff from right (far right) sources who were doing just as I suspected. I won’t give them the clicks, but just reading the summary on the page told me it was in at least one case a custody battle between parents, not the government taking kids away from their parents, just deciding which parent deserved custody in a court battle. In another case it looked like the court awarded custody to the grandparents.

Can you show me one unbiased source for the government taking kids away because the parents refuse to allow gender affirming care?

 

[MT15]

I did read the one about the grandparents. Evidently the 17 yo was suicidal, and the parents were adamant about not allowing him to identify as male. Refusing to use the name he wanted to use, etc. The grandparents were awarded custody, and will allow the teen to continue his treatment.

The court was actually reluctant to act, and only did so because of the fear that the child wouldn’t live to see 18. I think this is a tragic situation, and it seems like most people want the child to survive. The judge actually encouraged the parents to maintain contact with the teen and try to work things out.

Not seeing the big scandal here.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

You betcha

The best way to find out would have been to ask, but you didn't bother. It's almost as though you've already made up your mind and don't care about any contrary arguments.

I am not trying to make a binary situation out of something more complex. The male-female division in sports IS BINARY. There is no complexity in the male-female division in sports. Is it males of the species on one side, female of the species on the other. Stating that fact HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY RELIGIOUS RIGHT ARGUMENT.

Continuing to state something as true without actually supporting it is not a good way to have a productive conversation. This binary division you keep going on about is the problem, because the situation is not binary. If you go to the doctor with a bacterial infection and they only offer you methicillin or oxacillin and it turns out you have MRSA, you're facing a binary solution to a complex situation.

And refusing to define terms? Are you seriously going to tell me that you don't know what a male/female of the species is?

Are you defining based on chromosomes or genitals? If genitals, is it current genitals or birth genitals? Maybe you are going by the sex listed on the original birth certificate. I have no idea. Refusing to define terms or explain what you mean only serves to create confusion. That's why I'm asking and I know you are smart enough to understand that.

But enough... if you don't actually have any counter to the fact that the men-women division is based on males and females of the species, I am just going to let you go.

Letting me go after refusing to answer any question and making bold predictions is strawmanning.

To sum up: you refuse to hear any other arguments, you refuse to acknowledge valid points or clarify/define/explain terms and positions when asked, and you engage in the most transparent of logical fallacies. Would you say that these are the sort of tactics you see when you debate the religious right?