The Trump Cabinet and key post thread (2 Viewers)

TampaJoe said:

Sorry coldest. You are wrong. I was critical of this shutdown and restrictive policy from almost the beginning. I understood the initial reaction when we were trying to understand what we were up against. That I get. But we knew fairly quickly how this virus was transmitted and whom was at risk. But instead of focusing limited resources on the threat and those most at risk, we chose to try to micromanage the behavior of 320 million people. And it didn’t work.

You may ask Sam. I criticized the Trump administration and the Biden administration. I was questioning the science from the beginning and I NEVER heard anyone from the left say anything about reasonable minds meeting in the middle. That’s total BS. Anyone questioning the government or Fauci was called anti science and authoritarian and anti American, murderer. Heard it all. Been called it all.

So don’t tell me that the left was open to discussion. They were not. No questions. Do what the government tells you to do. If you lose your business, it’s your own damn fault for not having more money.

Finally, I keep hearing folks on the left talk about how Trump screwed up the pandemic. As I recall the left supported every restrictive measure in his first term and everything Fauci said in that time frame. Biden signed EOs when he took office to reverse Trump policies. How many of those reversals were related to the pandemic?

The only thing that bent the curve was vaccines.

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Trump Screwed up the pandemic because he kept saying that it would just go away for months while knowing very well how dangerous it was. By lying to the public - and that includes YOU - he prevented people from talking proper precautions early on

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...odward-he-knew-february-covid-19-was-n1239658

All the times Trump said it would just go away after that interview

https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2020/10/politics/covid-disappearing-trump-comment-tracker/

TampaJoe said:

So we should do whatever the government instructs us to do without question? Surrender our rights to question the government?

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Do you believe the government telling people to wear a mask to stop the spread of a deadly disease is surrendering your rights on the same level as telling transgendered that they no longer have the right to serve in the military?

TampaJoe said:

So we should do whatever the government instructs us to do without question? Surrender our rights to question the government?

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TampaJoe said:

Easy for you to say MT. You weren’t an owner of a business deemed non essential. So it is no skin off your back. Perhaps you weren’t the parent of a kid that lost one to two years of education. Lots of folks were affected by the decisions made by a few unelected “experts” who were insulted when asked about the science backing up their decisions. It only cost this country trillions of dollars and you think it’s petty and small for people to ask those experts where and how they get their information before we spend billions and take away the rights of people to make a living.

It’s common courtesy for a public servant to explain these things to people affected by his/her decisions. But maybe not to an authoritarian, eh?

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The problem with the kids returning to school during a pandemic, that didn’t kill many kids, is that they would carry the viruses to more susceptible people. It’s like rats don’t get sick, but they carry diseases to humans. It was necessary. I had young kids in elementary and middle school, and they continued learning. I think the negative impact of remote schooling is overstated.

TampaJoe said:

Easy for you to say MT. You weren’t an owner of a business deemed non essential. So it is no skin off your back. Perhaps you weren’t the parent of a kid that lost one to two years of education. Lots of folks were affected by the decisions made by a few unelected “experts” who were insulted when asked about the science backing up their decisions. It only cost this country trillions of dollars and you think it’s petty and small for people to ask those experts where and how they get their information before we spend billions and take away the rights of people to make a living.

It’s common courtesy for a public servant to explain these things to people affected by his/her decisions. But maybe not to an authoritarian, eh?

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He did explain. You just choose to lie - or rather repeat lies - about his explanations. My husband did own a small business - you just have no idea what you are talking about. Like cartoonishly so.

As UTJ said - you can certainly question the experts. What is despicable though is to lie about them and smear their name for no reason.

It’s common courtesy not to put words in my mouth. And yet you continue to do so. I never said it was small and petty to ask questions. It’s despicable to lie about the answers though. It’s despicable to make up stuff about ulterior motives.

You’re participating in a smear campaign. I will always point that out to you.

TampaJoe said:

So we should do whatever the government instructs us to do without question? Surrender our rights to question the government?

I dunno Jim. That sounds pretty autocratic to me. Maybe you are ready and willing to go there without question. Maybe your faith in government is unquestioning and that strong?

I reserve the right to question people who claim to be working in my best interest especially when they are asking people to restrict their freedom of movement and their ability to make a living and educate their children. If that bothers you then it is something you will just have to live with. If I’m not mistaken those rights are in the constitution and they are there for a reason. You might have some questions of your own one day and I doubt you want to be dismissed quite so easily. But I could be wrong.

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Again with the shifting goal posts. First you said that there was no scientific basis for the 6ft rule. Then I showed you the original study that it was based on. Then you said that that particular study was not good enough for you, so I showed you more and the history of how they have evolved. And now you've shifted once again - this time to some sort of rhetorical anti-authoritarian nonsense.

Never once have I said that questioning the government or anyone else is wrong. I have said you should do it honestly with at least a little bit of effort on your part, which you have displayed none of. The fact of the matter is the CDC/Fauci did have research to support their opinion.

Next, the CDC itself has no power to order quarantines or impose any rules whatsoever. They make recommendations and the various elected officials either enact them or not.

There is a pretty well established right for the government to impose quarantines explicitly granted in the Constitution. This is allowed at both the state and federal level. So, I'm not sure where you're getting this nonsense - the Founding Fathers themselves realized that epidemics and pandemics can happen and planned to allow quarantines to help control them.

Now do you think it's reasonable for each individual to determine whether to quarantine or not? That pretty much defeats the purpose of quarantines entirely.. and again, it's explicitly mentioned in the Constitution that the government can impose them. So if you have a problem with it take it up with the founders.

Optimus Prime said:

Do you believe the government telling people to wear a mask to stop the spread of a deadly disease is surrendering your rights on the same level as telling transgendered that they no longer have the right to serve in the military?

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More directly relevant -- can the federal government circumvent the wishes of the parents and doctors and medical review board recommendations and forbid children from receiving medical care without establishing scientific evidence for doing so?

TampaJoe said:

Sorry coldest. You are wrong. I was critical of this shutdown and restrictive policy from almost the beginning. I understood the initial reaction when we were trying to understand what we were up against. That I get. But we knew fairly quickly how this virus was transmitted and whom was at risk. But instead of focusing limited resources on the threat and those most at risk, we chose to try to micromanage the behavior of 320 million people. And it didn’t work.

You may ask Sam. I criticized the Trump administration and the Biden administration. I was questioning the science from the beginning and I NEVER heard anyone from the left say anything about reasonable minds meeting in the middle. That’s total BS. Anyone questioning the government or Fauci was called anti science and authoritarian and anti American, murderer. Heard it all. Been called it all.

So don’t tell me that the left was open to discussion. They were not. No questions. Do what the government tells you to do. If you lose your business, it’s your own damn fault for not having more money.

Finally, I keep hearing folks on the left talk about how Trump screwed up the pandemic. As I recall the left supported every restrictive measure in his first term and everything Fauci said in that time frame. Biden signed EOs when he took office to reverse Trump policies. How many of those reversals were related to the pandemic?

The only thing that bent the curve was vaccines.

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with all due respect, you should bow out of this thread. You have been constantly proven wrong on so many accounts. Your ignorance
on this subject has been shown in spades

Maybe we all just on about Fauci?

TampaJoe said:

Sorry coldest. You are wrong. I was critical of this shutdown and restrictive policy from almost the beginning. I understood the initial reaction when we were trying to understand what we were up against. That I get. But we knew fairly quickly how this virus was transmitted and whom was at risk. But instead of focusing limited resources on the threat and those most at risk, we chose to try to micromanage the behavior of 320 million people. And it didn’t work.

You may ask Sam. I criticized the Trump administration and the Biden administration. I was questioning the science from the beginning and I NEVER heard anyone from the left say anything about reasonable minds meeting in the middle. That’s total BS. Anyone questioning the government or Fauci was called anti science and authoritarian and anti American, murderer. Heard it all. Been called it all.

So don’t tell me that the left was open to discussion. They were not. No questions. Do what the government tells you to do. If you lose your business, it’s your own damn fault for not having more money.

Finally, I keep hearing folks on the left talk about how Trump screwed up the pandemic. As I recall the left supported every restrictive measure in his first term and everything Fauci said in that time frame. Biden signed EOs when he took office to reverse Trump policies. How many of those reversals were related to the pandemic?

The only thing that bent the curve was vaccines.

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Trump mishandled the pandemic response by downplaying its severity and misleading the American public, repeatedly claiming for months that COVID-19 would simply disappear.

You’ve been given multiple clear reasons why those policies were implemented and the science supporting them. During a pandemic, governments must take necessary actions to protect society as a whole. So, do the inconveniences you faced outweigh the rights of your community to be protected from a deadly disease? In reality, the restrictions in the U.S. were relatively mild compared to what many other nations imposed.

In China, people were quarantined in special camps for weeks to prevent the spread of the virus. Authorities set up checkpoints, allowing passage only to those who tested negative.

Here in Denmark, all non-essential businesses were shut down twice—first in the spring of 2020 and again in early 2021 when Omicron caused another surge in infections. Strangely enough, it was actually the Delta variant that sidelined my colleagues and me after our Christmas seminar.

Denmark was able to manage these shutdowns partly due to a significant budget surplus, which allowed the government to support businesses financially. Companies received state compensation for salaries as long as they didn’t lay off employees. Workers who weren’t required to work (either remotely or on-site) still had their wages covered, and for those working part-time, the state paid for the remaining hours.

On April 15, 2020, Denmark became one of the first European countries to reopen schools, but only for younger students (grades 0-5) and daycare centers. Older students (grades 6-10) and university students remained in remote learning. Schools followed strict hygiene protocols, including social distancing, frequent handwashing, outdoor classes where possible, and splitting students into smaller groups. The priority was to bring younger children back first, as they were the most vulnerable to the negative effects of social isolation.

Forty-five days later, older students were also allowed back under the same conditions, with many classes still being held outdoors.

When the second wave hit in early 2021, Denmark followed a similar strategy, adjusting restrictions as needed to balance public safety with the importance of in-person learning. The country’s early reopening in 2020 became a model that influenced policies in other nations.

RobF said:

This belongs in the Covid thread really, but, to be blunt, you are wildly ignorant on this topic. Ventilation is one important factor, but it's not magic. Air flow disperses virus-laden particles and aerosols over time, it doesn't instantaneously whip them away. Distancing is an additional factor that also reduces exposure to virus-laden particles and aerosols. Masking is another factor that also does the same.

All of that is backed up by the science, and if you don't understand it, that's a TampaJoe problem, not a science problem.

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And yet I do understand it. I know people who do this kind of thing for a living.

But all anyone has to do is look at the numbers pre vaccine. Those states that had restrictive measures performed slightly better than states that were that didn’t have restrictive measures. So while something may have worked in a controlled environment under perfect conditions, in the field it made little difference.

As far as ventilation is concerned, there is scientific proof that virus particulates from normal respiration can travel quite far in a room or other closed space unless filtered or dispersed. So if you were contagious but not symptomatic, ventilation and particle dispersion was vital. The masks being worn by the vast majority of people weren’t engineered to filter virus particles as small as Covid unless they were N95 or better. They weren’t effective for normal respiration.

We should have spent our time and resources on people over 60 with comorbidities. 15 percent of the population resulted in 85 percent of the deaths. The morbidity rates in younger folks were quite low. We didn’t need to mask kids. We didn’t need to close schools and businesses. The science and the numbers didn’t back that up.

Bet you money if it happens again, we won’t repeat the same protocols.

RobF said:

I've said it before, but you can tell when someone has been convinced of something untrue by rhetoric, because when asked to defend it, all they've got is rhetoric. No content, no data, no objective analysis.

Just untrue assertions, backed by nothing but bluster.

In reality, we know the mitigations put in place were effective, saving at least hundreds of thousands of lives (and yes, I can provide sources for that). We know that putting them in place sooner would have saved even more lives, and we know that if the states that applied them the least had applied more, they'd have saved more lives too. And we know that still applies when we take into account the negative impacts of those mitigations.

Empty bluster and falsehoods don't change any of that.

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Except I actually compared the actual raw data by state prevaccine. The difference in morbidity rates for red states versus blue states was negligible. I’ve done enough analysis and modeling to know you can change an assumption here or there and make a model say just about anything you want. So I did the math myself.

As I said earlier, if this happens again, I doubt we will follow the same protocol. I doubt the public will go along.

That being said, if someone was fearful for their health. Maybe they were older and had comorbidities. If they wanted to mask and stay at home, that’s their decision. They should look after their own health. But the folks who were not at risk and/or were not fearful should have been allowed to make their own decision as well.

Optimus Prime said:

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What is your point? It’s your right to question the government about anything. You either believe in that or you don’t.

Optimus Prime said:

Do you believe the government telling people to wear a mask to stop the spread of a deadly disease is surrendering your rights on the same level as telling transgendered that they no longer have the right to serve in the military?

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I think the government forcing me to wear a mask that they knew was inadequate was wrong. Period. And make no mistake. They knew these masks were inadequate. This isn’t then first airborne virus we encountered. They knew early on who was at risk and who was low risk. All you had to do was walk into an emergency room or intensive care and ask a pulmonologist. They could tell you chapter and verse who was dying and why. It wasn’t school kids or twenty/thirty/forty somethings.

So scaring the crap out of the entire population instead of focusing resources on those folks at risk was IMO ineffective.

You doubt me? When they rolled out the vaccines, who was first in line? Not school kids. Not folks under 50. Older folks and people with co morbidities. They knew who was at risk and choose to attempt to micromanage the behavior of the entire population including the 85 percent who were not high risk.

Joe - you’re simply wrong. You’re smashing roughly 2 years into a small point of time and claiming that scientists knew early on who was at risk.

As said, I was manager of a hospital lab throughout the pandemic. Young people were dying early on. People in their 30’s and 40’s with no comorbities were dying early on. Doctors and nurses and hospital workers were dying in the big cities early on. It took some time to figure out how to treat the disease properly. It took some time to figure out what worked and what didn’t.

By the time the vaccines rolled out, we knew better who was at risk. So yeah, by then they prioritized who got them. I got mine in December of that year - you know why? Because I worked in a hospital. Not because of my age. Everybody who worked in the hospital was offered their first shot in December.

For that whole first year we had a novel virus killing people at roughly 10x the rate of influenza. Oh, and the difference in fatalities between states with high vaccination rates and states with low vaccination rates is definitely not negligible. Wherever you got that idea, it just flat wrong. Many epidemiological studies have been done.

The respirator type masks were in short supply for months and months. Wearing a surgical mask is better than nothing. They will stop droplets. The virus doesn’t swim through the air - it still has to be carried on something, just smaller aerosols. We re-used surgical masks in the lab for quite a while - saving the respirators for those who had to enter the rooms. It was better than nothing and causes absolutely no harm to anyone wearing one. To say someone harmed you by asking you to wear a surgical mask is just crazy. And as pointed out, the decisions were made by elected officials on the recommendation of the experts. Elected officials of both parties I might add.

Honestly, I just don’t know how to deal with this level of misplaced anger. Yeah, we would probably do some things differently. Everybody was doing the best they could under the circumstances. And instead of people pulling together, we got nothing but grief from the always angry right MAGA. So in a national emergency, people like you choose to agitate instead of pulling together. I repeat - wearing a surgical mask never hurt anyone.

Then again, now that Trump is back in the WH I would expect the same level of response if the bird flu makes the jump to human-to-human transmission. Worse, probably, because Trump is getting rid of good scientists and replacing them with absolute idiots like RFK, Jr. who thinks that polio wasn’t conquered by the polio vaccine. Trump has never learned anything from his mistakes.

The vaccine saved us from Covid. That and learning how to better treat the symptoms. We need to do better with ventilation sure - but these things came out more than a year into the pandemic. They were not evident in the early days.

If you didn’t want to wear a surgical mask, you didn’t have to. Just stay home, right? lol The MAGA crowd loves to say that to people at high risk - just stay home.

Nobody forced you to wear one. All you had to do was stay home.

TampaJoe said:

I think the government forcing me to wear a mask that they knew was inadequate was wrong. Period. And make no mistake. They knew these masks were inadequate.

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Confidently incorrect guy strikes again, you are a meme at this point.

I want to point something out. Conseratives hated masking. These jokers consider themselves morally superior. Masking was a simple display of empahty. Slighly inconvience yourself for the greater good of everyone else. It's extremely telling your lot hated it so much.

How is anyone complaining about having to put cloth over your mouth 5 years later?

TampaJoe said:

What is your point? It’s your right to question the government about anything. You either believe in that or you don’t.

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Question yes. But in this case and this thread this quote from my profile is quite fitting


“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
― Isaac Asimov