Israel vs Hamas (1 Viewer)

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    GrandAdmiral

    GrandAdmiral

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    Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

    www.cnn.com

    Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

    Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.
    www.cnn.com www.cnn.com
     
    Heathen said:
    I never said that it was surprising.

    Why do some here seem to be quite reactionary at mine and other posters’ comments regarding these hypocritical statements and rhetoric?

    I’m wondering what is causing this irritation, personally.

    I do suspect that it falls partly upon political lines.
    Click to expand...
    You're reading something that isn't there, at least where I'm concerned. I'm not at all irritated or even reactionary. Just having a conversation. :shrug:
    Heathen said:
    I never said they were not, as I’ve repeated fairly consistently.
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    Ok.
    Heathen said:
    My point (as you are replying to my comment to another poster) is that this issue is particularly egregious, and we don’t often have such crystal clear empirical evidence that what the state department or any govt official is saying the case in Gaza is, in fact, not the case.
    Click to expand...
    I'm not sure what you expect then. You already know what their talking points are. You know they aren't going to deviate from that, at least until the WH does.
    Heathen said:
    It’s about the gravity of the situation. More and more it becomes difficult for the choices and claims the US government (or any large entity) makes not to be tested for its validity.
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    It just seems you're not accepting that the State and by extension, the WH is in your mind, not responding to the gravity of the situation. I haven't commented on that because I've already addressed it in other previous posts. I'll state unequivocally that Bibi needs to be punted and new leadership in Israel needs to be chosen. That's entirely up to Israel. They're still an ally until the Biden administration says we aren't.
    Heathen said:
    I’m hoping that makes sense.
    Click to expand...
    I think it makes sense, but I think part of your frustration is that the Administration isn't being deliberate enough in standing up against the aggression of Israel towards their neighbors. It may be cut and dried to you, but diplomacy with so many moving parts is rarely ever simple.
    Heathen said:
    “So what”?

    Im going to repeat what this whole scuffle is about. It started with me questioning those who thought that the statement “the state department can’t be trusted” (paraphrasing) was made. People had a problem with that.
    Click to expand...
    The "State Department can't be trusted" is really a matter of missing where the anger or whatever is driving the question. That's for the WH. The State Department is almost always going to tow the company line, and isessebtially a misdirected comment.
    Heathen said:
    You keep repeating what essentially amounts to “WHY do you act so surprised? It’s protocol” when I never indicated that I was surprised about protocol.
    Click to expand...
    Then I'm not understanding your issue.
    Heathen said:
    This will continue to be about questioning why other posters seem to have such a problem with the narrative that you cannot trust the government’s statements
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    It starts and stops with the WH. I suppose you could add Congress to that. These State Department is an extension of the WH. It's really that simple. I'm saying you're pointing your outrage in the wrong direction.
    Heathen said:
    - as evidenced by the last 10 months in Gaza being mostly the opposite of what they’ve claimed to be doing. That is in regard to intel, bombs, welcoming one war criminal to our congress while condemning another, praising the ICC when they condemn one war criminal but then going after the ICC when they go after another.. list goes on and on.
    Click to expand...
    Yes, and?
    Heathen said:
    We can do this all day.
    Click to expand...
    If that's what you want to do, ok.
    Heathen said:
    So back to the question - those of you who have a problem with the statement being mentioned in this context - WHY do you disagree with the statement?

    That is and will continue to be the real question.
    Click to expand...
    I think I've answered that above.
    Heathen said:
    That’s not what I’m interested in.

    I’m interested in why clear hypocrisy in policy doesn’t bother others. And would challenge you or anyone to convince me of why as an American who cares both about other humans and about where a massive amount of our tax dollars go, this isn’t a serious issue.
    Click to expand...
    Never said it doesn't bother me. I'm not a fan of how Biden is handling the situation. And of course it's a serious issue. It's also a complex issue that has been going on since well before any of us were alive, and likely will continue into the foreseeable future.
    Heathen said:
    He doesn’t have to believe anything. You don’t either.
    Click to expand...
    Sure.
    Heathen said:
    But at the end of the day what he believes and what his administration’s actions are involved in create quite the chasm, don’t they?
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    Of course.
    Heathen said:
    I really want to understand how you’d act in this situation:

    How would you feel if your job was to tell the press you were concerned about the safety of the Palestinian people, knowing good and well your administration knew that Israel was only increasing their torturing, maiming, disfiguring and slaughter, and that your nation was allowing it to happen?
    Click to expand...
    I wouldn't like it, but, I'd either do the job I was hired to do or find another one. And probably why I'm not gonna get a job that puts me in that position.
    Heathen said:
    And please, I’m not interested in hearing again about protocol or “that’s the way it is”.
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    Ok, but at least you understand why things are the way they are. You're free you keep speaking up. No one is stopping you.
    Heathen said:
    The answer is along the lines of being seriously morally conflicted, and feeling complicit in the dehumanization of an entire people during a genocide.
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    Sure. I can appreciate the sentiment.
    Heathen said:
    Can the American people trust them when they claim to be doing everything they can for Palestinian lives while actively contributing to their demise?
    Click to expand...
    That's for each individual to decide. Some will agree and some won't.
    Heathen said:
    You’ve yet to provide a counter argument that I’ve seen.
    Click to expand...
    I don't represent the Administration so I don't feel the need to defend anything they're doing.
     
    zztop said:
    I really have to learn how to do that multi-quote thing so I can split up quotes for multiple replies like above ^
    Click to expand...

    just type
    in front of sentence and then

    then at the end same but put /quote (in the brackets )
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    crap- it quoted lol

    so its [] with quote in them then at end add /quote
     
    zztop said:
    I really have to learn how to do that multi-quote thing so I can split up quotes for multiple replies like above ^
    Click to expand...
    It's really easy.

    Highlight the first line/set of lines you want to quote. Once you finish highlighting, the following pops up...

    1722635428154.png


    Click the "+Quote." Do it to each subsequent line, pressing the "Quote" each time. You can also do it across multiple posts AND multiple threads.

    Once you have everything...

    1722635665804.png
     
    zztop said:
    I really have to learn how to do that multi-quote thing
    Click to expand...
    Return or enter here and it will show like this.
    zztop said:
    so I can split up quotes for multiple replies like above ^
    Click to expand...
    You can just quote like normal, then where you want to split the quote up, hit return and it should split it up, like I do here above.

    Multi-quote is useful for stringing together several different posts.
     
    Warning: NSFW (Graphic)









     
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    Heathen said:
    Warning: NSFW (Graphic)

    Click to expand...

    I think you should post links like that within a spoiler box, so images and/or video doesn't automatically load. See how I edited your post above for an example.

    Click on the more option in the tool bar the 3 stacked dots:
    1722835186620.png


    Then click on the crossed out eye and follow the directions:
    1722835301156.png
     
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    DaveXA said:
    You're reading something that isn't there, at least where I'm concerned. I'm not at all irritated or even reactionary. Just having a conversation. :shrug:
    Click to expand...

    That’s why I didn’t say you specifically.

    I don’t think that I’m reading into something that isn’t there. We can go through the entirety of this thread and pull out several examples of
    reactionary posts toward pointing out hypocritical statements coming out of the WH with regard to Gaza.


    DaveXA said:
    I'm not sure what you expect then. You already know what their talking points are. You know they aren't going to deviate from that, at least until the WH does.
    Click to expand...

    I expect to hear any decent argument at all as to why there seems to be so much disagreement with those of us who point out that the US has been wildly hypocritical in their statements vs their actions on Gaza.

    I’m not sure how I can make that any more clear.

    DaveXA said:
    It just seems you're not accepting that the State and by extension, the WH is in your mind, not responding to the gravity of the situation.
    Click to expand...

    I’m truly wondering..if I’ve told you the opposite of this many times, why are you continuing to state this?

    I’m well aware of how the White House has responded to the situation. What I’ve consistently pointed out is that there is hypocrisy in those responses.

    DaveXA said:
    I haven't commented on that because I've already addressed it in other previous posts. I'll state unequivocally that Bibi needs to be punted and new leadership in Israel needs to be chosen. That's entirely up to Israel. They're still an ally until the Biden administration says we aren't.
    Click to expand...

    Getting rid of Netanyahu isn’t going to change what Israel is doing and has done well before he was in office. You’d have to wipe the Knesset clean, as well as most of the IDF who strongly support what they’re doing to people in Gaza.

    And what do you do about all of the people who strongly agree that Israel should continue what they are doing? Their government created this mess over decades, and now they are angry at resistance to the oppression that now endangers them. But don’t seem to be too worried about tens of thousands of women and children being blown to bits.


    DaveXA said:
    I think it makes sense, but I think part of your frustration is that the Administration isn't being deliberate enough in standing up against the aggression of Israel towards their neighbors. It may be cut and dried to you, but diplomacy with so many moving parts is rarely ever simple.
    Click to expand...

    I think you’re assuming that I expect a cut and dry change. Or maybe you also assumed that I think changes in alliances are a simple on off switch. As I’ve said, that’s never been the case.

    Calling someone a hypocrite doesn’t mean that you don’t understand fully why they’re acting hypocritical. And the reasoning behind why they’re acting hypocritical, doesn’t excuse them from being an actual hypocrites. Repeating governmental policy or statement statements doesn’t excuse someone from that policy being not only contradictory at the highest level, but immoral as well.

    We’ve seen this sort of backlash to
    government position throughout our nation’s history.

    I think as an American citizen, I have the right to be frustrated with leaders who say one thing, but do another.

    What I am actually saying is that we should continue to point out the blatant hypocrisy in this toxic relationship we have with Israel that we have because it does, in fact, have a negative effect on the people of the United States (billions sent for Israeli weaponry that is not being spent to strengthen the middle class in America). It also endanger our troops and Americans abroad significantly. It also increases the chance that we’re going to be drawn into another large regional war.

    DaveXA said:
    The "State Department can't be trusted" is really a matter of missing where the anger or whatever is driving the question. That's for the WH. The State Department is almost always going to tow the company line, and isessebtially a misdirected comment.
    Click to expand...

    Could you be a little more clear in what you’re trying to say here?

    DaveXA said:
    Then I'm not understanding your issue.
    Click to expand...

    As I’ve repeated many times now, the issue is wanting to know why people who oppose the statement that you can’t trust the state dept to be forthright in the dynamic between what they convey, and what the government actually does — find their logic. Or rather what’s their reasoning behind their opposition of the original statement?

    I want to repeat…NOT from a policy standpoint. In so many other facets of life,
    If 1 makes statements about what they’re doing and what they stand for, but then goes on to completely do the opposite - consistently over many months… they’d be held to the logical conclusion of not being able to be trusted.. right?

    It seems to boil down to an answer of “why are you questioning it or surprised? It’s policy” when that was never in question the first place.

    DaveXA said:
    It starts and stops with the WH. I suppose you could add Congress to that. These State Department is an extension of the WH. It's really that simple. I'm saying you're pointing your outrage in the wrong direction.
    Click to expand...

    As I’ve already explained, that isn’t the argument.

    DaveXA said:
    Yes, and?
    Click to expand...

    I’m interested to hear on if you think any of that is hypocritical. Only that, I don’t want to hear anything about White House policy or what it has been or what representatives are required to repeat.

    I’m asking your take on it.

    DaveXA said:
    If that's what you want to do, ok.
    Click to expand...

    It’s my feeling that it is only logical.

    DaveXA said:
    Never said it doesn't bother me. I'm not a fan of how Biden is handling the situation. And of course it's a serious issue. It's also a complex issue that has been going on since well before any of us were alive, and likely will continue into the foreseeable future.
    Click to expand...

    We agree on a lot of that.

    The problem is that I see a lot of people (not saying you in particular) seem to put Israel’s war crimes in Gaza into the broader basket of “ well they’ve been fighting for a long time and there’s so much we don’t understand” when there’s very clearly a lot that we do understand and should stand up against.

    I’m not expecting you to hold that view, but it is my view. And I think it’s a slippery slope argument that if the shoe was on the other foot would be quite different and people here would likely be responding in a different way.

    From a human morality standpoint, it’s always important to address double standards. I’m not here to convince people to see it my way, but I’ll always mention it because there are people who may not participate in all this back-and-forth, but this back-and-forth will cause them to think more deeply about this issue and the broader questions it invokes.

    DaveXA said:
    wouldn't like it, but, I'd either do the job I was hired to do or find another one. And probably why I'm not gonna get a job that puts me in that position.
    Click to expand...

    I think the question was less about you as a state department press secretary in a hypothetical where you hold that position, and more of a question of your thoughts on the morality of it.

    DaveXA said:
    That's for each individual to decide. Some will agree and some won't.
    Click to expand...

    Agreed. Hopefully it is sobering for some.

    DaveXA said:
    I don't represent the Administration so I don't feel the need to defend anything they're doing.
    Click to expand...

    No one here represents the administration to my knowledge.

    And that’s never been the question. Back to my example of a regular person saying one thing but consistently doing another egregious thing - I’d like the question to be why is this government policy accepted as something that just has to be accepted, while in so many other situations, such actions would land one in prison for life.

    It’s not that I don’t understand that things can’t be perfect and that there exists deep contextual complexities - it’s that our government especially in foreign policies consistently acts in a manner that paints the picture of a rogue entity acting as if there are no limitations.

    And really, are there? Who could hold them in check? Have a look at the spending report re: pentagon’s budget for just one of many cues on that.
     
    GrandAdmiral said:
    WWIII is about to kick off in the Middle East. Thanks Bibi.

    www.cnn.com

    Middle East braces for week that could determine the course of the Gaza war | CNN

    This week’s events could determine the course of the war in Gaza and significantly shift the focus away from the besieged enclave if retaliation by Iran escalates into a wider regional conflict involving the United States and other nations.
    www.cnn.com www.cnn.com
    Click to expand...
    Fingers crossed we and our allies pull off another escalation preventing move.
     
    Actions have consequences, Bibi. Thanks a lot for moving everyone closer to wide-spread war.

    www.cnn.com

    Hamas names Yahya Sinwar as head of political bureau | CNN

    Israel has accused Sinwar of being the “mastermind” behind Hamas’ terror attack against Israel on October 7 and he is believed to be a key target in the siege of Gaza.
    www.cnn.com www.cnn.com
     








     
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