FBI official under investigation after allegedly altering document in 2016 Russia probe (DOJ IG Report thread) (3 Viewers)

MT15 said:

Didn‘t Papadopoulos plead guilty to “making false statements” to the FBI? So you’re upset that his lies weren’t included in the application?

There were parts of the Dossier that have been proven to be accurate. So there were useful parts of the dossier that could be used.

There are parts of the report that certainly don’t further your agenda, by the way, but you aren’t giving those parts any attention, which is the definition of cherry picking.

Barr has no leg to stand on anymore in any pretense of being fair or open to finding the truth. He stated his conclusions before he started investigating. He’s nothing if not a political operator at this point in time.

The FBI didn’t spy on the Trump campaign, the Steele dossier wasn’t essential to opening the investigation, Steele doesn’t hate Trump, there is no “deep state” conspiracy against Trump. These are all fantasies.

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The Page and Papadopoulos information that was excluded were statements made to a Confidential Human Source (CHS), not statements made during FBI interviews.

While we don't know all of the meeting places, Papadopoulos seemed to meet the CHS working him in bars for their little chats.


We have not reached the point in our history where one must plead guilty if caught lying to someone in a bar but we certainly look to be on the road to that.

So, whatever lying Papadopoulos pled to, it was not for information excluded from the FISA applications.

My agenda is not what you think it is.

The IG report paints a picture of an FBI deliberately and repeatedly presenting false information to support the initiation and continuation of an investigation.

Just because the IG says he doesn't think this pattern was politically motivated does not make me sleep well at night.

You are usually "deeply concerned" over "troubling" items. This really should be included in that list.

I’m of the opinion that the FISA system needs an overhaul. But that had nothing to do with the investigation into possible Russian influence in the Trump campaign.

What is troubling to me right now is the Trump narrative that the FBI is full of political operatives who are operating as some sort of deep state attempting a coup. That is reckless, dangerous propaganda.

Beach Friends said:

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Maybe you guys will finally get Comey with the investigation into the investigation investigating the investigation into the investigators of the Russia investigation.

I enjoy reading how corrupt the FBI is and that they are politically motivated, yet Trumps personal attorney intefering with State Department business at the behest of the president is totally legit.

As far as the Steele Dosier goes it wasn't received till two weeks after the investigation started.

The FBI did not use the Steele dossier to open Russia probe
A key accusation among Trump’s allies has been that the FBI predicated its investigation of Trump campaign officials Carter Page, Paul Manafort, George Papadopoulos and Michael Flynn on information the bureau received from former British spy Christopher Steele.
But Horowitz found that the Crossfire Hurricane team — the code name agents gave to the Russia inquiry — did not receive Steele’s election reporting materials until after the investigation had already been opened using information about Papadopoulos the team received from an allied nation.

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Source from Politico

MT15 said:

I’m of the opinion that the FISA system needs an overhaul. But that had nothing to do with the investigation into possible Russian influence in the Trump campaign.

What is troubling to me right now is the Trump narrative that the FBI is full of political operatives who are operating as some sort of deep state attempting a coup. That is reckless, dangerous propaganda.

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The FISA system needs applicants who aren't lying.

The Crossfire Hurricane investigation was opened on remarkably thin predication. A conversation between a low level Trump campaign official and an Australian Government official resulted in what is termed as a "suggestion" that the Trump campaign had received a suggested offer of help from Russia.



If one has complete faith in the integrity of the FBI, opening an investigation on such thin gruel could be acceptable.

However, we know that competence and integrity seemed to be in short supply in Comey's FBI so maybe the predication requirements need a serious examination so that future presidential candidates aren't subjected to years of investigation predicated on what was allegedly said in a bar.

In order to surveil the Trump campaign, the FBI falsified an application to open up the most intrusive investigatory tools in the box and continued to falsify and exclude to keep the investigation going.

Trump may be engaged in hyperbole but he isn't wrong.

Archies Ghost said:

The FISA system needs applicants who aren't lying.

The Crossfire Hurricane investigation was opened on remarkably thin predication. A conversation between a low level Trump campaign official and an Australian Government official resulted in what is termed as a "suggestion" that the Trump campaign had received a suggested offer of help from Russia.

If one has complete faith in the integrity of the FBI, opening an investigation on such thin gruel could be acceptable.

However, we know that competence and integrity seemed to be in short supply in Comey's FBI so maybe the predication requirements need a serious examination so that future presidential candidates aren't subjected to years of investigation predicated on what was allegedly said in a bar.

In order to surveil the Trump campaign, the FBI falsified an application to open up the most intrusive investigatory tools in the box and continued to falsify and exclude to keep the investigation going.

Trump may be engaged in hyperbole but he isn't wrong.

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On the flip side, the Department of Justice is carrying water for the president. So we are supposed to believe what Barr and Durham are telling us because they are beyond repute? Barr is a political hack and was nominated because they knew he would defend Trump at all costs. His release on the Mueller report was in complete opposition of what was in the report. It was a spin job that the GOP uses to say he was exonerated.
I can tell you if there is a suggestion of Russia influencing a campaign from someone within a campaign, that is evidence enough to find out more. What do you think they will have? Affidavits from the Russian hackers that yes they are trying to influence the election. It seems all evidence has to be irrefutable and concrete for investigations in the GOP but literal Russian pushed conspiracy theories against the left are totally legit and warrant action. You can't have it both ways.
You do realize Comey tanked Hillary's campaign with the nothing burger about her emails. Yet he is totally anti-trump. Even though most of his anti-trump rhetoric happened when he was fired by Trump. How many bosses have you been fired or even passed over for a promotion that you speak highly of?
Trump is as crooked as a snake. It is well documented that he will lie, steal and break the law to make a buck. His behavior has not changed since he started running for office. If you want proof, look at how he stole 2 million dollars for his Veteran fundraiser and used it for his campaign. How you can stand here and defend his garbage is beyond me?

For those who have read the report - does it tell us who/when/why the investigation into people closely connected to the Trump campaign was done by intelligence as opposed to a standard criminal investigation?

JimEverett said:

For those who have read the report - does it tell us who/when/why the investigation into people closely connected to the Trump campaign was done by intelligence as opposed to a standard criminal investigation?

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The investigation was initiated because of Papa's suggestion to an Aussie of a suggestion from Mifsud that Russia was offering the Trump campaign dirt on HRC.

There is no crime in there.

It could only be a counter-intelligence investigation (national security threat is the language in the report) from that origin point.

Archies Ghost said:

The FISA system needs applicants who aren't lying.

The Crossfire Hurricane investigation was opened on remarkably thin predication. A conversation between a low level Trump campaign official and an Australian Government official resulted in what is termed as a "suggestion" that the Trump campaign had received a suggested offer of help from Russia.

If one has complete faith in the integrity of the FBI, opening an investigation on such thin gruel could be acceptable.

However, we know that competence and integrity seemed to be in short supply in Comey's FBI so maybe the predication requirements need a serious examination so that future presidential candidates aren't subjected to years of investigation predicated on what was allegedly said in a bar.

In order to surveil the Trump campaign, the FBI falsified an application to open up the most intrusive investigatory tools in the box and continued to falsify and exclude to keep the investigation going.

Trump may be engaged in hyperbole but he isn't wrong.

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So Horowitiz found that there was sufficient predication to open an investigation into possible Trump campaign ties to Russia. He also found that the FBI did initially start the investigation with the "least intrusive" investigative methods, as required to do so for sensitive investigations.

Early Investigative Steps and Adherence to the Least Intrusive Method The AG Guidelines and t he DIOG require that the " least intrusive" means or method be "considered" when selecting investigative techniques and, "if reasonable based upon the circumstances of the investigation," be used to obtain information instead of a more intrusive method. The DIOG states that the degree of procedural protection the law and Department and FBI policy provide for the use of a particular investigative method helps to determine its intrusiveness. As described in Chapter Three, immediately after opening the investigation, the iv Crossfire Hurricane team submitted name trace requests to other U.S. government agencies and a foreign intelligence agency, and conducted law enforcement database and open source searches, to identify individuals associated with the Trump campaign in a position to have received the alleged offer of assistance from Russia. The FBI also sent Strzok and a Supervisory Special Agent (SSA) abroad to interview t he source of the information the FBI received from the FFG, and also searched t he FBI 's database of CHSs to identify sources who potentially cou ld provide information about connections between individuals associated with the Trump campaign and Russia. Each of these steps is authorized under the DIOG and was a less intrusive investigative technique.

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Most of the criticism on the early parts of the investigation that Horowitiz pointed out has to do with DOJ and FBI policy, not with the people carrying it out. They followed the policy that was in place at the time.

And of course, he found no political influence.

While there are certainly procedures that need to be corrected and clarified, it seems like most of the fire breathing from Trump and Republicans were baseless accusations and lies. Pretty much as expected.

Archies Ghost said:

The investigation was initiated because of Papa's suggestion to an Aussie of a suggestion from Mifsud that Russia was offering the Trump campaign dirt on HRC.

There is no crime in there.

It could only be a counter-intelligence investigation from that origin point.

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I need to read it but do not have time right now.
Back early in the Trump Presidency I remember reading that Obama's DOJ had started a criminal investigation but that had gotten nowhere and then at some point an intelligence investigation had begun. I was hoping we would get some insight into the who/when/how/why of that and if there was any truth to the report I read.
Even beyond that report - did the investigation start out as an intelligence-gathering against Russians only and then the evidence led to people connected to Trump 2016? Or was it initiated with Trump affiliates in mind?

coldseat said:

So Horowitiz found that there was sufficient predication to open an investigation into possible Trump campaign ties to Russia. He also found that the FBI did initially start the investigation with the "least intrusive" investigative methods, as required to do so for sensitive investigations.



Most of the criticism on the early parts of the investigation that Horowitiz pointed out has to do with DOJ and FBI policy, not with the people carrying it out. They followed the policy that was in place at the time.

And of course, he found no political influence.

While there are certainly procedures that need to be corrected and clarified, it doesn't seem like most of the fire breathing from Trump and Republicans were baseless accusations and lies. Pretty much as expected.

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He found no documentary or testimonial evidence of political bias, just like Mueller found no documentary or testimonial evidence of collusion.

Do you hold the same position on both of those conclusions?

Archies Ghost said:

He found no documentary or testimonial evidence of political bias, just like Mueller found no documentary or testimonial evidence of collusion.

Do you hold the same position on both of those conclusions?

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yes

JimEverett said:

I need to read it but do not have time right now.
Back early in the Trump Presidency I remember reading that Obama's DOJ had started a criminal investigation but that had gotten nowhere and then at some point an intelligence investigation had begun. I was hoping we would get some insight into the who/when/how/why of that and if there was any truth to the report I read.
Even beyond that report - did the investigation start out as an intelligence-gathering against Russians only and then the evidence led to people connected to Trump 2016? Or was it initiated with Trump affiliates in mind?

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This report only addresses Crossfire Hurricane, which originated because an Aussie reported that Papa suggested that Mifsud suggested the Russians made an offer of dirt to the Trump campaign.

Archies Ghost said:

He found no documentary or testimonial evidence of political bias, just like Mueller found no documentary or testimonial evidence of collusion.

Do you hold the same position on both of those conclusions?

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Do you?

Archies Ghost said:

He found no documentary or testimonial evidence of political bias, just like Mueller found no documentary or testimonial evidence of collusion.

Do you hold the same position on both of those conclusions?

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Mueller found no documentary or testimonial evidence of conspiracy, as that was the criminal charge. Yes, I have no reason to believe that Mueller is lying to us. I accept his findings.

Of course, the investigations into Russian/Trump conspiracy and into the start of this investigation aren't exactly the same thing. Mueller had to rely on witness testimony and what his investigators where able to find. Horowitz had a much longer and documented paper trial and had access to all the witness. He basically had all the information he needed, where as Mueller probably had blind spots due to information he wasn't able to obtain. So just by the nature of the investigations, I'd say that Horowitz's investigation is likely more complete.