Israel vs Hamas (1 Viewer)

UriUT said:

Right, so out of the dozens and dozens of protests, we have one that resulted in vandalism.

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I don’t believe this is accurate. I think the vandalism is more widespread than you are letting on here, especially very recently as the protests are evolving from encampments to occupying buildings. I have read about vandalism at USC, UCLA, Columbia, Portland State - just going from memory.

Also, while not violent, the protesters in more than one place have set up checkpoints where they question a person’s views on the war and only allow those access who pass their purity test. If you don’t pass their ideological test, you very well may be threatened to leave what is public property. This isn’t benign peaceful protest behavior in my opinion and in the opinion of those who are threatened.

There have also been violent counter-protests. And over-reactions by police and university administrations. As well as at least two places where the students have voluntarily disbanded after securing negotiations with university administrators.

The movement in many places, though. is actually working against their goals at this point. They need to regroup and refocus on what’s important to them.

MT15 said:

I don’t believe this is accurate. I think the vandalism is more widespread than you are letting on here, especially very recently as the protests are evolving from encampments to occupying buildings. I have read about vandalism at USC, UCLA, Columbia, Portland State - just going from memory.

Also, while not violent, the protesters in more than one place have set up checkpoints where they question a person’s views on the war and only allow those access who pass their purity test. If you don’t pass their ideological test, you very well may be threatened to leave what is public property. This isn’t benign peaceful protest behavior in my opinion and in the opinion of those who are threatened.

There have also been violent counter-protests. And over-reactions by police and university administrations. As well as at least two places where the students have voluntarily disbanded after securing negotiations with university administrators.

The movement in many places, though. is actually working against their goals at this point. They need to regroup and refocus on what’s important to them.

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Are you really bringing in ucla? I looked. You can send post the links of all those cases. Either way, there isnt much clear violence to sneeze about or the right wing would ve pounce on it. Look I saw boebert walk into a protest and tried to pull a Palestinian flag. They didn't act violently but only asserted their right to do so. These kids know that like Obama they have to act perfectly. Will there be undisciplined cases. Maybe.

So you are gonna quibble over check points? Did you see that kid in the videos that I posted who tried to get inside and disrupt and antagonize them? I certainly don't find it to be worth getting in a knot. Next thing we know, they allow some real disruptions In and start violence and we ll hear how violent the protests are.

Yeah, about the counter protests. Let's blame the pro Palestinians protest for that. Can these people do no right?

And I agree with that last point. I don't think it's productive use of their time and yes, to no fault of their own, have unleased a backlash. But that certainly shouldnt delegitimize their cause.

I don't understand why in this specific case compare to other movements like blm or the Civil rights, that we now use the tools of those opposing those movements against a constitutionally protected act. Especially when it's vastly non violent.

UriUT said:

Yeah, about the counter protests. Let's blame the pro Palestinians protest for that. Can these people do no right?

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I wasn’t blaming the protesters for that. I included it for completeness and clarity.

UriUT said:

So you are gonna quibble over check points?

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Yes, it’s not a quibble. Anyone baiting them is wrong as well. A truly peaceful protest doesn’t use purity tests and checkpoints with threatening language. It doesn’t occupy and vandalize buildings. It isn’t actual violence but it isn’t truly peaceful either.

You might be overreacting a bit to what I am trying to say. It isn’t any different than my responses to BLM protests either.

My point about outside agitation is that these people don’t necessarily care about the issues, sometimes they just want to cause chaos and uproar. The original student protesters would be better off without them in many cases.

MT15 said:

I wasn’t blaming the protesters for that. I included it for completeness and clarity.

Yes, it’s not a quibble. Anyone baiting them is wrong as well. A truly peaceful protest doesn’t use purity tests and checkpoints with threatening language. It doesn’t occupy and vandalize buildings. It isn’t actual violence but it isn’t truly peaceful either.

You might be overreacting a bit to what I am trying to say. It isn’t any different than my responses to BLM protests either.

My point about outside agitation is that these people don’t necessarily care about the issues, sometimes they just want to cause chaos and uproar. The original student protesters would be better off without them in many cases.

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How can I over react when it's clear that you are questioning their motives. And even bringing in outside agitators as the reason. It doesn't matter whether it's all students or not. Just like it doesn't matter that there were white Northerners in the Civil rights movement. Or does it matter that there were white kids in the Floyd blm movement. You dont have evidence that anyone is egging them to violence or changing their reason to be. You don't have evidence either way of antisemetic assaults when one side says there was and another says there wasn't. We simply don't know right now.

UriUT said:

How can I over react when it's clear that you are questioning their motives. And even bringing in outside agitators as the reason. It doesn't matter whether it's all students or not. Just like it doesn't matter that there were white Northerners in the Civil rights movement. Or does it matter that there were white kids in the Floyd blm movement. You dont have evidence that anyone is egging them to violence or changing their reason to be. You don't have evidence either way of antisemetic assaults when one side says there was and another says there wasn't. We simply don't know right now.

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How exactly is she questioning their motives? Just because she's asking questions and pointing out the issues we're discussing isn't an indictment of the protestors or their cause. When people have lost the plot, maybe it's time to reassess whether the message is being lost and how do they regain the narrative, which most understand to be highlighting the suffering of Palestinians and suggesting that our money and weapons shouldn't be contributing to that effort.

MT15 said:

I don’t believe this is accurate. I think the vandalism is more widespread than you are letting on here, especially very recently as the protests are evolving from encampments to occupying buildings. I have read about vandalism at USC, UCLA, Columbia, Portland State - just going from memory.

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Please provide sources reporting on buildings being occupied at other protest spots.

Please provide sources reporting on significant vandalism at USC, UCLA, Columbia, and Portland state. I've only read about minor instances of graffiti and littering, but nothing about any significant vandalism.

MT15 said:

Also, while not violent, the protesters in more than one place have set up checkpoints where they question a person’s views on the war and only allow those access who pass their purity test.

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When you read about the checkpoints, did you think "purity test" or did you read "purity test?"

I ask, because in the reports and videos posted in this thread about checkpoints, I've never seen any evidence of any actual "purity test" at these checkpoints.

The protestors can't win. If they allow anybody to join their protests, then it's "agitators" have infiltrated so we need to shut these protests down.

If the protesters do anything to try to screen for agitators trying to infiltrate, then it's they're conducting "purity tests," so we need to shut down these protests.

Notice the pattern? Most of the reporting and the infiltration is designed to get the American public to have one reaction to these protests, "we need to shut these protests down."

Tragically, it's working all too well and exactly as intended, and I doubt Hamas is behind it. It's illogical and highly unlikely that Hamas is stoking the violence and vandalism. They know that will get the protests shut down and that is not what's in their best interest.

MT15 said:

If you don’t pass their ideological test, you very well may be threatened to leave what is public property. This isn’t benign peaceful protest behavior in my opinion and in the opinion of those who are threatened.

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The videos and interviews I've seen in this thread, in which people claimed the above have happened to them, have been exaggerated, unsubstantiated and suspect based on what I saw, heard and read for myself.

MT15 said:

The movement in many places, though. is actually working against their goals at this point.

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Are they really, or have they been infiltrated by people who are sabotaging their efforts and stealing all of the attention?

I think the answer is they have been infiltrated by people who are are sabotaging their efforts and stealing all of the attention which leaves people with the mistaken impression that the majority of the protesters are now working against their own goals.

That mistaken impression leads people to think, "we need to shut these protests down." I know that doesn't apply to you, MT15.

MT15 said:

They need to regroup and refocus on what’s important to them.

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That's always a good course of action. I think we also need to should support their efforts to try to screen out those looking to sabotage the protests instead of seeing it as a "purity test."

Any efforts by the protestors to screen out saboteurs is going to be falsely portrayed by the saboteurs as an unfair, ideological "purity test." Bad faith actors don't like anyone or anything that prevents them from being able to act in bad faith. Being the bad faith actors they are, they falsely portray efforts to stop them as the other person acting in bad faith.

Just like liars always call the people, who point out their lies, liars.

Heathen said:

Close to 300 ex-Obama-Biden staffers call to suspend military assistance to Israel - USA Today

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I'm hoping this is where the Biden administration will end up by no later than September

I hope Biden is using soft power right now to try to get Israel to deescalate, while also making preparations for if Israel makes it painfully clear they leave us know choice but to suspend military aid.

A slow approach like that would provide the best chance at a more stable transition and give us cover to get into a better position to protect the people of Gaza without a major military clash with Israel and others in the Middle East.

If Biden just abruptly suspended military assistance right now, I think things would get a lot worse for the people in Gaza and Palestinians in the West Bank and other areas the Israeli's want to land grab. I think that would in turn lead to military interventions that would lead to a global war. Putin and Xi are sitting with their popcorn ready as I type this.

Maybe the protestors should change the focus from Israel/Gaza to just general de-escalation. Ukraine, Gaza, China, we need protests to force us to solve these problems before these little fires lead to a big fire and we get into a world war, even if the outcome is less than any of us want.

We all know the current path is towards WWIII. Might as well start protesting it ahead of time.

samiam5211 said:

Maybe the protestors should change the focus from Israel/Gaza to just general de-escalation. Ukraine, Gaza, China, we need protests to force us to solve these problems before these little fires lead to a big fire and we get into a world war, even if the outcome is less than any of us want.

We all know the current path is towards WWIII. Might as well start protesting it ahead of time.

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As things stand right now, we're a long way from the brink. That said, with multiple nuclear powers currently in an active conflict, I agree it could change to that trajectory in a hurry.

I'm all for de-escelation, but it has to be reasonable and somewhat equitable. What Russia would settle for is far from that. As for Israel, I have no idea what would work outside of a 2 state solution.

LA - L.A. said:

Are they really, or have they been infiltrated by people who are sabotaging their efforts and stealing all of the attention?

I think the answer is they have been infiltrated by people who are are sabotaging their efforts and stealing all of the attention which leaves people with the mistaken impression that the majority of the protesters are now working against their own goals.

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This is exactly what I’ve been trying to say. Some of the people responsible for the horrible optics are student protesters and some are not. I have been berated in this thread for saying exactly this.

LA - L.A. said:

Please provide sources reporting on significant vandalism at USC, UCLA, Columbia, and Portland state. I've only read about minor instances of graffiti and littering, but nothing about any significant vandalism.

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I’m not going to parse whether vandalism is significant with you. The reports are out there. There was destruction of cameras and graffiti inside some of the buildings. ABC has a running page on it. You should start there. There are other sources as well.


I do find it interesting that you demand proof from me, but others are not asked for proof of what they say.

DaveXA said:

As things stand right now, we're a long way from the brink. That said, with multiple nuclear powers currently in an active conflict, I agree it could change to that trajectory in a hurry.

I'm all for de-escelation, but it has to be reasonable and somewhat equitable. What Russia would settle for is far from that. As for Israel, I have no idea what would work outside of a 2 state solution.

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I think there is zero chance Netanyahu will go for a 2-state solution, at least not now, maybe after the election if Trump loses. He is trying to get Trump elected, knowing all pressure from the US will go away if that happens. Also, Hamas seems to not desire a ceasefire either at this point.

MT15 said:

I think there is zero chance Netanyahu will go for a 2-state solution, at least not now, maybe after the election if Trump loses. He is trying to get Trump elected, knowing all pressure from the US will go away if that happens. Also, Hamas seems to not desire a ceasefire either at this point.

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I don't understand Biden's reluctance to go after Netanyahu. He is a Trump type, and clashed with Obama. I don't get why you wouldn't take the line we support Israel, but let me tell you the 9000 ways Netanyahu sucks.

J-DONK said:

I don't understand Biden's reluctance to go after Netanyahu. He is a Trump type, and clashed with Obama. I don't get why you wouldn't take the line we support Israel, but let me tell you the 9000 ways Netanyahu sucks.

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I think he will get there, but he’s trying to work it behind the scenes at this point. He’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. Thanks to Netanyahu the far right extremists are in a lot of powerful positions in their government right now. Israel really needs to hold elections ASAP.

MT15 said:

This is exactly what I’ve been trying to say. Some of the people responsible for the horrible optics are student protesters and some are not. I have been berated in this thread for saying exactly this.

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That's not what I said. I've still not seen any credible source that specifically reports on a verified incident of any student protester having committed violence that was not connected to fending off an unprovoked attack. There's a lot of people saying it's happened, but I have not seen one incident that has been verified to be true.

Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, just means I have seen anything that gets me to accept the talk as a matter of actual fact.

MT15 said:

I’m not going to parse whether vandalism is significant with you. The reports are out there. There was destruction of cameras and graffiti inside some of the buildings. ABC has a running page on it. You should start there. There are other sources as well.

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I checked out the ABC running page. This is the only reported act of vandalism not at Columbia that I found in it. It's referencing Portland State University.

Authorities say that officers encountered acts of vandalism, and one suspect deployed a fire extinguisher at an officer during an altercation.

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That does not support the notion that there's any trend of any significant vandalism breaking out at the protests.

There's always some graffiti and littering level of vandalism at every protest that has ever existed that no one voiced any real concern about. That's the difference between significant and insignificant vandalism.

MT15 said:

College protests updates: Police begin dismantling University of Chicago encampment

Protests have broken out at colleges and universities across the country in connection with the war in Gaza.

abcnews.go.com

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The only reference to vandalism I could find in the source above is at Columbia. We all know that significant vandalism occurred there.

MT15 said:

I do find it interesting that you demand proof from me, but others are not asked for proof of what they say.

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I haven't seen anyone else make definitively factual claims in which they didn't at some point provide a source for their claims or that I myself have read things that support their claims.

You have been making statements of fact that I haven't seen confirmed or verified anywhere, so I asked for where you got your information so I could check them out for myself. You gave me two sources and I checked them out.

It's a simple as that. There's really nothing inconsistent or interesting about it. It's what I do.

MT15 said:

I think he will get there, but he’s trying to work it behind the scenes at this point. He’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. Thanks to Netanyahu the far right extremists are in a lot of powerful positions in their government right now. Israel really needs to hold elections ASAP.

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I was just thinking about how he needs to thread the needle very carefully regarding all this.. and low and behold came across this

So here are some quotes I have pulled from the ABC running update page:

Threats to NYU administration:
“The president said things escalated on Wednesday when a group of people from a May Day march came to the walkway and got into altercations.

The May Day incident and other issues, including threats leveled at NYU administrators, led the school to call the NYPD, according to Mills.

"The university’s senior leadership and I were compelled to conclude that we could not tolerate the risk of violence any longer and that we could not responsibly or in good conscience wait until something drastically worse were to happen in order to act. We needed to bring this to a close," she said.”

USC implies the prior existence of the following violations, by saying that further violations will result in disciplinary action.

"Please be aware that any further violation of university policies - including but not limited to the university's policies against camping, amplified sound, defying DPS directives, vandalism, harassments, bullying, and theft of property - will result in further discipline up to expulsion as well as an immediate ban from campus," the email obtained by ABC News said.”

Portland State:

Earlier in the day, Oregon Gov. Tina Kotek released a statement condemning vandalism reported at the PSU Library.

“I fully condemn the criminal actions taken Thursday morning that resulted in the burning of 15 Portland Police Bureau cars, endangering first responders and the surrounding community," Kotek said, adding, "This includes the acts of vandalism seen this week at the Portland State University library and against nearby businesses."

UCLA vandalism: