Israel vs Hamas (3 Viewers)

Heathen said:

I think that the point is that if military funding is being used to continue to slaughter innocent people and illegally take land...

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And that point is addressed by putting conditions on the aid and funding provided to Israel.

For instance, providing them with only defensive weapons like the Iron Dome. Making it clear that if they continue to do certain things, then they will lose some to all of the aid and funds.

I'm not talking about what has or hasn't been done to date, what I'm saying is that someone can be supportive of providing aid and funding to Israel, while at the same time wanting US aid and funding to not be used to harm non-combative Palestinians or any other non-combative people.

I'm one of those people. A lot of the funding and aid we send to Israel is put to good moral use protecting and helping non-combative Israelis. At the same time I also want the US to make that aid and funding conditional and used to put pressure on the Israeli government and military to treat non-combative Palestinians and all other non-combative people in a humane way.

It's not the morally black or white, all or nothing, binary issue that some keep insisting that it is.

The finger pointing is hypocritical. There isn't a person living in the US that doesn't have blood on their hands. There isn't a person living on this planet that doesn't have blood on their hands. We all, whether we know it or not, choose to benefit from things that cause the suffering and death of other non-combative people.

That is unacceptable, we can change it, and I think it needs to be changed. However, trying to take a false moral high ground over others is unjustified and counterproductive. It's a symptom and tactic of the disease of tribalism and tribalism is why what's happening in Ukraine, Israel, Africa, Europe, Asia, North America, South America and Australia keeps happening.

The solution to the plague of tribalism is not more tribalism.

LA - L.A. said:

And that point is addressed by putting conditions on the aid and funding provided to Israel.

For instance, providing them with only defensive weapons like the Iron Dome. Making it clear that if they continue to do certain things, then they will lose some to all of the aid and funds.

I'm not talking about what has or hasn't been done to date, what I'm saying is that someone can be supportive of providing aid and funding to Israel, while at the same time wanting US aid and funding to not be used to harm non-combative Palestinians or any other non-combative people.

I'm one of those people. A lot of the funding and aid we send to Israel is put to good moral use protecting and helping non-combative Israelis. At the same time I also want the US to make that aid and funding conditional and used to put pressure on the Israeli government and military to treat non-combative Palestinians and all other non-combative people in a humane way.

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I think we're saying much of the same thing. I don't see much of anything here I don't agree with.

I will say a caveat is that I don't agree with the amount of funding we send to Israel and the level to which they influence our government's spending and policy decisions (IE AIPAC), but that's a different subject..

LA - L.A. said:

It's not the morally black or white, all or nothing, binary issue that some keep insisting that it is.

The finger pointing is hypocritical. There isn't a person living in the US that doesn't have blood on their hands. There isn't a person living on this planet that doesn't have blood on their hands. We all, whether we know it or not, choose to benefit from things that cause the suffering and death of other non-combative people.

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I'm not sure where it was stated otherwise.

LA - L.A. said:

That is unacceptable, we can change it, and I think it needs to be changed. However, trying to take a false moral high ground over others is unjustified and counterproductive. It's a symptom and tactic of the disease of tribalism and tribalism is why what's happening in Ukraine, Israel, Africa, Europe, Asia, North America, South America and Australia keeps happening.

The solution to the plague of tribalism is not more tribalism.

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I guess I don't know what you're getting at with saying that some people are trying to create this 'false moral high ground over others'. That certainly has never been my intention, nor do I think it's the intention of anyone who sees what's happening in Gaza and is disgusted by it.

Maybe where the confusion lies is in the wording of what one disagrees with being misunderstood..?..I'm just spitballing. I think that the US doing things like expediting funding congressionally to a country committing a genocide during that event is inherently a bad thing - and in this situation I'm not sure how it's not more of a bad than a good thing. People are going to disagree very strongly with our tax dollars being used for these purposes, especially so openly and for such a long period of time. That's just the reality.

But of course these things aren't simply black or white or moral or immoral in a vacuum. No where did I say cut off funding to Israel completely. But I think we have to be strategic, and doing what was done above - for example, in bypassing Congress to send more military aid to Israel during that specific point in time - is not something that makes any sense if caring mostly about innocent lives in Gaza was in the cards, just my opinion. And that's one example of where an objection on moral grounds could be argued.

Tribalism is a pretty core part of our biology, but I'd agree that being cognizant of it and working to lessen it is a great first step. Think it will be a sort of never ending goal, but worth it.

Bibi is mad...

GrandAdmiral said:

Bibi is mad...

Israel cancels Washington visit after US allows UN Gaza ceasefire resolution to pass | CNN

Tensions between the US and Israel were exposed on Monday when Washington stood aside and allowed the UN Security Council to pass a resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.

www.cnn.com

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Which tells me that he doesn't give a damn about the hostages, he wants to eliminate the Palestinians...FULL STOP.

Bibi gotta go, and his cronies too.

The Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is facing one of the most serious threats yet to his coalition government after the country’s supreme court ordered an end to government subsidies from Monday for many ultra-Orthodox men who do not serve in the army.

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The two ultra-Orthodox parties in Netanyahu’s religious-nationalist coalition, United Torah Judaism and Shas, denounced the ruling as a “mark of Cain”. Aryeh Deri, the head of Shas, called the court’s decision “unprecedented bullying of Torah students in the Jewish state”.

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If the ultra-Orthodox parties leave the government, the country would be forced into new elections, and Netanyahu is trailing significantly in the polls.

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And the coup de grace....LOL.

Last Saturday, Israel’s Sephardi chief rabbi, Yitzhak Yosef, said Haredim would leave Israel en masse if their exemption from compulsory service was not renewed.

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This is still about Hamas right...?

zztop said:

Israelis stage largest protest since war began to increase pressure on Netanyahu

Hostages' families believe time is running out, and they are getting more vocal about their displeasure with Netanyahu.

apnews.com

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Yeah, Bibi needs to go, but I'm not so sure they'll choose someone much better. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

DaveXA said:

Yeah, Bibi needs to go, but I'm not so sure they'll choose someone much better. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

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No matter what happens, they'll be a coalition government unless the Israeli people get the act together in electing the Knesset.

fork this dude...

DaveXA said:

Yeah, Bibi needs to go, but I'm not so sure they'll choose someone much better. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

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If they choose someone that isn't trying to hang on to stay out of prison, then he'll be better than Bibi.

"In response to the killings, World Central Kitchen suspended its operations delivering vital food aid in Gaza" so... Mission accomplished

zztop said:

"In response to the killings, World Central Kitchen suspended its operations delivering vital food aid in Gaza" so... Mission accomplished

7 World Central Kitchen aid workers killed by Israeli airstrike in Gaza

"Unfortunately, in the last day there was a tragic case of our forces unintentionally hitting innocent people in the Gaza Strip," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said.

www.cbsnews.com

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Aid workers and supplies have been hit way too often with precision weapons for me to believe it's honestly "unintentional."

The Israeli civilian that is considered the mother of the settlement movement has been organizing protesters to block aid from getting into Gaza. They literally have screamed "not a loaf of bread for any of them." The ruling party of Israel represents those Israelis.

LA - L.A. said:

Aid workers and supplies have been hit way too often with precision weapons for me to believe it's honestly "unintentional."

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Yeah, IDF 'accidentally' takes out aid workers, aid gets suspended, more people in Gaza starve to death and so it is a win-win for the IDF