Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights per draft opinion (Update: Dobbs opinion official) (5 Viewers)

Incumbent said:

Pastor at Trump rally tonight: “This election is part of a spiritual battle. There are demonic forces at play. But judgement is coming. When Trump becomes the 47th president, there will retribution against all those who have promoted evil in this country.”

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Battle lines are literally being drawn on all sides of all issues across the planet at every level. The rhetorical ramp up to physical conflict is spreading and escalating. Right now, I don't see the world working through our sociopolitical issues in a relatively peaceful way. Unless an overwhelming majority of individuals across the planet have a sea change, I think we are going to soon spiral into an unprecedented global military conflict.

A lot of R women would rather vote away their rights than have an "evil " Democrat in office (presidential or otherwise). because it's always someone else's problem (until it's not). that's why when abortion rights are put up for individual votes, the abortion rights win. because they don't have to make their husbands or father's mad they voted opposite of them for a candidate.

LA - L.A. said:

Battle lines are literally being drawn on all sides of all issues across the planet at every level. The rhetorical ramp up to physical conflict is spreading and escalating. Right now, I don't see the world working through our sociopolitical issues in a relatively peaceful way. Unless an overwhelming majority of individuals across the planet have a sea change, I think we are going to soon spiral into an unprecedented global military conflict.

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While I share that concern, it's particularly troubling that this is becoming normal speech within the circles of support for a leading candidate for POTUS, including from that candidate, himself.

Christofascism is a very real threat that we shouldn't downplay.

Incumbent said:

While I share that concern, it's particularly troubling that this is becoming normal speech within the circles of support for a leading candidate for POTUS, including from that candidate, himself.

Christofascism is a very real threat that we shouldn't downplay.

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I'm no fan of Trump or his followers and make no excuses for their actions. I agree Christofascism is a real threat. I went to a Catholic high school in the early 80's and had a front row seat for the beginning of the American Catholic church's descent into fascism.

It's not my intention to downplay it. I'm not saying the world is getting to be a very unstable and unsafe place, so Christofascism is not a problem. I'm saying the world is getting to be a very unstable and unsafe place and Chrstofascism is a very real and big part of what's making it unstable and unsafe. This is not a new problem either. Christofascism through the ages has been the cause of more mass murder and oppression than any other philosphy, religion or ideology.

Christofascism is not synomous with Christianity. It is a subset of Christianiaty. It is also not the only real treath in the world right now, but it's defintely one of them.

Incumbent said:

Pastor at Trump rally tonight: “This election is part of a spiritual battle. There are demonic forces at play. But judgement is coming. When Trump becomes the 47th president, there will retribution against all those who have promoted evil in this country.”

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Just be aware that some of these "pastors" are really cult leaders and have little to no credibility in many, if not most Christian circles.

LA - L.A. said:

I'm no fan of Trump or his followers and make no excuses for their actions. I agree Christofascism is a real threat. I went to a Catholic high school in the early 80's and had a front row seat for the beginning of the American Catholic church's descent into fascism.

It's not my intention to downplay it. I'm not saying the world is getting to be a very unstable and unsafe place, so Christofascism is not a problem. I'm saying the world is getting to be a very unstable and unsafe place and Chrstofascism is a very real and big part of what's making it unstable and unsafe. This is not a new problem either. Christofascism through the ages has been the cause of more mass murder and oppression than any other philosphy, religion or ideology.

Christofascism is not synomous with Christianity. It is a subset of Christianiaty. It is also not the only real treath in the world right now, but it's defintely one of them.

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Looks like we are largely in agreement.

While it's true that not all Christians embrace Christofascism, I think the lines of distinction are much more blurred than others seem to. When you have religious schemes based on faith, obedience, and believing that the words of figureheads are straight from a diety, the groundwork is laid to radicalize people very quickly, and get the meek to follow the rabble-rousers wherever they lead them. I see Christianity more on a spectrum that goes from the extremes of universal love and peace to the violent, brimstone rhetoric, and an impressionable, transient middle. A lot of really kind sweet people don't think women should have access to reproductive care or that homosexuals should be allowed to legally marry, because of the Bible. "Christian soldiers" can be some of the nicest people you'll ever meet.

When Dusty Deevers won his race to become an Oklahoma state senator on Tuesday night, he wasted no time in making sure his new constituents knew what he stood for.

“Here in Oklahoma, it’s time to abolish abortion, abolish pornography, abolish the state income tax and give power and equal representation back to the people!” the Republican posted on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter.

Deevers’ use of the term “abolish abortion” is no mere rhetorical flourish. On his campaign website, Deevers has identified himself as an “abortion abolitionist” – an adherent of a hardline, fringe segment of the anti-abortion movement that, in Oklahoma and elsewhere, is growing in the wake of the fall of Roe v Wade.

Opposition to abortion is rooted in the belief that fetuses are people, worthy of rights and protections. But the mainstream “pro-life” movement posits that abortion patients should not be punished, since they’re seen as the bamboozled victims of nefarious doctors and the “abortion industry”. Typically, abortion bans target abortion providers, not patients.

Abortion “abolitionists,” on the other hand, hold what they believe to be a more ideologically consistent stance: if a fetus is a person, then abortion is tantamount to murder. And patients should be punished accordingly.

Roe’s overturning has made a broader range of anti-abortion ideas look acceptable, as well as cast a spotlight on the contradictions and limits in current anti-abortion law, said Mary Ziegler, a University of California, Davis School of Law professor who studies the legal history of reproduction. In turn, that’s emboldened the abolitionists.…….

Incumbent said:

Looks like we are largely in agreement.

While it's true that not all Christians embrace Christofascism, I think the lines of distinction are much more blurred than others seem to. When you have religious schemes based on faith, obedience, and believing that the words of figureheads are straight from a diety, the groundwork is laid to radicalize people very quickly, and get the meek to follow the rabble-rousers wherever they lead them. I see Christianity more on a spectrum that goes from the extremes of universal love and peace to the violent, brimstone rhetoric, and an impressionable, transient middle. A lot of really kind sweet people don't think women should have access to reproductive care or that homosexuals should be allowed to marry, because of the Bible. "Christian soldiers" can be some of the nicest people you'll ever meet.

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There's some truth to that, but it's really not descriptive of quiet, reserved Christians who would rather live and let live and keep the Church out of politics. You just don't hear a lot from them because they are quiet and yes, some simply don't like conflict.

I mean, speaking for myself as a Christan, I'm not exactly the quietest here, but I'm definitely a home body and I'm pretty independent minded. Most Christians would definitely call me liberal, but I call political positions like I see it and don't really care what people think about it.

The Christians I associate with, we have a lot in common, and none of us (well, except that one MAGA Trumper) care much for Trump at all, and would rather our country's religious rules stay out of politics. But that me and the people I know here. I'm sure your mileage will vary depending on where you are.

Incumbent said:

Looks like we are largely in agreement.

While it's true that not all Christians embrace Christofascism, I think the lines of distinction are much more blurred than others seem to. When you have religious schemes based on faith, obedience, and believing that the words of figureheads are straight from a diety, the groundwork is laid to radicalize people very quickly, and get the meek to follow the rabble-rousers wherever they lead them. I see Christianity more on a spectrum that goes from the extremes of universal love and peace to the violent, brimstone rhetoric, and an impressionable, transient middle. A lot of really kind sweet people don't think women should have access to reproductive care or that homosexuals should be allowed to marry, because of the Bible. "Christian soldiers" can be some of the nicest people you'll ever meet.

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No insult or belittlement intended toward anyone's, but most religions are inherently authoritarian to some degree which is why I'm not a religious person.

LA - L.A. said:

Christofascism is not synomous with Christianity. It is a subset of Christianiaty. It is also not the only real treath in the world right now, but it's defintely one of them.

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Well, Christianity was forced on what we know as the Western hemisphere through conquest, slavery, oppression, by 3 different empires, so...

LA - L.A. said:

No insult or belittlement intended toward anyone's, but most religions are inherently authoritarian to some degree which is why I'm not a religious person.

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Eh, authority has more to do with human nature than religion. It's one of the primary characteristics of any collective group, regardless of beliefs.

DaveXA said:

There's some truth to that, but it's really not descriptive of quiet, reserved Christians who would rather live and let live and keep the Church out of politics. You just don't hear a lot from them because they are quiet and yes, some simply don't like conflict.

I mean, speaking for myself as a Christan, I'm not exactly the quietest here, but I'm definitely a home body and I'm pretty independent minded. Most Christians would definitely call me liberal, but I call political positions like I see it and don't really care what people think about it.

The Christians I associate with, we have a lot in common, and none of us (well, except that one MAGA Trumper) care much for Trump at all, and would rather our country's religious rules stay out of politics. But that me and the people I know here. I'm sure your mileage will vary depending on where you are.

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I really think we are speaking to different points. Yes, there are some truly loving and tolerant Christians, who don't think their beliefs should be legislated on to others. I'm fortunate to know a few people like that, and would have described myself that way before walking away from organized Christian religion. There's much I still like about the idea of who Jesus was.

I know a few people who are the angry types, warning about their vengeful God coming for the sinners (which is everybody they don't agree with). And then a lot of the sweet, Jesusy folks who love everybody but think America should be a "Christian nation", and our laws should reflect the teachings of the Bible; which is, of course, cherry-picked to discriminate against particular behaviors, as taught by their church leaders. "Love the sinner, hate the sin" - where "hate the sin" translates into legislatively ruling over others on religious grounds. I combine these groups together because the desired outcomes are the same even if the approaches are quite different.

I'm concerned about the sizable number of Christians who will go along with somebody like Trump, completely at odds with who Jesus was described to be. We have the data and the anecdotal - we know it's a lot of people. Tens of millions. This isn't an outlier group.

Trump will once again get a lot of votes from people identifying as Christian and I think that's a serious concern. These are the people who pose a rising threat to our democracy, and to the lives and liberties of many U.S. citizens.

Incumbent said:

I'm concerned about the sizable number of Christians who will go along with somebody like Trump, completely at odds with who Christ was described to be. We have the data and the anecdotal - we know it's a lot of people. Tens of millions. This isn't an outlier group.

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As I've said many times, they are not voting for Trump because he's Christ like, they are voting for Trump because they think he's the stubborn king of the West, part of the prophesies in Revelations. And just like Israel was forcibly established post WWII to "fulfill" that part of the prophesy, they will make Trump the stubborn ruler of the West, and believe they are that much closer to see the return of their messiah. These people cannot wait to see the world burn, because they think they're going to be carried to this ideal heaven while everyone else burns in hell.

Christians like to talk about all of the "love", and conveniently forget all of the ugliness, but you cannot have one without the other.

SystemShock said:

As I've said many times, they are not voting for Trump because he's Christ like, they are voting for Trump because they think he's the stubborn king of the West, part of the prophesies in Revelations. And just like Israel was forcibly established post WWII to "fulfill" that part of the prophesy, they will make Trump the stubborn ruler of the West, and believe they are that much closer to see the return of their messiah. These people cannot wait to see the world burn, because they think they're going to be carried to this ideal heaven while everyone else burns in hell.

Christians like to talk about all of the "love", and conveniently forget all of the ugliness, but you cannot have one without the other.

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Fulfilling prophecies is certainly an explanation for some. But most Christians don't have a clue about that stuff. They unfortunately rely more on what their misguided leaders have to say on the subject.

Incumbent said:

Looks like we are largely in agreement.

While it's true that not all Christians embrace Christofascism, I think the lines of distinction are much more blurred than others seem to. When you have religious schemes based on faith, obedience, and believing that the words of figureheads are straight from a diety, the groundwork is laid to radicalize people very quickly, and get the meek to follow the rabble-rousers wherever they lead them. I see Christianity more on a spectrum that goes from the extremes of universal love and peace to the violent, brimstone rhetoric, and an impressionable, transient middle. A lot of really kind sweet people don't think women should have access to reproductive care or that homosexuals should be allowed to legally marry, because of the Bible. "Christian soldiers" can be some of the nicest people you'll ever meet.

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You and I define kind and sweet very differently.

Unless you mean "saccharine sweet to your face".

Optimus Prime said:

There will be (if there hasn't been already) another Texan woman in Kate Cox's situation

But this time the woman will be the wife, daughter, granddaughter, niece or mistress of a hardline, far right judge or politician or millionaire CEO

and when that happens (if it hasn't already) the woman in question will get her abortion just fine (just quietly)

And if it is discovered and outed......so what?

"Rules for thee, not for me" or "this situation is different" (The quiet part: "the difference being this time it's happening to someone I care about"

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MT15 said:

Yes this is exactly right. My husband said that they will change their tune if it happens to someone they love. And my reply was this - nope, the woman they love will quietly get their abortion out of state or out of country if they succeed in imposing a national ban. They won’t have to play by the rules they want to impose on everyone else. Their loved one won’t have to see their health debated by strangers on courts and declared that the risk isn’t that great, against their own doctor’s judgement.

This is as sure as the sun rising in the east.

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Taurus said:

You and I define kind and sweet very differently.

Unless you mean "saccharine sweet to your face".

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Sure, as they are perceived. I don't think it's a lack of sincerity, though, but rather a confidence arising from their gullibility, that it's actually loving to be opposed to, for example, abortion and homosexuality. They want everybody to be saved and know the love of their Lord! I'm not making the point that it's okay or tolerable.

Incumbent said:

Sure, as they are perceived. I don't think it's a lack of sincerity, though, but rather a confidence arising from their gullibility, that it's actually loving to be opposed to, for example, abortion and homosexuality. They want everybody to be saved and know the love of their Lord! I'm not making the point that it's okay or tolerable.

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Being an atheist, I'm extremely familiar with that attitude.