All Things LGBTQ+ (2 Viewers)

I said this on like page 1 of this thread but I will say it again.

Unless anyone can point to a situation where an individual changed their gender, in order to gain athletic prowess over their competition, then the whole argument is moot.

Because otherwise, the idea that a trans child is going to destroy the sanctity and fair nature of play is ridiculous.

Shaquille O’Neal was 6’ 6” and over 200 pounds at 13. Did the other moms in Texas scream because he was tossing their kid into the third row on every rebound? Did all of those kids quit and have their love of sports ruined for life because they got dog walked by Shaq? No they more than likely were told that people were born with different skills and come in all shapes and sizes and that life isn’t fair.

What I find curious, is only male to female changes are being questioned. Because of the unfair nature to the other girls, I suppose?

But what about girl to boy transitions? Why isn’t anyone worried about those? Those kids are at a massive disadvantage and basically can write off competition sports. What about them? They are just out of luck I guess? So do they still get to play with girls while they are taking their blockers and testosterone? Sounds like a competitive advantage to me. But we go with what we were born with amirite?

So what is the answer?

Is the answer to tell trans children to pound sand and take up coed activities only? That doesn’t sound like the child sports charters in this country to me.

But I guess as long as the trans child is the one being negatively affected its ok.

cuddlemonkey said:

The problem is that your arguments about this one single issue are completely dismissive of the experiences of trans people,

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How is my argument dismissive of the experiences of trans people? And since you want to use that angle, then explain as well how is your argument not dismissive of the experiences of females of our species?

cuddlemonkey said:

which is why you're getting labeled as transphobic. Don't like the label? Stop saying transphobic shirt.

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So facts are now "transphobic shirt"? Stating the obvious fact that a transgender woman is not a female of our species is "transphobic shirt"?

You are displaying the same extremism than the religious zealots, just from a different point of view. It s much easier to label the speaker than try to defeat the argument.

If you have any proof that a male who transitions gender biologically becomes a female of our species, by all means, present it. Otherwise...

coldseat said:

This is silly. I'm part of the "cis tribe". I didn't know that meant setting up a stawman and believing it. I just don't accept false arguments.

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I thought "gay" was now a gender too? It gets really confusing. In any case, what I meant to point out, is that you are part of the LGBTQ+ tribe.

coldseat said:

Woman are woman,

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That's not a simple statement anymore as you make it out to be, is it?

coldseat said:

But you sure are committed to telling trans woman what they are.

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Whether I tell them or not, fact is, they are not female of the species. Or do you believe otherwise? If you have any proof that a male of our species can biologically become a female of our species, by all means, present it.

coldseat said:

Maybe look in the mirror.

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And see what? A person who can treat situations on a case by case basis, instead of blanket group-think?

CoolBrees said:

Unless anyone can point to a situation where an individual changed their gender, in order to gain athletic prowess over their competition, then the whole argument is moot.

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No, it isn't. The argument is not about intentions to get competitive advantage, but about simply having a competitive advantage.

CoolBrees said:

Because otherwise, the idea that a trans child is going to destroy the sanctity and fair nature of play is ridiculous.

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Statements like this one don't help.

CoolBrees said:

Shaquille O’Neal was 6’ 6” and over 200 pounds at 13. Did the other moms in Texas scream because he was tossing their kid into the third row on every rebound? Did all of those kids quit and have their love of sports ruined for life because they got dog walked by Shaq? No they more than likely were told that people were born with different skills and come in all shapes and sizes and that life isn’t fair.

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I don't know what the other moms did, or what the other kids did, and you don't know either, but in any case, yes, it is unfair that a 6'6" 200lb 13 year old played basketball against much smaller kids.

CoolBrees said:

What I find curious, is only male to female changes are being questioned. Because of the unfair nature to the other girls, I suppose?

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I thought it was very obvious, but yes, that is exactly why. Although there are other issues with the other transition, such as allowing some individuals to use controlled performance enhancing drugs and not others.

CoolBrees said:

But what about girl to boy transitions? Why isn’t anyone worried about those? Those kids are at a massive disadvantage and basically can write off competition sports.
What about them? They are just out of luck I guess? So do they still get to play with girls while they are taking their blockers and testosterone? Sounds like a competitive advantage to me. But we go with what we were born with amirite?

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Exactly. That will also be alleviated by separate trans leagues; but you rarely hear that side of the argument, because, in my point of view, we are too busy telling females of our species what they are and what they need to tolerate.

CoolBrees said:

So what is the answer?

Is the answer to tell trans children to pound sand and take up coed activities only? That doesn’t sound like the child sports charters in this country to me.

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That sounds bad... although we do tell other children to pound sand and don't play at all already...

CoolBrees said:

But I guess as long as the trans child is the one being negatively affected its ok.

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We can turn that around: as long as the female child is the one being negatively affected its ok.

SystemShock said:

I thought "gay" was now a gender too? It gets really confusing. In any case, what I meant to point out, is that you are part of the LGBTQ+ tribe.


That's not a simple statement anymore as you make it out to be, is it?


Whether I tell them or not, fact is, they are not female of the species. Or do you believe otherwise? If you have any proof that a male of our species can biologically become a female of our species, by all means, present it.


And see what? A person who can treat situations on a case by case basis, instead of blanket group-think?

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Yeah, I'm not doing this stupid and pointless back and forth game with you. You made a dumb comment, no need to dig the grave deeper by doubling down and making more dumb comments.

@SystemShock

Since you were nice enough to respond I will in kind.

You are one of my favorite posters - especially about religion- but you got this one wrong man.

First, I am a bit confused because you seem to vacillate between college/ professional levels and kids sports. So please forgive me if I misstate your argument.

For example, you will post a pic of women’s rugby but speak about 8 year olds. You talk about a college swimmer but responded to me about children playing on their little kids teams.

To wit, since when did kids sports start being about competitive advantages? They’re kids, they are out there having fun, learning teamwork and getting exercise.

Maybe you are speaking about competitive kids sports, like club teams? I can tell you in the most popular American youth sport, soccer, your physical size has almost nothing to do with how good you are.

But hypothetically, if my 8th grader came home and didn’t make the basketball team because of a trans child making it instead, what kind of real world example and I setting for my child saying they can feel slighted and cheated because of someone else’s biology?

Are they going to use that as their excuse later in life?

I would hope not.

No, I would tell them that if they want to make the team they need to find out from the coach what they need to work on and work harder.

So what if some kid dominates in youth sports. There is ALWAYS a kid who dominates and it has nothing to do with their gender. I coached 4th grade girls basketball and only 1 team scored more than 12 points in a game - they had a girl who scored like 35 on my team ad we got beat by almost 50. They had one hell of a competitive advantage. She was like 3’ tall but could dribble with her head up and with both hands so she got to the rim at will. At 8. Not because she had ovaries.

Honestly, I don’t know if you have kids but if you are getting upset because your kid’s team is losing in sports you need some perspective.

And if you are talking about professional leagues, I agree that the League has the right to set their own rules as they are private businesses. But until Div 2 men’s players are going through transition to be able to make the WNBA I don’t think there is a problem. Like at all.

SystemShock said:

How is my argument dismissive of the experiences of trans people? And since you want to use that angle, then explain as well how is your argument not dismissive of the experiences of females of our species?

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I didn't make an argument about anyone's experience.

SystemShock said:

So facts are now "transphobic shirt"? Stating the obvious fact that a transgender woman is not a female of our species is "transphobic shirt"?

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Saying things like, "I don't want to dictate who anyone is or what to believe about themselves. But what we are, is what we are" and then hypocritically claiming finding a way to be accepting of transwomen is "yet another form of telling women what they are (speaking of) and controlling them" is transphobic.

SystemShock said:

You are displaying the same extremism than the religious zealots, just from a different point of view. It s much easier to label the speaker than try to defeat the argument.

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Your argument has been accurately summarized and addressed repeatedly. The fact that you keep dragging the carcass into view doesn't mean the horse isn't dead.

SystemShock said:

If you have any proof that a male who transitions gender biologically becomes a female of our species, by all means, present it. Otherwise...

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This is irrelevant. Biological sex isn't the sole determiner of gender identity.

Thought this was a good article
=======================

Aug. 29 (UPI) -- The newly formed "Diocese of the Southern Cross" has broken away from the Anglican Church of Australia to form a denomination committed to a highly conservative position on sexuality and marriage equality.

Global Anglican Futures Conference, the association supporting the breakaway denomination, claim Anglican bishops "were unable to uphold the Bible's ancient teaching on marriage and sexual ethics," making their defection necessary.

One question Australians, the majority of whom support marriage equality, may ask is -- why is sexuality such a significant issue for the Christians who have left to form this group, and many conservative Christians generally?

According to GAFCON, the answer is "orthodoxy." In the sense used here, orthodoxy refers to "right teaching" (this is broader than the word's more specific meaning in Eastern Orthodox Christianity). Permitting anything other than heterosexual relations or marriage, GAFCON argues, is a departure from Christianity's long-held orthodox stance.

However, this understanding of orthodoxy is not "ancient teaching," but new.

Historically, Christian orthodoxy had nothing to do with sexuality.........

So the argument that sexuality has always been central to Christian orthodoxy is shaky. Yet, it seems that for some conservative Christians, this view of sexuality has become more important than doctrines that really are central to orthodoxy, traditionally understood.

This leaves us with our initial question unanswered -- why is sexuality so important for this group of Christians now?

One answer is to be found in the work of the 20th century French academic Michel Foucault.............

cuddlemonkey said:

I didn't make an argument about anyone's experience.

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Yes, you did. I quote:

cuddlemonkey said:

The problem is that your arguments about this one single issue are completely dismissive of the experiences of trans people,

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cuddlemonkey said:

Saying things like, "I don't want to dictate who anyone is or what to believe about themselves. But what we are, is what we are"

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How is that transphobic? Please explain. What we are is what we are, if you are born with a penis, testicles, and a prostate and produce semen, what you are is a male of the species. If you are born with or develop sexual dysphoria, you are a person with sexual dysphoria. What is the problem with that?

And while you are at it, what exactly is your definition of phobia?

cuddlemonkey said:

and then hypocritically claiming finding a way to be accepting of transwomen is "yet another form of telling women what they are (speaking of) and controlling them" is transphobic.

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Because it is another form of telling women what they are, finding this way to accept someone at the expense of someone else.

cuddlemonkey said:

Your argument has been accurately summarized and addressed repeatedly. The fact that you keep dragging the carcass into view doesn't mean the horse isn't dead.

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No, it hasn't. It's been labeled and dismissed because not 100% complaint, but not addressed.

cuddlemonkey said:

This is irrelevant. Biological sex isn't the sole determiner of gender identity.

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It is not irrelevant no matter how many times you say it is. Yet again, we are talking about the male-female division of sports, which is indeed biological, not mental.

coldseat said:

Yeah, I'm not doing this stupid and pointless back and forth game with you. You made a dumb comment, no need to dig the grave deeper by doubling down and making more dumb comments.

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Ok, so I made a dumb comment. I clarified what I meant, if you don't accept my clarification, tell me why, instead of just dismissing any further comments as "dumb" and avoiding addressing the point.

.

CoolBrees said:

@SystemShock

Since you were nice enough to respond I will in kind.

You are one of my favorite posters - especially about religion- but you got this one wrong man.

First, I am a bit confused because you seem to vacillate between college/ professional levels and kids sports. So please forgive me if I misstate your argument.

For example, you will post a pic of women’s rugby but speak about 8 year olds. You talk about a college swimmer but responded to me about children playing on their little kids teams.

To wit, since when did kids sports start being about competitive advantages? They’re kids, they are out there having fun, learning teamwork and getting exercise

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I get the confusion. I confuse myself sometimes as well ... kind of hard to keep up.

CoolBrees said:

Maybe you are speaking about competitive kids sports, like club teams? I can tell you in the most popular American youth sport, soccer, your physical size has almost nothing to do with how good you are.

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One of the problems (if not the main problem) with this issue is that people cannot compartmentalize or treat situations case by case: it is either one or the other, left or right, black or white, 100% against or 100% for.

So those are 2 different conversations, with some overlapping sure, but 2 different conversations.

But as you see, I am already labeled transphobic because this 1 view in 1 particular issue about the entirety of the transgender discussion.

CoolBrees said:

But hypothetically, if my 8th grader came home and didn’t make the basketball team because of a trans child making it instead, what kind of real world example and I setting for my child saying they can feel slighted and cheated because of someone else’s biology?

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Case by case.

8th grade, that's usually 14 years old, right? So that's well into puberty, if not at the end.

If your child is a male of the species:
Most likely than not, that is not going to happen, unless the transgender child has been allowed to use performance enhancing drugs; and yes, in the case of woman to man transgender, what people call "gender reaffirming treatment" is indeed "performance enhancing drugs" in the world of sports (testosterone). Without testosterone, it'd be extremely rare that a person born female of the species would be able to compete against people born males of the species.

Side note: This is the point of the argument when someone usually brings up Serena Williams, and how she can beat 99% of males at tennis, which is an obvious fallacy; 99% of males are not professional tennis players.

So, in this case, we start with this one issue: allowing an individual to use performance enhancing drugs to bring them to a competitive level while others are not allowed to use said performance enhancing drugs.

If your child is a female of the species
Then it is a different scenario altogether. If straight up the individual transitioning doesn't take any ender reaffirming treatment, would you agree it'd be unfair to females? If they take the treatment, how much treatment is enough to bring them down to the same level as females of the species in all physiological aspects? Should the level be brought down to a median? Just enough to be within the range, and de facto make them world class athletes right off the bat?

CoolBrees said:

No, I would tell them that if they want to make the team they need to find out from the coach what they need to work on and work harder.

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Fine, but if your child is male of the species and is beaten by someone who is allowed to take performance enhancing drugs, what would you tell him?

Or if your child is a female of the species and gets run over, together with a friend of hers, by a 6'6" 230 lb person who looks like an NFL LB? Note: this is why I tell people "count the arms" when I post the pic.

CoolBrees said:

So what if some kid dominates in youth sports. There is ALWAYS a kid who dominates and it has nothing to do with their gender.

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Correct. This is yet another point in the discussion that gets distorted: we are not talking about "gender", but about the marked physical differences between males and females of the species.

CoolBrees said:

I coached 4th grade girls basketball and only 1 team scored more than 12 points in a game - they had a girl who scored like 35 on my team ad we got beat by almost 50. They had one hell of a competitive advantage. She was like 3’ tall but could dribble with her head up and with both hands so she got to the rim at will. At 8. Not because she had ovaries.

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Yet another problem in the conversation: bringing up outliers and extremes.
How many points do you think a kid with testicles would've scored? How do you think that girl would've faired against him?

And I have to ask, are you 100% sure she was 8? I ask, because ringers are a common problem in youth sports.

CoolBrees said:

Honestly, I don’t know if you have kids but if you are getting upset because your kid’s team is losing in sports you need some perspective.

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I do have kids. They don't play sports (one's a musician and the other dictator-in-training)... I don't know about getting upset, but I wouldn't be happy to see my kids lose in events that are beyond just for fun... I don't know people who are happy to lose. Maybe participate and not care about losing, but not the losing itself.

CoolBrees said:

And if you are talking about professional leagues, I agree that the League has the right to set their own rules as they are private businesses. But until Div 2 men’s players are going through transition to be able to make the WNBA I don’t think there is a problem. Like at all.

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Sure, but, do you want to wait until it gets to that point?

SystemShock said:

Yes, you did. I quote:

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My quote: "The problem is that your arguments about this one single issue are completely dismissive of the experiences of trans people,"

That is not an argument in any way about a person's life experience. It's simply me pointing out that you arguing for the life experiences of people you don't know is bullshirt.

SystemShock said:

How is that transphobic? Please explain. What we are is what we are, if you are born with a penis, testicles, and a prostate and produce semen, what you are is a male of the species. If you are born with or develop sexual dysphoria, you are a person with sexual dysphoria. What is the problem with that?

And while you are at it, what exactly is your definition of phobia?

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You are deriding and dismissing people's lived experiences based on your fear of what happens to cisgender females in sports. Someone in this conversation is failing to understand transphobia, but it's not me.

SystemShock said:

Because it is another form of telling women what they are, finding this way to accept someone at the expense of someone else.

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Nobody is being accepted at anyone else's expense.

SystemShock said:

No, it hasn't. It's been labeled and dismissed because not 100% complaint, but not addressed.

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It has been addressed repeatedly throughout this post. Your mind was made up before this conversation began. To be honest, your arguments look suspiciously like those of the religious right you seem so eager to denounce.

SystemShock said:

It is not irrelevant no matter how many times you say it is. Yet again, we are talking about the male-female division of sports, which is indeed biological, not mental.

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It's absolutely irrelevant because we aren't just discussing sports. You made blanket statements about trans people that went far beyond sports and well into everyday life for all, even those that don't compete in sports.

“Mom, for Ameera, we use they or them pronouns, we don’t say she or her. We do this because we respect Ameera for who they are.”

I sat back smiling to myself, on the verge of tears as I heard a friend carefully and thoughtfully explain my use of gender-neutral pronouns to his mother. It was the first time in my life that I didn’t feel the burden of explaining, and I was overcome with feelings of being seen, heard, and supported. My heart swelled once again when she responded with acceptance and warmth, and immediately hugged me.

It was a marked difference from some of the responses I got from friends or family when I first told them, ranging from not understanding at all, to being distracted and not really paying attention. I was speechless as I thought to myself, “Wow. This is what it feels like to be affirmed for who I really am.”

Using someone’s correct gender pronouns is about so much more than switching three or four-letter words. It’s about seeing them for who they really are. Frankly, it’s not the pronouns themselves that make me feel accepted for who I am, but rather what the use of correct pronouns represents in terms of affirming my identity. And that seemingly small pronoun shift can have a huge impact on a person’s mental health for several reasons. These are some of the ways correct pronoun use benefits my mental health, but it’s important to recognize that the reasons may be different for others.

1. It makes them feel seen for who they really are.

For most of my life, people have seen me as a girl or a woman and assumed my gender identity. When someone uses they/them pronouns, I feel like they’re acknowledging they don’t see me as a woman, and are instead seeing me the way I see myself. I felt ashamed of my true self for so long, and that bred so much self-hate and depression. Each time my correct pronouns are used, some of that hate and shame melt away.

2. It shows you respect them and their identity.

My depression always tells me that I don’t matter and that people in my life don’t really care about me. When someone puts the effort in to consciously think about using they/them pronouns for me, it makes me feel respected. Seeing people respect me enough to pause and change their old, default ways of addressing me helps me feel like people care enough to do that for me.

Subsequently, when someone continually slips up, I’m not mad about the pronoun miss, but I’m mad that they still see me as a woman, and not as someone gender nonconforming. Because if they did see me as who I really am, I wouldn’t be associated with she/her pronouns. It tells me instead of them trying to understand me truly, they’re just trying to change a word to appease me.

“Being able to become more comfortable in my gender-nonconforming skin has been one of the greatest influences on fostering positive mental health.”..........

cuddlemonkey said:

My quote: "The problem is that your arguments about this one single issue are completely dismissive of the experiences of trans people,"

That is not an argument in any way about a person's life experience.

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It is bringing it into the argument, making it part of the argument.

cuddlemonkey said:

It's simply me pointing out that you arguing for the life experiences of people you don't know is bullshirt.

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And what do you call it when you bring life experiences of people you don't know?

cuddlemonkey said:

You are deriding and dismissing people's lived experiences based on your fear of what happens to cisgender females in sports. Someone in this conversation is failing to understand transphobia, but it's not me.

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There we go again with bringing people's life experiences into the argument... but anyway, I am not dismissing or deriding anyone's life experiences.

In the same vein as your previous statement, who do you call it when you deride and ignore people's life experiences?

I understand the word phobia. Surprisingly enough, being derived from the Greek word phobos, it means the same thing in English, Spanish, French, Portuguese, and any other language that uses the term "phobia". So I am sorry to tell you, I don't have a phobia of transgender people.

cuddlemonkey said:

Nobody is being accepted at anyone else's expense.

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It is, if you shoehorn transgender women into women's sports

cuddlemonkey said:

It has been addressed repeatedly throughout this post. Your mind was made up before this conversation began. To be honest, your arguments look suspiciously like those of the religious right you seem so eager to denounce.

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If that is what honest looks to you...

My argument has absolutely nothing to do with religion. My argument is simply that the male-female division in sports is based on biological sex, for very obvious reasons, and that transgender people cannot transform into a different member of the species. If you have an actual argument against that, instead of grandstanding, I am all ears.

cuddlemonkey said:

It's absolutely irrelevant because we aren't just discussing sports.

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How can it be irrelevant when the very issue is the biological differences between males and females of the species?

cuddlemonkey said:

You made blanket statements about trans people that went far beyond sports and well into everyday life for all, even those that don't compete in sports.

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I hate to break it to you, but they happen to be the facts. If you don't like the facts or the facts offend you, well, we have a saying in MX: la verdad no ofende, pero incomoda.

SystemShock said:

It is bringing it into the argument, making it part of the argument.


And what do you call it when you bring life experiences of people you don't know?


There we go again with bringing people's life experiences into the argument... but anyway, I am not dismissing or deriding anyone's life experiences.

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Making an observation is not the same thing as making an argument.

SystemShock said:

In the same vein as your previous statement, who do you call it when you deride and ignore people's life experiences?

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Whose life experience am I ignoring?

SystemShock said:

I understand the word phobia. Surprisingly enough, being derived from the Greek word phobos, it means the same thing in English, Spanish, French, Portuguese, and any other language that uses the term "phobia". So I am sorry to tell you, I don't have a phobia of transgender people.

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I'm sure you have plenty of trans friends...

SystemShock said:

It is, if you shoehorn transgender women into women's sports

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Which isn't happening. It's a complex, ever-changing situation that needs an equitable solution and not the hysteria that people like you engage in.

SystemShock said:

If that is what honest looks to you...

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It does. Your inability to see it doesn't make it any less true.

SystemShock said:

My argument has absolutely nothing to do with religion. My argument is simply that the male-female division in sports is based on biological sex, for very obvious reasons, and that transgender people cannot transform into a different member of the species. If you have an actual argument against that, instead of grandstanding, I am all ears.

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I never said your argument was based on religion. I said your argument was reminiscent of the argument made by conservative religious types.

SystemShock said:

How can it be irrelevant when the very issue is the biological differences between males and females of the species?

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As I said, you made a blanket statement that went far beyond sports. You greatly expanded the scope of your argument, so I responded in the same manner.

SystemShock said:

I hate to break it to you, but they happen to be the facts. If you don't like the facts or the facts offend you, well, we have a saying in MX: la verdad no ofende, pero incomoda.

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If you don't want your arguments compared to those of alt-right religious nuts, maybe you shouldn't say things that sound like something Ben Shapiro would say.

Threats Against Boston Children's Hospital Leave Doctors Concerned for Family Safety

Boston Children’s Hospital is warning staff of increased threats of violence over the surgical care it offers to transgender youth.

www.nbcboston.com

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Police Investigate Bomb Threat to Boston Children's Hospital

Authorities are investigating a bomb threat that was called in to Boston Children’s Hospital Tuesday. A bomb squad responded to assess the situation as officers set up a perimeter, the Boston Police Department told NBC10 Boston. “I’m afraid to leave,” said Patricia MacArthur-Doval. “I don’t know...

www.nbcboston.com

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"Police have not described the nature of the threat Tuesday night or any details about what prompted their response.

It wasn't clear if there was a connection to a recent increase in threats to the institution, which Boston Children's Hospital recently warned its staff about. The threats were tied to care the facility offers to transgender youth.

Some phone calls and emails have threatened violence against doctors and staff, and the hospital said in a statement posted to social media earlier this month, "We are deeply concerned by these attacks on our clinicians and staff fueled by misinformation and a lack of understanding and respect for our transgender community."

NBC10 Boston reached out to the hospital, which said it was referring all questions to the Boston Police Department. Police did not immediately provide any further details."

Reason this hospital has been targeted