US strikes deal w/ Taliban to remove troops from Afghanistan (1 Viewer)

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    Heathen

    Heathen

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    Surprised I didn't see it posted anywhere. And to preface -- I know there are too many contextual complexities to name regarding this.

    Props to this administration for pushing to get this done. Endless war shouldn't be what American citizens view as 'normal'.

    This would be a huge win for Americans and Afghanis if this works out as planned:
    www.bbc.com

    Afghan conflict: US and Taliban sign deal to end 18-year war

    President Trump says it is "time after all these years to bring our people back home".
    www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

    The US and Nato allies have agreed to withdraw all troops within 14 months if the militants uphold the deal.

    President Trump said it had been a "long and hard journey" in Afghanistan. "It's time after all these years to bring our people back home," he said.

    Talks between the Afghan government and the Taliban are due to follow.

    Under the agreement, the militants also agreed not to allow al-Qaeda or any other extremist group to operate in the areas they control.
    Click to expand...
     
    Lapaz said:
    Most of the last 20 years haven’t been stable. At best they have had a few years. They needed a much longer commitment, but our commitment was small. We were doing so much good with a small commitment, and it served our interests as well. This will come back to haunt us.
    Click to expand...

    Afghanistan doesn't have a national identity. No one has been able to do what your suggesting in this country, and many have tried. This is very different situation from Japan, or Korea.

    We also have no real interest in that area. China, and Pakistan might end being a stabilizing influence in the country. They would both like to have a trade route going through the country, and China is also interested in natural resources.
     
    Lapaz said:
    The status quo was working. The Capitals were all under government control. We weren’t losing soldiers. The Afghans were fighting for their country. I might’ve changed some things like letting them grow their poppy. I would’ve added more corruption checks. We chose the worst path.
    Click to expand...
    No, it wasn't working. The country doesn't get overrun by the Taliban in 2 days after 20 years of U.S. occupation if anything was working.
     
    Last edited:
    ... and I want to add, this whole terrorist training in Afghanistan thing... it's way overblown. Learning how to fire an AK-47 while squatting as if you are taking a dump is not "terrorist training". Anything a terrorist needs to learn, he can learn online, or be taught by someone anywhere in the world, Places like Afghanistan may be great places to hide, but not very practical for "terrorist training".
     
    SystemShock said:
    No, it wasn't working. The country doesn't get overrun by the Taliban in 2 days after 20 years of U.S. occupation if anything was working.
    Click to expand...
    It was working. The Afghans were fighting for their country, but they fell apart when they knew the U.S. wasn't going to back them anymore. They don't even have the logistics to maintain the weapons we gave them.

    I keep hearing, and Biden repeated that they wouldn't fight for their own country, but that is a lie. They were fighting, but they needed our support to win. They weren't a great fighting force. The Taliban is a greater fighting force, but they were being kept in check with our support, and the Afghan's were getting better slowly.
     
    SystemShock said:
    ... and I want to add, this whole terrorist training in Afghanistan thing... it's way overblown. Learning how to fire an AK-47 while squatting as if you are taking a dump is not "terrorist training". Anything a terrorist needs to learn, he can learn online, or be taught by someone anywhere in the world, Places like Afghanistan may be great places to hide, but not very practical for "terrorist training".
    Click to expand...
    Yeah, I tend to agree. I do wonder how much indoctrination occurs online or in their sleeper cells. There has to be some level of communication and coordination as well as sharing resources. But, with the tech available, training can be done pretty much anywhere.
     
    SaulGoodmanEsq said:
    It already haunted us from day one. There are other ways to prevent terrorism than spending trillions of dollars trying to convince Islamic fundamentalists to adopt Western sensibilities. You can't social engineer these people not to think women are basically property. Particularly when the U.S. itself is devolving thanks to Evangelical fundamentalists.
    Click to expand...
    I agree that there were better ways, but the trillion was a sunk cost. With the money and lives that we spent there, it was worth spending the small amount needed to maintain our small presence. Also, I think in time, as women became more involved in every element of that society, they probably would've become more progressive.
     
    J-DONK said:
    Afghanistan doesn't have a national identity. No one has been able to do what your suggesting in this country, and many have tried. This is very different situation from Japan, or Korea.

    We also have no real interest in that area. China, and Pakistan might end being a stabilizing influence in the country. They would both like to have a trade route going through the country, and China is also interested in natural resources.
    Click to expand...
    We could've helped China and Pakistan to establish that trade route. That isn't mutually exclusive to us remaining there for stability. We should've encouraged that. Instead we chose the wrong approach.
     
    I didn't listen to Biden's speech today, so I just read the transcript and these particular quotes stood out to me:

    American troops cannot and should not be fighting in a war and dying in a war that Afghan forces are not willing to fight for themselves. We spent over a trillion dollars. We trained and equipped an Afghan military force of some 300,000 strong. Incredibly well equipped. A force larger in size than the militaries of many of our NATO allies. We gave them every tool they could need. We paid their salaries, provided for the maintenance of their air force, something the Taliban doesn’t have. Taliban does not have an air force. We provided close air support. We gave them every chance to determine their own future. What we could not provide them was the will to fight for that future....
    Click to expand...
    How many more generations of America’s daughters and sons would you have me send to fight Afghanistan’s civil war when Afghan troops will not? How many more lives, American lives, is it worth, how many endless rows of headstones at Arlington National Cemetery? I’m clear on my answer: I will not repeat the mistakes we’ve made in the past. The mistake of staying and fighting indefinitely in a conflict that is not in the national interest of the United States, of doubling down on a civil war in a foreign country, of attempting to remake a country through the endless military deployments of U.S. forces. Those are the mistakes we cannot continue to repeat because we have significant vital interest in the world that we cannot afford to ignore.
    Click to expand...
    There were sons and daughters of OEF vets fighting in Afghanistan, if we were to continue with the "status quo", their grandkids would have been fighting there as well.

    That being said, the only thing I wished they did different is that they would have included evacuation of the Afghan nationals that aided our forces in the initial drawdown plans. The agreement to leave Afghanistan was YEARS in the making and the results of that agreement did not account for relocation for those that helped us and their families.

    Biden's only failure, IMO, was failing to recognize the initial drawdown plan did not include the Afghan nationals that helped us and that was evident as Congress were scrambling to approve visas for them. They had three years to do this and nothing was done until the media began bringing this matter to American citizen's attention.
     
    What is unfolding now in Afghanistan is a terrible, avoidable tragedy. Make no mistake, the circumstances of the US withdrawal and their failure to facilitate the safe passage out of the country for hundreds of thousands of people who are affected will lead to a humanitarian crisis on an enormous scale.

    The reinstitution of Sharia Law is all but assured. Which means that women will once again be denied access to education, denied access to employment, prevented from leaving the house without a male guardian and forced into arranged marriages as child brides. Half the population of the country is poised to be deprived of their citizenship. A generation of progress lost. Already there are stories emerging of female employees of various organisations being instructed by the Taliban to go home and send male relatives in their place.

    The narrative that "it is not up to us to look after people who won't fight for themselves" is a cop out. The US went in to Afghanistan of it's own volition, supported blindly by other countries like my own, and gave an undertaking to those people that it would support and protect them and now it has cast them aside and left them behind to fend for themselves in circumstances where we know they cannot possibly stand on their own two feet. The numbers of the dead, internally displaced and destitute will inexorably climb. And all of this was entirely foreseeable. It is a disgrace.

    But hey, the occupation of Afghanistan is unpopular with voters domestically, and Joe will get a little boost in the opinion polls (or so he thought), so here we are. I guess that's all that matters; humanity be damned.

    The right decisions are not always the popular ones.

    That doesn't mean indefinite occupation. But it does mean you ensure those people that you gave a commitment to, the people that have fought alongside you, provided support to you (translators, mechanics, local intelligence officers), are not left behind to die.

    I am also staggered at the attempts in this thread to diminish the significance of Taliban rule in Afghanistan for the period 1996 to 2001. As if it was just another part of the broader undifferentiated Middle East. The fixation on whether or not the 9/11 hijackers carried out their training there is misconceived. The fact that there were Bin Laden sympathisers in Pakistan that accommodated him after 9/11 is misconceived.

    The point is that for a five-year period the Taliban provided funding, logistical support and munitions to Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. This was the government of the country. They provided Bin Laden and Al Qaeda a base for his entire operation.

    You cannot possibly dismiss Afghanistan as an irrelevant national/global security risk given the recent history of that region. A reinvigorated Taliban is a very bad thing.
     
    Lapaz said:
    It was working.
    Click to expand...
    You and I have very different definitions of "working".
    Lapaz said:
    They don't even have the logistics to maintain the weapons we gave them.
    Click to expand...
    I rest my case.
    Lapaz said:
    I keep hearing, and Biden repeated that they wouldn't fight for their own country, but that is a lie.
    Click to expand...
    No, it's not.
    Lapaz said:
    They were fighting, but they needed our support to win. They weren't a great fighting force. The Taliban is a greater fighting force, but they were being kept in check with our support, and the Afghan's were getting better slowly.
    Click to expand...
    How long does it take to train a "decent fighting force"?
     
    Poison said:
    The point is that for a five-year period the Taliban provided funding, logistical support and munitions to Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. This was the government of the country. They provided Bin Laden and Al Qaeda a base for his entire operation.
    Click to expand...
    Yeah, no. They may have provided a cave to hide, but...
    Poison said:
    You cannot possibly dismiss Afghanistan as an irrelevant national/global security risk given the recent history of that region. A reinvigorated Taliban is a very bad thing.
    Click to expand...
    Given the events of the last few days, it seems the Taliban was alive and well all of this time.
    Real terrorists aren't Cobra. They don't need to control an entire country or billions of dollars to do what they do. Blowing up a car bomb near a building or gunning down civilians doesn't take much practice or cash.
     
    Poison said:
    What is unfolding now in Afghanistan is a terrible, avoidable tragedy. Make no mistake, the circumstances of the US withdrawal and their failure to facilitate the safe passage out of the country for hundreds of thousands of people who are affected will lead to a humanitarian crisis on an enormous scale.

    The reinstitution of Sharia Law is all but assured. Which means that women will once again be denied access to education, denied access to employment, prevented from leaving the house without a male guardian and forced into arranged marriages as child brides. Half the population of the country is poised to be deprived of their citizenship. A generation of progress lost. Already there are stories emerging of female employees of various organisations being instructed by the Taliban to go home and send male relatives in their place.

    The narrative that "it is not up to us to look after people who won't fight for themselves" is a cop out. The US went in to Afghanistan of it's own volition, supported blindly by other countries like my own, and gave an undertaking to those people that it would support and protect them and now it has cast them aside and left them behind to fend for themselves in circumstances where we know they cannot possibly stand on their own two feet. The numbers of the dead, internally displaced and destitute will inexorably climb. And all of this was entirely foreseeable. It is a disgrace.

    But hey, the occupation of Afghanistan is unpopular with voters domestically, and Joe will get a little boost in the opinion polls (or so he thought), so here we are. I guess that's all that matters; humanity be damned.

    The right decisions are not always the popular ones.

    That doesn't mean indefinite occupation. But it does mean you ensure those people that you gave a commitment to, the people that have fought alongside you, provided support to you (translators, mechanics, local intelligence officers), are not left behind to die.

    I am also staggered at the attempts in this thread to diminish the significance of Taliban rule in Afghanistan for the period 1996 to 2001. As if it was just another part of the broader undifferentiated Middle East. The fixation on whether or not the 9/11 hijackers carried out their training there is misconceived. The fact that there were Bin Laden sympathisers in Pakistan that accommodated him after 9/11 is misconceived.

    The point is that for a five-year period the Taliban provided funding, logistical support and munitions to Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. This was the government of the country. They provided Bin Laden and Al Qaeda a base for his entire operation.

    You cannot possibly dismiss Afghanistan as an irrelevant national/global security risk given the recent history of that region. A reinvigorated Taliban is a very bad thing.
    Click to expand...

    Yeah, I agree with a lot of this. I would have fully stayed until everyone was evacuated. That clearly didn't happen in this case and unfortunately many lives are going to be lost because of this. It was predictable.

    Biden did try to blame everyone else for his predicament, and then says they were surprised at how quickly the Taliban took over and he said the buck stops with him. So his messaging was muddled at best.

    They need to stay and protect the airport and get everyone out. The main worry I have is there are Taliban not far from there running around with RPGs. All it takes is one shot to take down a plane full of people. Hopefully the troops can prevent that from happening.

    We made the mess and we need to clean up as much of it as we can. I don't know if it will happen.

    As for the Taliban. I'm not sure we were ever going to get them out of the country. Many others have tried and failed. This is in a lot of ways, history repeating itself.
     
    SystemShock said:
    Yeah, no. They may have provided a cave to hide, but...

    Given the events of the last few days, it seems the Taliban was alive and well all of this time.
    Real terrorists aren't Cobra. They don't need to control an entire country or billions of dollars to do what they do. Blowing up a car bomb near a building or gunning down civilians doesn't take much practice or cash.
    Click to expand...

    Are you saying the Taliban aren't terrorists when they're terrorizing their own people and beheading people in the streets for providing support to the US?

    I agree the Taliban have always been alive and well in spite of our 20 presence there. Ultimately, the Afghanistan people need to wrest control from the Taliban if they want a different future. We, nor anyone else can do it for them.
     
    If you can still believe in polls at all, there's been an immediate and across-the-political-spectrum drop in support for withdrawing with what's been seen.
    Support for the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan is falling amid widespread coverage of the Taliban's takeover of the country, according to a new poll.

    The survey, conducted by Morning Consult and Politico between Aug. 13 and Aug 16, the day after the Taliban completed its takeover of Kabul, found that 49 percent of American voters support President Biden’s decision to pull troops from the region.

    That is significantly down from the 69 percent who expressed support for the exit in an April survey by the same firms.
    ...
    Sixty-nine percent of Democrats approved the president’s decision to pull troops from Afghanistan in the new poll, down from 84 percent in April.

    Republican support dropped to 31 percent from 52 percent, while support from independents fell from 66 percent to 41 percent.
    Click to expand...
    thehill.com

    Support for US withdrawal from Afghanistan tumbles in new poll

    Support for the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan is falling amid widespread coverage of the Taliban’s takeover of the country, according to a new poll.The survey, conducted by Morning Consult…
    thehill.com thehill.com
     
    SystemShock said:
    Yeah, no. They may have provided a cave to hide, but….
    Click to expand...

    Respectfully, this is utterly incorrect.

    @Lapaz misspoke when he referred to the location where the 9/11 hijackers were trained but the essence of his point, that Afghanistan under Taliban rule was a training ground for militant Islamists, is absolutely correct.

    This was not about merely turning a blind eye to Bin Laden’s presence in the country. This was about the provision of active support to him and the Al Qaeda organization.

    From pages 66-7 of the 9/11 Commission Report:

    7537EFD3-C73A-482C-AE85-24939A5A0D91.jpeg
    F40124F0-D7EB-432D-8A02-6D863562D782.jpeg
     
    bdb13 said:
    If you can still believe in polls at all, there's been an immediate and across-the-political-spectrum drop in support for withdrawing with what's been seen.

    thehill.com

    Support for US withdrawal from Afghanistan tumbles in new poll

    Support for the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan is falling amid widespread coverage of the Taliban’s takeover of the country, according to a new poll.The survey, conducted by Morning Consult…
    thehill.com thehill.com
    Click to expand...

    That's not surprising. Democrats are supporting their president, Independents are fickle and Republicans are obviously going to blame Biden for all of it and claim their man would have done it better.

    Assuming that they get the Afgan nationals at the airport out without major loses of life, which it appears they'll be able to do now, I think in time this will fade. Thankfully it doesn't appear that the Taliban is going on a major revenge killing sprees right now. Hopefully they won't.
     
    bdb13 said:
    If you can still believe in polls at all, there's been an immediate and across-the-political-spectrum drop in support for withdrawing with what's been seen.

    thehill.com

    Support for US withdrawal from Afghanistan tumbles in new poll

    Support for the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan is falling amid widespread coverage of the Taliban’s takeover of the country, according to a new poll.The survey, conducted by Morning Consult…
    thehill.com thehill.com
    Click to expand...

    yea, it's easy for people to be against a bad outcome, those people have no idea what they want though.

    No one wants this, but no one has any suggestions as to what an alternative is. Most people would oppose anything we do with regard to Afganistan, because there isn't any option that results in a good outcome.
     

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