All Things LGBTQ+ (6 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[Snarky Sack]

In other words, according to Farb II, feeling very strongly that you are of a different sex than what you were born as is a mental health problem like depression.

According to the DSM-V, you mean. And I said that depression is often co-morbid with Gender Dysphoria. As does the DSM-V.

Gender dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort or distress that might occur in people whose gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth or sex-related physical characteristics.

Transgender and gender-diverse people might experience gender dysphoria at some point in their lives. However, some transgender and gender-diverse people feel at ease with their bodies, with or without medical intervention.

A diagnosis for gender dysphoria is included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association. The diagnosis was created to help people with gender dysphoria get access to necessary health care and effective treatment. The term focuses on discomfort as the problem, rather than identity.

Gender dysphoria - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

That means that many people who are trans are also depressed. Not just sad, but clinically depressed.

What happened to Farb I?

Y'all run him off?

Not to worry, I won't be here much longer, any way. Less than two weeks, I'd say.

 

[Snarky Sack]

There have been 16 studies and they all show the same thing… Youth going through medical gender affirming care have better outcomes than transgender children who do not.

And there have been no studies that show the opposite.

I can link the actual studies for anyone who wants to read them, but a summary is below.

The Evidence for Trans Youth Gender-Affirming Medical Care

Misinformation about the mental health impact of gender-affirming medical care for transgender adolescents has reached a fever pitch. Here's the actual data.

www.psychologytoday.com

Link the actual studies, please. I want to read them.

Thanks for offering.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I had to cut out a lot of that stuff that was just about yourself.

No surprise that you chose "to cut out a lot of that stuff" that was about me being able to naturally and easily remember every time you contradict yourself and every time you say inconsistent things.

No, I'm fine, thanks.

Sincerely glad to hear you haven't been a victim of violence.

Nor does it mean that all supporters of the LGBT-Q+ agenda are responsible for that violence.

It means that those particular individuals are violent butt crevises.

I wish you spoke more consistently like this. Flip, you mostly flip back to mostly not-so-glittering generalities about all the people who are standing up for the rights of people who are transgender, as if all of them are "violent, radical transgenderists."

Unfortunately, by moving this to another thread, I am unable to see what you had quoted me on, while I'm replying. So, I don't know what that means, at all.

The truth is that you saw and knew what question of yours I was answering when you read my post. You couldn't have not seen it when you read my post. You just didn't bother to look back at your question in my post in this thread that quoted and responded to. Here is your question in my post in this thread that you read, quoted and replied to:

Accusing me of putting words in your mouth

I didn't accuse you of putting words in my mouth and you know that. This is the full discussion: You chose to edit out the rest of my post so you could make this strawman argument, so you could have a gotcha moment. Here's the full context of what of the discussion:

<end quote>

I clearly stated you were questioning my sincerity and motivation. I clearly did not accuse you of putting words in mouth.

Why do you constantly and intentionally twist and misrepresent what people have actually said? It's very self-evident that you intentionally misquoted what I said to take it out of context.

...stop accusing people who disagree with you of bigotry, implying that they are closet flags, and blaming them for violence they had no part...

I've done none of that. You know it, and much more importantly, everyone else knows it. I literally couldn't care any less what you think about anything.

I have now reached out an olive branch to you a few times and you have taken a flame thrower to it every time.

Though, I don't care what you think, I'm still going to call you out on BS anytime I want to.

Unfortunately, you keep littering this board with your BS and you seem to get off on it. You're not a genuine person, at least not here, and how you are here is all I know of you.

 

[LA - L.A.]

There is no parental right to subject a child with gender confusion of the sort that nearly every child experiences to chemical castration and permanent surgical alteration of their body. The state has a legitimate interest in putting a stop to that just as they do putting a stop to parents beating, sexually abusing, and even tattooing their child.

This is the honest truth about how Snarky Sack sees the loving parents who care deeply about their children and doing what they think is truly in the best interest of their children, based on what their child has expressed to them and the advice of medical and psychological professionals.

Alright folks, let's just move it along, there's no dehumanizing or demonizing to see here. Just ignore comparing those loving, caring parents, who are sincerely doing what they think is best for the children they love, to parents who "physically beat" and "sexually abuse" their children.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

........A diagnosis for gender dysphoria is included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association. The diagnosis was created to help people with gender dysphoria get access to necessary health care and effective treatment. The term focuses on discomfort as the problem, rather than identity.

Gender dysphoria - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

Point taken and I'm all for easing the pain of anyone suffering mental discomfort. But, my question is are doctors really reaching for the scalpel in cases of gender dysphoria instead of assisting them with mental health?

 

[Snarky Sack]

This is the honest truth about how Snarky Sack sees the loving parents who care deeply about their children and doing what they think is truly in the best interest of their children, based on what their child has expressed to them and the advice of medical and psychological professionals.

Alright folks, let's just move it along, there's no dehumanizing or demonizing to see here. Just ignore comparing those loving, caring parents, who are sincerely doing what they think is best for the children they love, to parents who "physically beat" and "sexually abuse" their children.

Yes, I think parents who want to mutilate children because they are temporarily confused about a concept like gender that they could not possible understand are abusive.

I don't see them as evil, but only mentally ill on some level, to want to do that.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Sure. No boob jobs for early teen girls, or plastic surgery that pageant moms want for their kids, if that's what you mean.

And no gender assignment surgeries for children born intersex either, since you don't think parents have the right to surgically change their children.

It happens and it happens a lot more often than people realize. Some transgender kids experience gender dysphoria, because they were surgically altered and raised to be a gender that does not fit how they feel about themselves.

I'm only saying that the supposed research showing improved mental health outcomes for children given early treatment is a chimera...

That's a factually inaccuracy and it seems to be made knowingly and intentionally.

Such studies (the one's I've been shown) had two things in common: they were based on very unscientific self-reported data collection, and they were sponsored by pharma companies.

That's a factually inaccuracy and it seems to be made knowingly and intentionally.

None of them attempted to isolate the variable, and none of them used any kind of statistical sampling.

That's a factually inaccuracy and it seems to be made knowingly and intentionally.

That may be why the "psycho trans professor,"...

This is the true rigid and judgmental nature of this poster.

 

[LA - L.A.]

In other words, according to Farb II, feeling very strongly that you are of a different sex than what you were born as is a mental health problem like depression.

According to the DSM-V, you mean.

The DSM-V does not list it, because it's considered a mental health problem. The reason it's listed in the DSM-V is right here in what you quoted in your own post:

A diagnosis for gender dysphoria is included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association. The diagnosis was created to help people with gender dysphoria get access to necessary health care and effective treatment. The term focuses on discomfort as the problem, rather than identity.

What that means is that it's listed as a diagnosis so that it's covered by insurance so that parents can afford to get their children the medical and psychological care that they need. The very same care that you want to deny them from having.

Not to worry, I won't be here much longer, any way. Less than two weeks, I'd say.

Dude, please, no you won't. You might start posting under a new account.

You, me and everyone else knows you can't quit this board. This board is, at the very least, one of your reasons for existing.

 

[Snarky Sack]

The DSM-V does not list it, because it's considered a mental health problem. The reason it's listed in the DSM-V is right here in what you quoted in your own post:

That comma is out of place if you are trying to make point that I think you are trying to make.

What that means is that it's listed as a diagnosis so that it's covered by insurance so that parents can afford to get their children the medical and psychological care that they need. The very same care that you want to deny them from having.

In other words, it is all about the money.

Dude, please, no you won't. You might start posting under a new account.

You, me and everyone else knows you can't quit this board. This board is, at the very least, one of your reasons for existing.

Pure projection.

If I were a person who existed to post on a message board, there are plenty of more welcoming message boards for that.

 

[LA - L.A.]

That comma is out of place if you are trying to make point that I think you are trying to make.

My grammatical mistake did not change the fact that the DSM-V does not consider gender dysphoria a mental health problem.

The reason it's listed in the DSM-V is (as quoted from Snarky Sack's post and source):

Snarky Sack said:​

A diagnosis for gender dysphoria is included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association. The diagnosis was created to help people with gender dysphoria get access to necessary health care and effective treatment. The term focuses on discomfort as the problem, rather than identity.​

​

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LA - L.A. said:
What that means is that it's listed as a diagnosis so that it's covered by insurance so that parents can afford to get their children the medical and psychological care that they need. The very same care that you want to deny them from having.

To which Snarky Sack replied:

In other words, it is all about the money.

It's all about parents having insurance coverage so they can afford to do what's best for their child.

The child that they actually know and love. The child that none of us have met, but that some of us are arrogant and ignorant enough to think they know better than the loving parent what's best for their own child.

That's the thing about authoritarians, they don't actually care about what's best for other people when it's inconvenient to them. The only thing they truly care about is getting what they want, when they want it, and exactly how they want it. Anything less than that is criminal and intolerable to them.

When someone refuses to agree with what they want or give them what they want, they call those people thugs, extremists, violent, radical activists, child rapists, child beaters, mentally ill and psycho. That's not the language of compromise. That's the language of domination.

Donald Trump epitomizes this, so it's no surprise that those who have devoted themselves to Trump only know how to think and act the same way. They are mimicking their dear leader. It's all they've got.

 

[Snarky Sack]

\

My grammatical mistake did not change the fact that the DSM-V does not consider gender dysphoria a mental health problem.

The reason it's listed in the DSM-V is (as quoted from Snarky Sack's post and source):

Snarky Sack said:​

A diagnosis for gender dysphoria is included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association. The diagnosis was created to help people with gender dysphoria get access to necessary health care and effective treatment. The term focuses on discomfort as the problem, rather than identity.​

​

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LA - L.A. said:
What that means is that it's listed as a diagnosis so that it's covered by insurance so that parents can afford to get their children the medical and psychological care that they need. The very same care that you want to deny them from having.

"Mental health problem," is a vague term, so it is pointless to argue over what is and is not a "mental health problem."

The DSM-V is primarily a list of mental disorders and mental conditions. It lists Gender Dysphoria.

What you need to understand is that every instance of confusion about one's gender or desire to pretend to be the other gender is NOT Gender Dysphoria. The DSM-V tries to make that very clear, but people still misunderstand.

That's why subjecting a boy who likes to play with dolls to chemicals and scapals is abusive.

Are you seriously saying that the people who wrote the DSM-V were driven by financial considerations rather than professional understanding of psychology? If so, you are right. People who purport to be driven by pure science often have other motivations. Something we all should keep in mind.

Are you aware that the DSM-IV listed "Gender Identity Disorder?" Making the change to "Gender Dysphoria" could have done gender specialists out of a great many lucrative fees, so they are careful to say that it is still a diagnosis.

 

[Snarky Sack]

And no gender assignment surgeries for children born intersex either, since you don't think parents have the right to surgically change their children.

We're not talking about intersex. That's the red herring that transactivists use to avoid talking about what they really want. Not falling for it. Start another thread to talk about treatment of intersex children if you like.

It happens and it happens a lot more often than people realize. Some transgender kids experience gender dysphoria, because they were surgically altered and raised to be a gender that does not fit how they feel about themselves.

Provide examples if it happens so often.

That's a factually inaccuracy and it seems to be made knowingly and intentionally.



That's a factually inaccuracy and it seems to be made knowingly and intentionally.



That's a factually inaccuracy and it seems to be made knowingly and intentionally.

Stop lying.

This is the true rigid and judgmental nature of this poster.

I'm so glad you favor discussions and not competitive "debates."

 

[Snarky Sack]

No surprise that you chose "to cut out a lot of that stuff" that was about me being able to naturally and easily remember every time you contradict yourself and every time you say inconsistent things.

You are starting to sound obsessional.

Sincerely glad to hear you haven't been a victim of violence.

But you don't care about Parker Posey or Riley Gaines?

I wish you spoke more consistently like this. Flip, you mostly flip back to mostly not-so-glittering generalities about all the people who are standing up for the rights of people who are transgender, as if all of them are "violent, radical transgenderists."


The truth is that you saw and knew what question of yours I was answering when you read my post. You couldn't have not seen it when you read my post. You just didn't bother to look back at your question in my post in this thread that quoted and responded to. Here is your question in my post in this thread that you read, quoted and replied to:

I didn't accuse you of putting words in my mouth and you know that. This is the full discussion: You chose to edit out the rest of my post so you could make this strawman argument, so you could have a gotcha moment. Here's the full context of what of the discussion:

<end quote>

I clearly stated you were questioning my sincerity and motivation. I clearly did not accuse you of putting words in mouth.

Why do you constantly and intentionally twist and misrepresent what people have actually said? It's very self-evident that you intentionally misquoted what I said to take it out of context.



I've done none of that. You know it, and much more importantly, everyone else knows it. I literally couldn't care any less what you think about anything.

I have now reached out an olive branch to you a few times and you have taken a flame thrower to it every time.

Though, I don't care what you think, I'm still going to call you out on BS anytime I want to.

Unfortunately, you keep littering this board with your BS and you seem to get off on it. You're not a genuine person, at least not here, and how you are here is all I know of you.

Feel free to call me out on my B.S. I will certainly call you out on yours. For example:

I give you video proof of trans activists being violent, and instead of acknowledging the truth of it, you veer off into a different subject.

In spite of your claim that you are only here for discussions, and not at all to be competitive and debate, this entire post I'm replying to is a rehash of previous conversations in an attempt to play "gotcha."

You are unable to ever admit to the slightest mistake. I showed you that federal criminal trials do indeed allow depositions and instead of saying, "I guess you're right," you phone a friend (who agreed with me).

I guess it would be pointless to bring up your reneging on deals, so I'll let that go if you will.

You imply that people who disagree with the trans activist agenda are secretly interested in trans women as sex partners. Then you deny that you meant me, one of the only posters on here who disagrees with the trans agenda. A homophobic personal attack that you are not willing to own up to.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Link the actual studies, please. I want to read them.

Thanks for offering.

I mean they're pretty easy to look up... but here are the first few:

Puberty suppression in adolescents with gender identity disorder: a prospective follow-up study - PubMed

Puberty suppression may be considered a valuable contribution in the clinical management of gender dysphoria in adolescents.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Young adult psychological outcome after puberty suppression and gender reassignment - PubMed

A clinical protocol of a multidisciplinary team with mental health professionals, physicians, and surgeons, including puberty suppression, followed by cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery, provides gender dysphoric youth who seek gender reassignment from early puberty on, the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Psychological Support, Puberty Suppression, and Psychosocial Functioning in Adolescents with Gender Dysphoria - PubMed

Psychological support and puberty suppression were both associated with an improved global psychosocial functioning in GD adolescents. Both these interventions may be considered effective in the clinical management of psychosocial functioning difficulties in GD adolescents.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

APA PsycNet

psycnet.apa.org

Adolescent development and psychosocial functioning after starting cross-sex hormones for gender dysphoria - PubMed

<span><b>Purpose:</b> To assess how adolescent development progresses and psychiatric symptoms develop among transsexual adolescents after starting cross-sex hormone treatment.<b>Materials and methods:</b> Retrospective chart review among 52 adolescents who came into gender identity assessment...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2341287920300880

Psychological Functioning in Transgender Adolescents Before and After Gender-Affirmative Care Compared With Cisgender General Population Peers - PubMed

Transgender adolescents show poorer psychological well-being before treatment but show similar or better psychological functioning compared with cisgender peers from the general population after the start of specialized transgender care involving puberty suppression.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That should get you started...I'm not sure why you haven't read them already if you are interested enough in the subject to recommend going over the head of doctor recommendations. I can't imagine that anyone would think they should make medical decisions based merely on their own feelings.

Could you share what process you think should be used to allow any particular medical procedure?

Also, I find it curious that you recommend using anti-depressants but not hormone replacement when the studies that show the effectiveness of those medicines are the same, and governed by the same medical bodies. It seems weird that you are ok with outcome in one instance but not the other, when the process was the same.

Which brings me back to my current problem with the state of modern "conservatism" and the GOP. It has been completely overrun with populism, governed by fear and loathing. There is no commitment to process, raw emotion. The Democrats have a similar problem but to a lesser extent in my opinion. They generally recognize things that are problems and understand that the government is the appropriate place to address them, they just have shirt solutions usually.

And all of this doesn't mean that the actual best medical care for youths experience gender dysphoria is medical transition - just that the data we have right now suggests that it is, and that may evolve over time. The correct process for that evolution is through research and the medical community, not public opinion and polls. That's what is happening in some European countries (although they started off much more aggressive than the US in the first place). That's the proper way to govern medical care... it's not a political issue, it's a medical one.

 

[Snarky Sack]

I mean they're pretty easy to look up... but here are the first few:

Puberty suppression in adolescents with gender identity disorder: a prospective follow-up study - PubMed

Puberty suppression may be considered a valuable contribution in the clinical management of gender dysphoria in adolescents.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Young adult psychological outcome after puberty suppression and gender reassignment - PubMed

A clinical protocol of a multidisciplinary team with mental health professionals, physicians, and surgeons, including puberty suppression, followed by cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery, provides gender dysphoric youth who seek gender reassignment from early puberty on, the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Psychological Support, Puberty Suppression, and Psychosocial Functioning in Adolescents with Gender Dysphoria - PubMed

Psychological support and puberty suppression were both associated with an improved global psychosocial functioning in GD adolescents. Both these interventions may be considered effective in the clinical management of psychosocial functioning difficulties in GD adolescents.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

APA PsycNet

psycnet.apa.org

Adolescent development and psychosocial functioning after starting cross-sex hormones for gender dysphoria - PubMed

<span><b>Purpose:</b> To assess how adolescent development progresses and psychiatric symptoms develop among transsexual adolescents after starting cross-sex hormone treatment.<b>Materials and methods:</b> Retrospective chart review among 52 adolescents who came into gender identity assessment...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2341287920300880

Psychological Functioning in Transgender Adolescents Before and After Gender-Affirmative Care Compared With Cisgender General Population Peers - PubMed

Transgender adolescents show poorer psychological well-being before treatment but show similar or better psychological functioning compared with cisgender peers from the general population after the start of specialized transgender care involving puberty suppression.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That should get you started...I'm not sure why you haven't read them already if you are interested enough in the subject to recommend going over the head of doctor recommendations. I can't imagine that anyone would think they should make medical decisions based merely on their own feelings.

Could you share what process you think should be used to allow any particular medical procedure?

Also, I find it curious that you recommend using anti-depressants but not hormone replacement when the studies that show the effectiveness of those medicines are the same, and governed by the same medical bodies. It seems weird that you are ok with outcome in one instance but not the other, when the process was the same.

Which brings me back to my current problem with the state of modern "conservatism" and the GOP. It has been completely overrun with populism, governed by fear and loathing. There is no commitment to process, raw emotion. The Democrats have a similar problem but to a lesser extent in my opinion. They generally recognize things that are problems and understand that the government is the appropriate place to address them, they just have shirt solutions usually.

And all of this doesn't mean that the actual best medical care for youths experience gender dysphoria is medical transition - just that the data we have right now suggests that it is, and that may evolve over time. The correct process for that evolution is through research and the medical community, not public opinion and polls. That's what is happening in some European countries (although they started off much more aggressive than the US in the first place). That's the proper way to govern medical care... it's not a political issue, it's a medical one.

Thank you for posting those. I have read some of them already having been shown them by other posters on other forms.

As I said already, all such studies that I have been shown, including those you just showed me, turn out not to be clinical experimental studies. These type studies rely on self reports. They have no control group ie people who were not given puberty blockers that can be compared to those who were given puberty blockers.

Doesn't mean that studies like that are completely meaningless. It means that they are not really evidence for anything other than the researchers found a group of people to say that they're happy with the treatment they got.

When researchers do a valid experimental clinical study in which the control group is given a placebo by the double blind method and there is true statistical randomization, then the results will be evidence. For all I know, they may well have been such studies but or ignored because the results were not what the researchers wanted.

But again, I am grateful that you provided those studies. For a poster that seemingly appeared out of nowhere, and hit the ground running, you have made some valuable contributions.

 

[LA - L.A.]

You imply that people who disagree with the trans activist agenda are secretly interested in trans women as sex partners. Then you deny that you meant me, one of the only posters on here who disagrees with the trans agenda.

You need to re-watch The Crying Game, because that's not what happens and it's not what the movie is about. My attempt at satire stemmed from what actually happens in the movie and what the movie is really about.

I guess your misremembering of the movie is why your mind raced straight to thinking that I was specifically talking about you and I was implying you secretly seek out trans women for sex. I can't fathom any other reason why your mind would rush straight to that thought.

Just reassure yourself that the world doesn't revolve around you and that not everything said on here is about you.

 

[MT15]

Thank you for posting those. I have read some of them already having been shown them by other posters on other forms.

As I said already, all such studies that I have been shown, including those you just showed me, turn out not to be clinical experimental studies. These type studies rely on self reports. They have no control group ie people who were not given puberty blockers that can be compared to those who were given puberty blockers.

Doesn't mean that studies like that are completely meaningless. It means that they are not really evidence for anything other than the researchers found a group of people to say that they're happy with the treatment they got.

When researchers do a valid experimental clinical study in which the control group is given a placebo by the double blind method and there is true statistical randomization, then the results will be evidence. For all I know, they may well have been such studies but or ignored because the results were not what the researchers wanted.

But again, I am grateful that you provided those studies. For a poster that seemingly appeared out of nowhere, and hit the ground running, you have made some valuable contributions.

So, when the studies compared psychological functioning in trans adolescents both before and after gender affirming care with psychological functioning of their cis peer cohort - that doesn’t have any relevance? Come on….

I bolded a paragraph above that is particularly interesting. It suggests you don’t really understand much about how this type of research is, or even can be, conducted. How exactly would you structure such a study that you describe for this situation? Rhetorical - you cannot.

What you are describing is a typical pharmaceutical clinical study. Completely irrelevant here. I continue to suspect hubris is the driving factor in your posts. Not kind, but it seems to be entirely accurate.

 

[Snarky Sack]

Point taken and I'm all for easing the pain of anyone suffering mental discomfort. But, my question is are doctors really reaching for the scalpel in cases of gender dysphoria instead of assisting them with mental health?

Sadly, yes. In far too many cases, they are doing exactly that. I agree with your implication that mental health concern should be addressed through mental health treatment such as therapy. After several years of that, then there might be enough evidence about the particular case to justify chemical or Surgical treatment.