All Things LGBTQ+ (3 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Does that movie (Crying Game), and/or my appreciation for it give you some insight into my motivations for wanting female private areas to be private?

Female private areas are private now. What's your concern? If it bothers a particular cis woman to be in the same dressing room as someone like the trans star of the Crying Game that cis woman needs to do some social maturing. Ditto with any man in a men's locker room if that trans star was in their locker room.

 

[Snarky Sack]

You're taking something, that wasn't said about you, way too personally and are trying to read way too much into it.

I'm not taking it personally. I understand that it was directed at all who disagree with you on trans issues, not just me.

I want to know if you meant that as a homophobic insult. I would not think that you would, but it sure read that way.

So, I'm asking for clarification. You are not required to clarify, if you don't mind me going with my initial impression.

Just please don't insult both of our intelligence by just saying "no that isn't what I meant," or some such. That is not clarification.

 

[Snarky Sack]

Except that isn't the Democrat position, and never has been. The Democrat position is that medical decisions should be made by the doctors and the parents of the children according to policies laid out by medical review boards based on peer reviewed studies. Not politicians or on personal feelings.

You can't have an honest discussion with someone who isn't willing to honestly present the opposing view point.

Note, there is no Democratic policy at all to interfere with medical decisions of transgender patients. There is no policy put forth to require doctors to allow hormone replacements or surgery against their better judgement, or anything like that.

Yeah, you can't compromise on human rights or on the lives of children. All available research shows that gender affirming care is the best way to lower suicide risks and help transgender children become productive adults. Gender affirming care is a progressive standard of care that starts with therapy, then moving to social transition (using preferred pronouns) and more therapy, and then hormone replacement therapy, more therapy and finally surgery. At any given point, the doctor, parent or child can stop based on how they are all feeling and observing changes in the patient.

Denying access to care is shown to increase suicide attempts (and by extension successful suicides) of transgender children.

You can't compromise with the that because some people think it's icky.

See what I mean, @coldseat? Democrats dont' want to compromise because they truly feel that each and every position they take is an immutable moral imperative.

Republicans talk a good game about not compromising, but they nearly always give in.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

See what I mean, @coldseat? Democrats dont' want to compromise because they truly feel that each and every position they take is an immutable moral imperative.

Republicans talk a good game about not compromising, but they nearly always give in.

You see @coldseat that some Republicans don't engage in honest debate and instead resort to generalities instead of using facts. The party of emotion over reason. Right?

 

[LA - L.A.]

@Snarky Sack , I'm posting my reply here instead of the "What happens to the Republican Party now?" thread, because the topic fits this thread better.

Nice research, though.

I didn't have to do any research. I've always had great memory recall of what was said in conversations and who said it. It comes natural and easy to me. It was really helpful when I debated in high school and on a full scholarship in college, because my handwriting sucks which was a big disadvantage when flowing, taking notes during a debate.

My verbatim recall is about 70% and my contextual recall is nearly 100%. I remember all the contradictory things you say without having to research anything. I only use the search feature to find the post in which you said what I remember you saying, so that I can when you said it.

If you don't like me quoting the contradictory and inconsistent things you say, then just stop saying contradictory and inconsistent things. It's really that simple and you have complete control over.

There's nothing wrong with pointing out when people say contradictory and inconsistent things and I'll do it whenever I choose to do so.

You might find it beneficial to research the issues that you discuss as thoroughly as you do people who outdo you in debates about those issues.

As mentioned above, I didn't have to research the things you've said. I simply remember the things you've said.

I also did not research "you" in any way. You're acting like I doxxed you or something. All I did was quote things you have said on this board. If there's something you don't like me quoting, then don't say it. It's really that simple. Anything that anyone says on this board is quotable on this board.

As to you "outdoing" me in a debate, I don't care if you feel like you're "outdoing" me in a "debate." I don't even care if anyone else feels like you're "outdoing" me in a "debate." I don't even care if anyone feels like they're "outdoing" me in a "debate."

I'm not here to "debate" and I'm not "debating" anyone here. Voicing disagreement is not the same thing as "debating."

That's why your side...

My only "side" is the entire human species, everything on this planet, and everything in the universe. That means in my eyes you are also "my side."

I don't see the world in terms of my tribe/side versus other tribes/sides. I've not devoted myself to any tribe/side. My only devotion is to be true to myself, and caring and respectful of everyone else.

I do agree on some things and disagree on other things with a wide variety of people who see themselves as belonging to different sides/tribes from each other. I never lose sight of the fact that the same people, who see themselves as being part of a side/tribe, will cheer me for saying one thing, but will also inevitably end up booing me for something else that I say.

Because it is not enough even to support pride. You have to support it exactly the way you are told to and with a sufficient level of enthusiasm or be targeted for violence.

Has someone committed violence against you for not supporting pride enough? If so, it's not acceptable that happened to you and whoever did it needs to be held accountable.

You seem pretty sure that it is bigotry that drives views such as mine.

I see the entirety of the backlash against everyone who is LGBTQIA+ as being predominantly fueled by and steered by bigotry.

As I've previously indicated, I'm not saying nor thinking that you are a bigot or that you are motivated by bigotry in regards to your opinions on people who are transgender.

If it is not bigotry that motivates my push, what would it be?

Only you can answer that question and you don't need to answer it for me.


I say this:

The backlash against all LGBQTIA+ people is being incited and steered by bigots who do in fact see them as inferior and subhuman.​

• They have been murdered for who they are.
• They have been raped for who they are.
• They have been brutalized for who they are.
• They have been harassed for who they are.
• They have been traumatized for who they are.
• They have been disrespected and shamed for who they are.
• They have been dehumanized for who they are.
• They have been demonized for who they are.
• They have been called sins, morally corrupt and abominations to god by political and religious leaders for who they are

So whether you are bigoted or not, I'm going to keep pushing back on anything that you or anyone else says that adds to or gives cover to the unjust, cruel and very non-Christian way that they are treated.​

And you respond with this:

Please don't dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back, guy.

I had already explained to you that I was not talking about you individually and that I was talking about the whole backlash.

I was being sincere and here you are questioning my sincerity. It's well documented by you how much you don't like people "putting words in your mouth," or doubting your motivations, or doubting your intentions, or doubting your honesty, or doubting your sincerity.

And yet here you are doubting both my sincerity and my motivation. yet again.

You realize that there have been transsexuals, as they used to be called, since time immemorial?

Yes, I do and people who are transsexuals and all people who are LGBTQIA+ have since time immemorial been:

• murdered
• raped
• brutalized
• harassed
• traumatized
• disrespected
• dehumanized for who they are.
• demonized
• called sins, morally corrupt and abominations to god by political and religious leaders

And they've suffered all of those abuses just for being who they are and suffered those abuses at the hands of bigots motivated by their bigotry. You do realize that don't you? You agree we need to stop those abuses from happening, don't you? I assume you do agree we need to stop those abuses.

This is a board on which people debate.

First off, this is a board on which some people come here to discuss and some come to debate. That's the stated intention of this board.

https://madaboutpolitics.com/Community_Discussion_Board__Posting_Rules_Guidelines.html

First, allow me to reiterate that the purpose of the new board is to encourage civil and intelligent discussion and debate concerning political topics.

What I explained is that I am here only to discuss and am not interested in debate. I did not say people can't debate here. I only explained the difference between disagreeing with someone and debating someone so that you would hopefully understand where I'm coming from and that you would stop mistaking my disagreeing with you as me trying to "outdo" you in a debate.

I'm not trying to "outdo" you in a debate. I comfortably retired from debating over 30 years ago and I've been a lot better off for it.

I know, because I keep giving my opinion and others keep debating me.

I can only speak for myself, but whenever I disagree with something you or anyone else says, I'm only disagreeing. I'm not trying to "outdo" someone in a debate and there's a significant difference between the two.

Debating is competitive. Discussion is not. I'm not going to be drawn into competing with or trying to "outdo" anyone in any way, which of course includes you, Snarky Sack.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

There is no compromise to be had because there is no rational policy position being pushed by Republicans. It isn't being based on facts or logic, just pure fear and using that to create a voting block. When that is the goal, there isn't a thing you can compromise on because they'll just move to the next thing to create that fear.

Repubicans used to make a big stink about parent's rights, and keeping the government out of personal decisions, but clearly that isn't the case based on things they want now.

They still make the parent's rights argument when it comes to banning books from public schools and libraries, though.

 

[MT15]

They still make the parent's rights argument when it comes to banning books from public schools and libraries, though.

And taking away bodily autonomy.

 

[Snarky Sack]

I had to cut out a lot of that stuff that was just about yourself. Nothing wrong with doing that, I do it myself sometimes.

You see, I'm the kind of person who . . . just kidding!

Has someone committed violence against you for not supporting pride enough? If so, it's not acceptable that happened to you and whoever did it needs to be held accountable.

No, I'm fine, thanks.

Is it just me, though? What about Riley Gaines, and others who have had violence committed against them?









Let me be clear: The fact that many transactivists commit violence against people who disagree with them does not mean that the people they commit violence against them are right. Nor does committing violence mean that all who agree with you politically are wrong - unless they agree with the violence.

Nor does it mean that all supporters of the LGBT-Q+ agenda are responsible for that violence.

It means that those particular individuals are violent butt crevises.

I'm glad that you do not find their behavior acceptable.

It should go without saying that I find the behavior of anti-LGBT-Q+ folk who are violent butt crevises unacceptable.

Violent people are gonna find excuses to be violent. Reading support for your political position into any violence is illogical.

I see the entirety of the backlash against everyone who is LGBTQIA+ as being predominantly fueled by and steered by bigotry.

That's really a meaningless term if you just apply it to anyone who disagrees with the transgender agenda.

As I've previously indicated, I'm not saying nor thinking that you are a bigot or that you are motivated by bigotry in regards to your opinions on people who are transgender.



Only you can answer that question and you don't need to answer it for me.

Unfortunately, by moving this to another thread, I am unable to see what you had quoted me on, while I'm replying. So, I don't know what that means, at all.

I had already explained to you that I was not talking about you individually and that I was talking about the whole backlash.

I agreed to that.

I was being sincere and here you are questioning my sincerity. It's well documented by you how much you don't like people "putting words in your mouth," or doubting your motivations, or doubting your intentions, or doubting your honesty, or doubting your sincerity.

Accusing me of putting words in your mouth when I asked for clarification several times is illogical. The one poster about whom I had several complaints about putting words in my mouth would say things like "So, you're saying . . . " and then say something completely different from what I said. I showed him an example of him saying that I said something I did not say three times in the same exchange.

So, you are never going to tell me what you meant by "a Crying Game vibe?" Well, you certainly do not have to. But I must decipher the cryptic meaning myself having asked you for help.

Therefore I will indeed accept the most obvious meaning.

And my response it that it is homophobic as well as childish to play the "they're closet flags!" card because people disagree with you about trans issues. I'd respect you more if you had just said, "that's what I meant, but I shouldn't have said it," since you are obviously embarassed about it, and rightfully so.

Yes, I do and people who are transsexuals and all people who are LGBTQIA+ have since time immemorial been:

• murdered
• raped
• brutalized
• harassed
• traumatized
• disrespected
• dehumanized for who they are.
• demonized
• called sins, morally corrupt and abominations to god by political and religious leaders

And they've suffered all of those abuses just for being who they are and suffered those abuses at the hands of bigots motivated by their bigotry. You do realize that don't you? You agree we need to stop those abuses from happening, don't you? I assume you do agree we need to stop those abuses.

Sure. We need to stop all politically motivated violence. All violence, in fact.

May I suggest that you stop accusing people who disagree with you of bigotry, implying that they are closet flags, and blaming them for violence they had no part in as a way to help stop the violence that I posted above?

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Seriously, who thinks you can compromise on medical decisions? You want to get your kidney removed laproscopically? Naawww... I'm not comfortable with that, let's set up rules on your medical based on what I'm comfortable with that, but we can compromise and you get your kidney removed with open surgery instead... how does that make any sense?

Either a treatment is recommended or it isn't... and you don't make that decision based on popular vote. It's determined by studies, medical review and ultimately the doctor and patient.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Repubicans used to make a big stink about parent's rights, and keeping the government out of personal decisions, but clearly that isn't the case based on things they want now.

They still do make a big stink about parent's rights, but only when they agree with what the parents are doing. They are all about using government power to force people to do what they want and imprison or execute those who resist them, which is the very definition of fascism.

Definition of FASCISM

a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, and that is characterized by severe… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[Snarky Sack]

They still do make a big stink about parent's rights, but only when they agree with what the parents are doing. They are all about using government power to force people to do what they want and imprison or execute those who resist them, which is the very definition of fascism.

Definition of FASCISM

a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, and that is characterized by severe… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Let's remember what we are talking about here.

There is no parental right to subject a child with gender confusion of the sort that nearly every child experiences to chemical castration and permanent surgical alteration of their body. The state has a legitimate interest in putting a stop to that just as they do putting a stop to parents beating, sexually abusing, and even tattooing their child.

We are finally making strides in convincing people in third world nations to stop child genital mutilation, only to have it advocated here in the U.S.

I'll say this: It is Europe who is leading the way in putting a stop to that kind of thing. Just goes to show you that there is an upside to everything. Due to socialized medicine gender specialists in Europe do not have the profit motive that they do here in the states, with government regulated health care paying for anything the doctor orders.

 

[LA - L.A.]

The obvious compromise would be an minimum age lower than 18, such as 14 for hormones, 16 for top surgery and facial/voice surgery, and 18 for bottom surgery.

I would be okay with those guidelines if they were consistently and equally applied to all children and not just transgender children.

Unless of course, their is peer reviewed medical evidence that any of those restrictions would be detrimental to any children.

For instance, I would want each parent to have the right to determine if and at a what age they would start their child on puberty blockers after consulting with and being evaluated by medical and psychological health care professionals. To me, the medical and psychological evidence clearly supports that is what is in the best interest of the child.

I'm only saying what I think. I am not saying anyone else is wrong. I am not trying to prove anyone else wrong. I'm just saying what I think.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Let's remember what we are talking about here.

There is no parental right to subject a child with gender confusion of the sort that nearly every child experiences to chemical castration and permanent surgical alteration of their body.

Let's not pretend that those who subject themselves to permanent surgical alterations of their bodies are just subject to the same gender confusion that nearly everyone experiences. That's absurd.

The clinicians in the Center for Gender Surgery at Boston Children's Hospital offer breast augmentation surgery as a gender affirmation procedure to eligible patients who have documented and persistent gender dysphoria and who are over age 15.

https://www.childrenshospital.org/treatments/breast-augmentation#:~:text=The clinicians in the Center,who are over age 15.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I understand that it was directed at all who disagree with you on trans issues...

You misunderstand. I told you it what it was. You're not listening. You not listening to what people are actually telling you makes you piss poor at debating, by the way. There was a guy on my college squad that was a debating legend, in his own mind. He never accomplished squat in debate. You're "debate" style reminds me a lot of him.

 

[Snarky Sack]

I would be okay with those guidelines if they were consistently and equally applied to all children and not just transgender children.

Sure. No boob jobs for early teen girls, or plastic surgery that pageant moms want for their kids, if that's what you mean.

Unless of course, their is peer reviewed medical evidence that any of those restrictions would be detrimental to any children.

There is not. if some comes out and it is valid, reliable and robust, I'll change my mind.

For instance, I would want each parent to have the right to determine if and at a what age they would start their child on puberty blockers after consulting with and being evaluated by medical and psychological health care professionals. To me, the medical and psychological evidence clearly supports that is what is in the best interest of the child.

I'm only saying what I think. I am not saying anyone else is wrong. I am not trying to prove anyone else wrong. I'm just saying what I think.

I got it.

I'm only saying that the supposed research showing improved mental health outcomes for children given early treatment is a chimera, if the studies that I've been shown by online transactivists are the best they've got.

Such studies (the one's I've been shown) had two things in common: they were based on very unscientific self-reported data collection, and they were sponsored by pharma companies. I've not seen a single study that showed a reduction in actual suicides. Instead they show reduction in self-reported suicidal ideation.

None of them attempted to isolate the variable, and none of them used any kind of statistical sampling.

I will say this: cross-sex hormones have been shown in scientific and apolitical clinical testing to reduce depression. That testing had nothing to do with transgender treatment, but sought evidence for efficacy of hormones in treating depression. They found it.

That may be why the "psycho trans professor," in the first video said female hormones were the best anti-depressant that he ever had. They were, but not for the reason he thinks, as far as is known.

Since depression is co-morbid in so many cases of Gender Dysphoria, it would behoove any doctor to try that as a treatment before going for the scapal. I don't believe that puberty blockers have any such record of success.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

What I always wonder is why Republicans are so concerned with this topic. Why would a Trumpster care about at what age a transgender male has breast augmentation?

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Since depression is co-morbid in so many cases of Gender Dysphoria, it would behoove any doctor to try that as a treatment before going for the scapal. I don't believe that puberty blockers have any such record of success.

In other words, according to Farb II, feeling very strongly that you are of a different sex than what you were born as is a mental health problem like depression.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Sure. No boob jobs for early teen girls, or plastic surgery that pageant moms want for their kids, if that's what you mean.

There is not. if some comes out and it is valid, reliable and robust, I'll change my mind.

I got it.

I'm only saying that the supposed research showing improved mental health outcomes for children given early treatment is a chimera, if the studies that I've been shown by online transactivists are the best they've got.

Such studies (the one's I've been shown) had two things in common: they were based on very unscientific self-reported data collection, and they were sponsored by pharma companies. I've not seen a single study that showed a reduction in actual suicides. Instead they show reduction in self-reported suicidal ideation.

None of them attempted to isolate the variable, and none of them used any kind of statistical sampling.

I will say this: cross-sex hormones have been shown in scientific and apolitical clinical testing to reduce depression. That testing had nothing to do with transgender treatment, but sought evidence for efficacy of hormones in treating depression. They found it.

That may be why the "psycho trans professor," in the first video said female hormones were the best anti-depressant that he ever had. They were, but not for the reason he thinks, as far as is known.

Since depression is co-morbid in so many cases of Gender Dysphoria, it would behoove any doctor to try that as a treatment before going for the scapal. I don't believe that puberty blockers have any such record of success.

There have been 16 studies and they all show the same thing… Youth going through medical gender affirming care have better outcomes than transgender children who do not.

And there have been no studies that show the opposite.

I can link the actual studies for anyone who wants to read them, but a summary is below.

The Evidence for Trans Youth Gender-Affirming Medical Care

Misinformation about the mental health impact of gender-affirming medical care for transgender adolescents has reached a fever pitch. Here's the actual data.

www.psychologytoday.com