All Things LGBTQ+ (2 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[MT15]

Well, it does seem this ideology 'forces' things on people that don't agree.

All that is happening is that people have to acknowledge she exists and respect her ability to compete within the rules established by her sports body like anybody else.

Nobody is being forced to “do” anything. If your ideology wants to “cancel” people for existing then I could see how you think her existence is “forcing” something on you.

The New Yorker article that Rob posted is excellent. You and System should both read it. I learned a lot about what is happening and how the different sports bodies are attempting to deal with these issues. For instance, I learned that there is an Ivy League swimmer who hasn’t even had any hormone replacement therapy that is being allowed to swim on their college woman’s team. I’m not sure I agree with that decision.

I learned that there are elaborate rules for participation in Olympic and NCAA sports events for trans athletes. I learned that most people, if left alone by folks who want to politicize everything, will work toward making things as fair and balanced as they can. The rules are being tested and revised, as people try to make things right. I learned that there is only now starting to be research on the effects of hormone therapy on trans athletes’ performances. And that we don’t really know as much about it as a lot of people think we know.

Honestly, if people don’t read at least this article, I don’t see how they can claim to know anything about this subject at all.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

All that is happening is that people have to acknowledge she exists and respect her ability to compete within the rules established by her sports body like anybody else.

Nobody is being forced to “do” anything. If your ideology wants to “cancel” people for existing then I could see how you think her existence is “forcing” something on you.

The New Yorker article that Rob posted is excellent. You and System should both read it. I learned a lot about what is happening and how the different sports bodies are attempting to deal with these issues. For instance, I learned that there is an Ivy League swimmer who hasn’t even had any hormone replacement therapy that is being allowed to swim on their college woman’s team. I’m not sure I agree with that decision.

I learned that there are elaborate rules for participation in Olympic and NCAA sports events for trans athletes. I learned that most people, if left alone by folks who want to politicize everything, will work toward making things as fair and balanced as they can. The rules are being tested and revised, as people try to make things right. I learned that there is only now starting to be research on the effects of hormone therapy on trans athletes’ performances. And that we don’t really know as much about it as a lot of people think we know.

Honestly, if people don’t read at least this article, I don’t see how they can claim to know anything about this subject at all.

I think what you posted that I underlined is the main point. People will work hard to make it as fair for all concerned as they can if given the chance.

 

[Optimus Prime]

I don't even know what to say to this
==========================

STANLY CO., N.C. – A local shelter dog is looking for a soft landing after being dumped by his owners for being “gay.” A Stanly County Animal Shelter Facebook post says the dog’s owners surrendered him to the shelter after he humped another male dog.........

Dog Dumped At Local Shelter Because Owners Say He's Gay - WCCB Charlotte's CW

What the dog did that caused his family to kick him out.

www.wccbcharlotte.com

 

[Optimus Prime]

Interesting article
============
Last month, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) ordered state health agencies to investigate parents for child abuse if they provide gender-affirming medical care for their transgender children. Since then, some Idaho legislators have moved to make providing such treatment for minors punishable by life in prison. Meanwhile, Republican-controlled state legislatures across the country have been trying to limit classroom discussion of gender identity and sexual orientation, and recently passed laws in nine states ban trans women from participating in women’s high school or college sports teams.

Why are Republicans focusing on legislation restricting trans people? While many more people identify as trans now than in the past, their numbers are relatively small, about 1 in every 250 people, concentrated among younger cohorts. The emphasis seems disproportionate, given, for instance, the vanishingly small number of trans women competing in athletics.

My research finds that when cisgender men consider variations in gender identity, they become more likely to identify as Republican. Republicans may be emphasizing laws and rhetoric targeting trans people to reinforce wavering Republicans and even bring in some men who otherwise might not support Republican candidates...........

No wonder Republicans are targeting trans people: They embody the idea that sex is not fixed at birth, nor tied inexorably to biology, that gender and sex can be complicated, rather than dichotomous. Simply considering that possibility can threaten anyone who sees gender as divided neatly into male and female.

This means attacking trans people is good politics for Republican politicians trying to secure their base. If the security of a firm, unchanging, binary view of gender is linked to identifying as a Republican, attacking any other gender identity can build support among their partisans.........

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[MT15]

These current efforts by Rs to re-stigmatize gay and trans people are just as hateful as the efforts of old:

 

[SystemShock]

The New Yorker article that Rob posted is excellent. You and System should both read it.

Does the article explain how a swimmer went from mediocre-at-best in the men's swimming team to women's NCAA Div. 1 champion?

 

[MT15]

Just read the article. I’ll bet you won’t though.

 

[Farb]

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/va-tech-swimmer-ncaa-transgender-participation

"It feels like the final spot was taken from me because of the NCAA’s decision to let someone who is not a biological female compete," she wrote. "I know you could say I had the opportunity to swim faster and make the top 16, but this situation makes it a bit different and I can’t help but be angry or sad. It hurts me, my team and other women in the pool. One spot was taken away from the girl who got 9th in the 500 free and din’t make it back to the A final preventing her from being an All-American. Every event that transgender athletes competed in was one spot taken away from biological females throughout the meet."

From a female swimmer that lost out to a biological male swimmer. Still not sure why this guys feelings are more important that this female athletes?

 

[V Chip]

Does the article explain how a swimmer went from mediocre-at-best in the men's swimming team

You obviously didn’t read the article.

While competing still on the male swimming team, she finished second in two Ivy League championship events. She wasn’t “mediocre” on the men’s swimming team.

I get the point you’re attempting to argue, but when you put blatantly incorrect things in your arguments that sound exactly like they come from the right-wing propaganda machine, it does you absolutely no favors.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/va-tech-swimmer-ncaa-transgender-participation

"It feels like the final spot was taken from me because of the NCAA’s decision to let someone who is not a biological female compete," she wrote. "I know you could say I had the opportunity to swim faster and make the top 16, but this situation makes it a bit different and I can’t help but be angry or sad. It hurts me, my team and other women in the pool. One spot was taken away from the girl who got 9th in the 500 free and din’t make it back to the A final preventing her from being an All-American. Every event that transgender athletes competed in was one spot taken away from biological females throughout the meet."

From a female swimmer that lost out to a biological male swimmer. Still not sure why this guys feelings are more important that this female athletes?

I read her letter in its entirety. Fox News did something she asked not to be done, for one- disseminate the letter partially. What they left out was a chance to put the spotlight on record-breaking performances from the other athletes.

Those athletes, by the way- the ones that outperformed Lia Thomas- are cisgender females. Thomas competed in three events and finished 1, 5, and 8. And in the event she won, she missed the NCAA record by nearly 10 seconds and the 2nd place finisher was less than two seconds behind her. The fact is that she isn't some unstoppable machine ruining the lives of collegiate swimmers everywhere. She isn't blowing everyone out of the water.

 

[Farb]

I read her letter in its entirety. Fox News did something she asked not to be done, for one- disseminate the letter partially. What they left out was a chance to put the spotlight on record-breaking performances from the other athletes.

Those athletes, by the way- the ones that outperformed Lia Thomas- are cisgender females. Thomas competed in three events and finished 1, 5, and 8. And in the event she won, she missed the NCAA record by nearly 10 seconds and the 2nd place finisher was less than two seconds behind her. The fact is that she isn't some unstoppable machine ruining the lives of collegiate swimmers everywhere. She isn't blowing everyone out of the water.

What makes his feelings more important than hers? I also have a hard time wondering why he would take any form of satisfaction in winning those titles? It has to be narcissisms?

Why walk around the locker room with the twig and berries out if you are 'woman'?

I am pretty sure he tanked the last one, like he did in that match that let another trans swimmer win.

Here are a few other article since you have to point out the original is from a very bad and not good news site that also parsed her letter...

https://news.yahoo.com/virginia-tech-swimmer-publicly-blasts-195910087.html

https://thevirginiastar.com/2022/03...ncaa-in-opposition-to-transgender-athletes-2/

 

[MT15]

What makes his feelings more important than hers? I also have a hard time wondering why he would take any form of satisfaction in winning those titles? It has to be narcissisms?

Why walk around the locker room with the twig and berries out if you are 'woman'?

I am pretty sure he tanked the last one, like he did in that match that let another trans swimmer win.

Here are a few other article since you have to point out the original is from a very bad and not good news site that also parsed her letter...

https://news.yahoo.com/virginia-tech-swimmer-publicly-blasts-195910087.html

https://thevirginiastar.com/2022/03...ncaa-in-opposition-to-transgender-athletes-2/

What makes you think it’s about feelings and not about love of the sport in which she has spent her entire life participating? Those are your feelings that you are projecting in this case. Just like your stupidly laughable characterization that she walks around nude in the locker room. And your characterization that she “tanked” two races. Your hatefulness is showing badly, Farb.

As a trans person, she had to meet the requirements for trans competitors. You are the only one making this about feelings. Maybe you should quit this charade. You don’t care about anything except forcing people like her back into the shadows, where they won’t offend you with their very existence.

 

[SystemShock]

You obviously didn’t read the article.

I did.

While competing still on the male swimming team, she finished second in two Ivy League championship events. She wasn’t “mediocre” on the men’s swimming team.

Ivy League championship isn't exactly NCAA Div 1 championship, no?
So, in the context of the NCAA div 1, Thompson was indeed mediocre at best. Was Thomas ranked anywhere the top 10? Top 100? Top 200? I remember reading mid 200's, like 250th... which would mean Thomas was nothing extraordinary (i.e., ordinary, i.e. mediocre) as a swimmer in the context of the NCAA men's div.1 swimming.

I get the point you’re attempting to argue, but when you put blatantly incorrect things in your arguments that sound exactly like they come from the right-wing propaganda machine, it does you absolutely no favors.

What is blatantly incorrect?

 

[MT15]

SS: you said earlier that you think it should be up to the sports’ governing bodies to regulate the participation of trans athletes. If you read the article, you saw where various sports bodies are doing just that. The woman you are objecting to met the requirements for trans athletes to be allowed to compete. So please let us know what is your objection? Can a trans athlete ever actually win, without you and others complaining?

The rankings from when she was competing as a man were from freshman year, if I recall correctly. It’s not unusual for swimmers to get better times during the four years of college. She sat out for two years, going from memory, during her hormone therapy to allow the changes in her body to take place fully. Her times have drastically increased and are nowhere near world record times for women. What do you want to have happened here?

 

[SystemShock]

I read her letter in its entirety. Fox News did something she asked not to be done, for one- disseminate the letter partially. What they left out was a chance to put the spotlight on record-breaking performances from the other athletes.

Those athletes, by the way- the ones that outperformed Lia Thomas- are cisgender females. Thomas competed in three events and finished 1, 5, and 8. And in the event she won, she missed the NCAA record by nearly 10 seconds and the 2nd place finisher was less than two seconds behind her. The fact is that she isn't some unstoppable machine ruining the lives of collegiate swimmers everywhere. She isn't blowing everyone out of the water.

But that is the thing: in NCAA Div1 men's swimming, Thomas would not have even participated in the men's championships; Thomas wouldn't even make the cut to participate in State championships, let alone the Div1 men's swimming championship.

As I said on another post, I remember reading somewhere that Thomas was ranked somewhere in the mid 200's in NCAA men's swimming. Had Thomas transitioned and ended ranking in the mid 200's in NCAA women's swimming, then ok. But the jump from being ranked in the mid 200's to div1 champion should tell you something.

 

[coldseat]

I did.

Ivy League championship isn't exactly NCAA Div 1 championship, no?
So, in the context of the NCAA div 1, Thompson was indeed mediocre at best. Was Thompson ranked anywhere the top 10? Top 100? Top 200? I remember reading mid 200's, like 250th... which would mean Thompson was nothing extraordinary (i.e., ordinary, i.e. mediocre) as a swimmer in the context of the NCAA men's div.1 swimming.


What is blatantly incorrect?

Do you believe Lia Thompson switched genders to win swimming races? Do you believe other trans athletes switch genders to win competitions?

 

[SystemShock]

SS: you said earlier that you think it should be up to the sports’ governing bodies to regulate the participation of trans athletes. If you read the article, you saw where various sports bodies are doing just that. The woman you are objecting to met the requirements for trans athletes to be allowed to compete. So please let us know what is your objection? Can a trans athlete ever actually win, without you and others complaining?

The complaint is that those requirements are not fair to the biological females, which should be very obvious.

The rankings from when she was competing as a man were from freshman year, if I recall correctly. It’s not unusual for swimmers to get better times during the four years of college. She sat out for two years, going from memory, during her hormone therapy to allow the changes in her body to take place fully. Her times have drastically increased and are nowhere near world record times for women. What do you want to have happened here?

Times get better, sure... but a 200+ place jump?

I'll reiterate: if Thomas would have gone from being ranked in the mid 200's in NCAA men's swimming to being ranked in the mid 200's in NCAA women's swimming, then ok. Even if Thomas got into the 100's, I'd still raise an eye brow, but ok. But from mid 200's to NCAA div1 champion? That's quite the jump.

 

[SystemShock]

Do you believe Lia Thompson switched genders to win swimming races? Do you believe other trans athletes switch genders to win competitions?

Why they switch is not relevant to fairness on the playing field.

But hey, screw cisgenders... they should be used to it by now anyway, amarite?