Trump Tracker Too (2 Trump 2 Tracker) (1 Viewer)

[EmBeeFiveOhFour]

The football board had the very useful Daily Trump Tracker thread, which was a good place to briefly discuss the latest ridiculous thing that might have ended 97% of prior Presidential administrations even if it didn't necessarily justify an entire thread devoted to it in 2017-2019 (because of the sheer volume of these things). Since I don't see anything like that here already, I'll add one myself.

 

[efil4]

Aw, you hate to see it.

Owner of a VC firm gets conned?

A fool and his money...

 

[DaveXA]

He lied to the FBI about the Russian contacts with the ambassador. Period. He wasn't coerced to lie. The FBI didn't do anything wrong. They asked him questions to which they knew the answers to see whether he could be trusted. I think they do that routinely. He proved to be a liar, then he almost did the right thing by agreeing to cooperate, even if it was self-serving, but then changed course to continue to obfuscate and protect Trump. Flynn is garbage, and he deserved punishment.

I may be wrong, but I do think he was coerced. I tend to think in this case it was a political hit job. But that's me. I'll just agree to disagree. I don't understand why the judge sat on the case for 7 months when he could have dispensed with it in a week. It made zero sense, and what he did has no precedent.

 

[DaveXA]

Owner of a VC firm gets conned?

A fool and his money...

Ayep, he might as well kiss it goodbye cuz it's gone, gone, gone.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

I may be wrong, but I do think he was coerced. I tend to think in this case it was a political hit job. But that's me. I'll just agree to disagree. I don't understand why the judge sat on the case for 7 months when he could have dispensed with it in a week. It made zero sense, and what he did has no precedent.

I don’t think it was a political hit job. I do think it was a case of knowing someone did something wrong and wrangling them in so they could give evidence against a bigger fish. That’s just a normal investigative tactic. Most cases against large powerful people are put together that way. Not one single major mob figure would have ever been prosecuted without flipping underlings for smaller crimes.

 

[efil4]

He owns Eshelmen Ventures that invests in.... Healthcare industry.

 

[DaveXA]

I don’t think it was a political hit job. I do think it was a case of knowing someone did something wrong and wrangling them in so they could give evidence against a bigger fish. That’s just a normal investigative tactic. Most cases against large powerful people are put together that way. Not one single major mob figure would have ever been prosecuted without flipping underlings for smaller crimes.

That's probably closer to what I meant. The political hit job was in the sense that they went after Flynn because they thought they had bigger fish to fry through him. I'm pretty sure he never gets talked to without his ties to much more influential people. Which was the whole point imo. He got the worst of it rather than those above him.

 

[FullMonte]

I may be wrong, but I do think he was coerced.

Why do you think he was coerced? Have you seen evidence to that? He was asked if he had a specific conversation with Kysliak, and he said no he didn't. He went so far as to say he couldn't have known about the situation because he was in Costa Rica (I think it was), and his Blackberry service was spotty. In other words, it wasn't simply "I don't remember," it was "let me lie and say no, and then come up with a reason I couldn't have known."

I tend to think in this case it was a political hit job. But that's me. I'll just agree to disagree. I don't understand why the judge sat on the case for 7 months when he could have dispensed with it in a week. It made zero sense, and what he did has no precedent.

Was there a precedent for the DOJ attempting to drop a prosecution AFTER the individual had pleaded guilty, and on two occasions confirmed his guilty plea to the court?

 

[DaveXA]

Why do you think he was coerced? Have you seen evidence to that? He was asked if he had a specific conversation with Kysliak, and he said no he didn't. He went so far as to say he couldn't have known about the situation because he was in Costa Rica (I think it was), and his Blackberry service was spotty. In other words, it wasn't simply "I don't remember," it was "let me lie and say no, and then come up with a reason I couldn't have known."



Was there a precedent for the DOJ attempting to drop a prosecution AFTER the individual had pleaded guilty, and on two occasions confirmed his guilty plea to the court?

I don't think there was much precedent for any of it to begin with. My whole premise lies in the belief that the FBI talked to him because they had a bigger agenda than him. That's been clear enough through this whole episode. He was a pain in this whole thing. People get away with much worse all the time.

Still, I've never heard a good answer for why the judge waited 7 months to hand down a decision, let alone one that was opposite of what the DOJ was recommending, which is beyond normal. The DOJ withdrawing their case was unusual, yes, and it wouldn't surprise me if that was some political greasing the wheels for that outcome with the DOJ.

All that said, I'm a strong advocate for walling off the WH from the intelligence agencies. I'm not a fan of how much influence the President has with the DOJ and CIA.

 

[MT15]

There has to be a reason Flynn lied about his conversation. We just don’t know what that reason is. I tend to think Trump told him to lie, and even though Flynn should have known the FBI was listening to the call, he lied anyway.

Basically, I think this pardon is a self-serving act by Trump. Flynn could undoubtedly tell some things about Trump that he would like to keep secret. It buys Flynn’s silence, but at the price of doing away with Flynn’s ability to plead the fifth, if what I read is true. That could be why Trump asked Barr to get the case dropped, so he wouldn’t have to pardon him.

I do hope whoever is the next AG gets to the bottom of all the corruption from this administration. All the dirty laundry needs to be aired, imo. The only way to make Trump irrelevant is to expose him and all his weaknesses. Show his taxes, show his fraud and corruption. Make everything public.

 

[DaveXA]

There has to be a reason Flynn lied about his conversation. We just don’t know what that reason is. I tend to think Trump told him to lie, and even though Flynn should have known the FBI was listening to the call, he lied anyway.

Basically, I think this pardon is a self-serving act by Trump. Flynn could undoubtedly tell some things about Trump that he would like to keep secret. It buys Flynn’s silence, but at the price of doing away with Flynn’s ability to plead the fifth, if what I read is true. That could be why Trump asked Barr to get the case dropped, so he wouldn’t have to pardon him.

I do hope whoever is the next AG gets to the bottom of all the corruption from this administration. All the dirty laundry needs to be aired, imo. The only way to make Trump irrelevant is to expose him and all his weaknesses. Show his taxes, show his fraud and corruption. Make everything public.

Unless they find something ironclad, making everything public is wishful thinking. And if there's any remote chance it would impact national security, it's not gonna become public. I'd love it if you're right, but I'm skeptical it will happen.

 

[Lapaz]

There has to be a reason Flynn lied about his conversation. We just don’t know what that reason is. I tend to think Trump told him to lie, and even though Flynn should have known the FBI was listening to the call, he lied anyway.

Basically, I think this pardon is a self-serving act by Trump. Flynn could undoubtedly tell some things about Trump that he would like to keep secret. It buys Flynn’s silence, but at the price of doing away with Flynn’s ability to plead the fifth, if what I read is true. That could be why Trump asked Barr to get the case dropped, so he wouldn’t have to pardon him.

I do hope whoever is the next AG gets to the bottom of all the corruption from this administration. All the dirty laundry needs to be aired, imo. The only way to make Trump irrelevant is to expose him and all his weaknesses. Show his taxes, show his fraud and corruption. Make everything public.

Not being able to plead the 5th due to self incrimination could be a big deal. Whoever Trump pardons can testify against Trump, so this could backfire on him. The question is will Flynn and others pardoned by loyal to Trump or the country?

 

[MT15]

If they are subpoenaed, and are not eligible to take the Fifth, what other option would they have? I suppose he could perjure himself, but that’s not a great option. Or flee to another country,

 

[Lapaz]

If they are subpoenaed, and are not eligible to take the Fifth, what other option would they have? I suppose he could perjure himself, but that’s not a great option. Or flee to another country,

Can the pardon cover future perjury? I think it can. Then it would come down to where his loyalty lies. Country or Trump.

 

[insidejob]

He lied to the FBI about the Russian contacts with the ambassador. Period. He wasn't coerced to lie. The FBI didn't do anything wrong. They asked him questions to which they knew the answers to see whether he could be trusted. I think they do that routinely. He proved to be a liar, then he almost did the right thing by agreeing to cooperate, even if it was self-serving, but then changed course to continue to obfuscate and protect Trump. Flynn is garbage, and he deserved punishment.

I'm just quoting this for posterity in case there is anyone confused about how this went down. He also supposedly cooperated with Russia in other matters that he was never even charged with, which may be changing soon. And let's not forget that Rudy is under investigation and will likely be charged after January 20th.

Trump can pardon everyone including himself for these federal crimes. Good thing for the rule of law is that he can't pardon himself for crimes which the SDNY has been sitting on and state charges coming from multiple states. He'd be the dumbest man on earth (if he hasn't already proven that) if he doesn't just flee to Russia before Biden's inauguration.

I honestly hope he thinks he can't be touched and his whole family goes down. And deservedly so. Screw the whole lot of them.

 

[DaveXA]

I'm just quoting this for posterity in case there is anyone confused about how this went down. He also supposedly cooperated with Russia in other matters that he was never even charged with, which may be changing soon. And let's not forget that Rudy is under investigation and will likely be charged after January 20th.

Trump can pardon everyone including himself for these federal crimes. Good thing for the rule of law is that he can't pardon himself for crimes which the SDNY has been sitting on and state charges coming from multiple states. He'd be the dumbest man on earth (if he hasn't already proven that) if he doesn't just flee to Russia before Biden's inauguration.

I honestly hope he thinks he can't be touched and his whole family goes down. And deservedly so. Screw the whole lot of them.

I actually hope you're right. We'll see i guess.

 

[MT15]

Can the pardon cover future perjury? I think it can. Then it would come down to where his loyalty lies. Country or Trump.

i don‘t think you can pardon someone for future crimes

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Can the pardon cover future perjury? I think it can. Then it would come down to where his loyalty lies. Country or Trump.

Pardons can only cover events that have happened, not future events. For example, Ford's pardon of Nixon specifically covered everything while he was president. It ended at the point when he resigned.

IIRC, there's either case law or regulations saying as such.

 

[FullMonte]

I don't think there was much precedent for any of it to begin with. My whole premise lies in the belief that the FBI talked to him because they had a bigger agenda than him. That's been clear enough through this whole episode. He was a pain in this whole thing. People get away with much worse all the time.

While that's true, and I'm certain that the FBI went after him because they had him dead to rights and they thought he could help them with the bigger investigation. But, that doesn't change the overall issue. He lied. He could have said, "yes, I had that conversation because I thought that if Russia reacted, it would only make things worse, so I thought by getting them to hold off until after the inauguration, we could calm things down." Instead, he denied having the conversation, and made up a false story to back up his lie.

All that said, I'm a strong advocate for walling off the WH from the intelligence agencies. I'm not a fan of how much influence the President has with the DOJ and CIA.

In all fairness about that, it's fairly uncommon for a president to influence the DOJ and CIA to the extent that Trump has done. They might ask questions to lead in a certain direction, but it's unheard of for them to take the kind of direct action to get them to do specific actions to aid the president.