What would RUSA and DUSA look like? (1 Viewer)

[CajuninVA]

Optimus Prime's post about Civil War 2 really feels a little too plausible for me to want to think about it. But knowing your destination is important in informing you in if you feel a journey is worth it or not. So, in that vein, I'm asking what do people feel like a Republican USA (RUSA) and Democratic USA (DUSA) would look like if they formed? Is that the wrong form of the question and should it be Conservative USA and Progressive USA? I don't want to get caught up on who gets what geographically. I'm asking about what kind of government would there be? Any guaranteed rights? What role does religion play? Who is and isn't welcome? What kind of economy? How are people educated? How likely is that government to succeed?

And if I think too hard about this, I feel like the above option is much better than what is likely to happen. I fear an attempt to have a population minority government rule the majority. And pretty soon the people who "hate" government overreach are using that exact thing to push their agenda/beliefs on others.

I don't necessarily have an answer to offer on my own question. I feel like the initial thoughts I put down are a bit stereotypical. But then again, I feel like at least for RUSA, stereotypes work because they don't necessarily generate the types of folks that challenge the norms. DUSA on the other hand seems like it could start out Utopian in intent but would have to track back to pragmatism and realism at some point.

 

[Taurus]

But it completely is in their (MAGA) mindset. You see, the real "patriots" are those who want to preserve the USA, not those liberal, progressive Democrats. There are to many minorities, immigrants and liberals in the USA. So if the real "patriots" need to separate from the rest of the other people to preserve the USA, then that's what it takes.

They're already doing this by moving to states like Florida and Texas where they have supermajorities in government and can continue to concentrate power to live out there repressive utopia. The problem is there aren't enough of them and they're losing states like Georgia and Arizona in the process, so best to separate now.

How many pickup trucks fly both the Confederate and US flags? Tons. Cognitive dissonance is addictive, for sure.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Guess this can go here
================

ONTARIO, Ore. — The Snake River has formed the border of Oregon and Idaho for more than a century and a half, slicing through fields of onions, sugar beets and wheat that roll out for miles through Treasure Valley.

Here on the Oregon side, where Bob Wheatley has lived his entire life, are a collection of high-end cannabis shops, a new Planned Parenthood clinic, and gas prices a dollar higher than those just over the river.

Across the river in the town of Fruitland, in western Idaho, new housing subdivisions stretch out for miles from the main streets. Agriculture, bottling and construction businesses that just months ago were based in Oregon are thriving.

One of Fruitland’s new problems is building enough schools to accommodate the out-of-state arrivals, many of them from Oregon.

“Things have changed,” said Wheatley, who retired recently after five decades as a local pharmacist. “And it’s the politics that have changed fastest.”

These twin towns across an old border straddle a seam in the nation’s deepening political polarization, neighboring opposites living under starkly different laws.

The river separates states that, perhaps more than in any other part of the nation, embrace the two parties’ most extreme positions on gun control, abortion rights, environmental regulation, drug legalization and other issues at the center of the American political debate.

The result in eastern Oregon, from the volcanic Cascade Range to this border town, is a sense of profound political alienation. The disaffection among conservatives has spawned a movement to change the state’s political dynamic in a novel if quixotic way — rather than relocate or change the politics, which seems impossible to many here, why not move the border and become residents who live under the rules of Idaho?

This is no small task.

Both the Oregon and Idaho state legislatures, which are controlled by Democrats and Republicans, respectively, would have to approve a border shift, which in this case would be the most significant geographically since Western states began forming in the mid-19th century. The issue would then go to the U.S. Congress.

But, as more than two dozen interviews across the state made clear, there is momentum behind the cause among a lightly populated region of ranch land, swift rivers and vast pine forests. It is known formally as the Greater Idaho movement.

So far 12 counties in central and eastern Oregon have voted in favor of local ballot measures that compel county leaders to study the idea of moving the border about 270 miles west. The movement envisions 14 full counties joining Idaho, along with parts of others.

A 13th county is scheduled to take up the question on the May 2024 ballot. The region accounts for less than 10 percent of Oregon’s population, but most of its territory.

The push to change the border is rooted in policy differences and a sense that, in Oregon, there will be no way for conservatives to influence the laws and regulations made by the elected representatives of the far more numerous Democratic voters who live on the western side of the Cascades.

Idaho offers a much more comfortable political home for eastern Oregon’s conservatives, who live in many of the most racially homogenous counties in the state. In nearly every county that has voted to explore joining Idaho, White residents account for more than 80 percent of the population……..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/09/15/oregon-republicans-border-move-idaho/

 

[CoolBrees]

We would love nothing more than for those freeloading troglodytes to leave and remove their worthless burden.

Unfortunately Idaho doesn't want them as they are a giant suck on the tax base.

They are rubes that are mad that they live in a liberal stronghold. We even gave them a seat at the table when we redrew our congressional maps to add our new seat.

Snowflakes all of them

 

[Optimus Prime]

We would love nothing more than for those freeloading troglodytes to leave and remove their worthless burden.

Unfortunately Idaho doesn't want them as they are a giant suck on the tax base.

They are rubes that are mad that they live in a liberal stronghold. We even gave them a seat at the table when we redrew our congressional maps to add our new seat.

Snowflakes all of them

Don’t beat around the bush

Why don’t you say how you really feel?

 

[CoolBrees]

Don’t beat around the bush

Why don’t you say how you really feel?

Eastern Oregon = Falcons fans

That is about as clear as I can be

ETA- The more I think about this comparison the more I like it.

Eastern Oregon and Their stadium. Both are sparsely populated shirtholes with wrong headed malcontents

 

[Optimus Prime]

from Bill Maher
==========
I love historians. In college, I majored in history. But I don’t buy the stance that historians are always selling on cable news that “America’s like a cat—it always lands on its feet.” I don’t buy that just because something didn’t happen before, it can’t happen now. Rome didn’t fall and didn’t fall and didn’t fall—and then it did. Gonorrhea has been around for a long time, and we learned to kill it with penicillin, but now there’s a drug-resistant super gonorrhea and we can’t.

Was incivility bad at other times in our history? I’m sure it was—I’ve heard the anecdotes. I know that during a brawl in the House chamber in 1798, Matthew Lyon of Vermont tried to beat Roger Griswold of Connecticut with a pair of iron tongs. I don’t care. What’s going on in America lately isn’t two gentlemen slapping each other in the face with gloves.

Marjorie Taylor Greene didn’t invent our country’s polarization, but she’s playing with fire when she says, “We need a national divorce. We need to separate by red states and blue states.” Ben Shapiro has also floated the idea that our “best hope” now is a “friendly separation” of states. Sounds crazy, but a full third of likely voters agree with them and approve of a national divorce. Texas is the most enthusiastic: In a 2022 poll, 65% of voters there said they were ready to split, including 59% of Democrats.

I’d like to remind them of one thing: America is a family. And the definition of “family” is “people who hate each other without resorting to violence.” Never forget the single shining truth about democracy: It means sharing a country with people you can’t stand. If we want to simply exist, we’re going to have to find a way to work together. Like the Rolling Stones, because we also need a comeback tour to pay our bills.

Take it from someone who’s traveled this country my whole life: There are no red states or blue states. They call toss-up states “purple states,” but in reality all the states are purple. If you win an election in America 60% to 40%, it’s considered a landslide. We can’t have a second civil war because the two sides aren’t neatly separated like they were for the first one; we’re all swirled together and marbled in. The Mason-Dixon Line of today would cut through states, cities, streets—even bedrooms. There are 3.8 million Biden voters in Texas and 4.5 million Trump voters in California. We can’t go to war because I think my dry cleaners might be behind enemy lines.

Donald Trump’s middle name might as well be “existential threat”—and I have not been shy about calling him that myself. But the other side sees Democratic control of government in exactly the same way, and it’s unfortunately no longer the case that they’re completely wrong about that. When both sides believe the other guy taking over means the end of the world—yes, you can have a civil war.

One night on the road I had a driver who hailed from Bosnia. He left because the city of Sarajevo became a war-torn hellscape, and he said to me: “What I am seeing here now is exactly what I saw in Bosnia then. Next-door neighbors who despise each other.” He was telling me that hate on this level can only be sustained for so long before becoming actual war.

For decades Sarajevo was a diverse city where Serbs, Croats and Muslims lived together as friendly neighbors. In 1984, they hosted the Winter Olympics. Eight years later, people were getting shot by snipers when they went out for milk. Nobody thought a war like that was possible in Europe so “late” in history. They believed Europe had passed the point of being vulnerable to such a thing. It hadn’t, and never will, and neither will we.


Or think about Northern Ireland, which went through a period where political hatred, born of religion, turned into something called “the Troubles,” which meant the hatred got so bad it could not be contained by the usual means of disagreement. So people lived with bombings and snipings and urban warfare.

In America, our warring factions aren’t Catholics and Protestants—but that same level of hatred, of “otherization,” is happening between Democrats and Republicans. We’ve grown less religious, but that’s because politics has become our religion. We used to pray for the nation. Now each side prays the other doesn’t destroy the nation. On one side, the Church of Woke wants to cleanse us of our past, and on the other, the Cult of Trump wants to resurrect it.

Trump is often depicted as some kind of religious warrior, and out of office, he sometimes talks like an end-times religious nut. He speaks of an “epic battle” against “sinister forces” and says, “I am your warrior. I am your justice. And for those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution.” Thanks, Batman. But that’s where we are: Your fellow citizens who support the other party aren’t just wrong, they’re heretics who have to be destroyed.

Today, 94% of adults are cool with interracial marriage; it’s interparty marriage that’s a deal breaker. In 1960, only 5% of Americans had a negative reaction to the idea of marrying someone from a different political party; now it’s 38%. For liberals, bringing home a Republican is the new “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner.”.................

MSN

https://www.wsj.com/politics/red-and-blue-america-cant-just-go-their-separate-ways-66a17cdb?mod=politics_lead_story

 

[Lapaz]

One economic downside for DUSA I think is that industry would mostly relocate out of DUSA for the lower regulations and taxes. DUSA would need to do a lot of importing.

I think that is a Republican perspective. Most of the world's advanced economies are more progressive than the U.S., but they have plenty of industry. While some industries may relocate, new ones will replace them. Regulations are usually intended to protect consumers and the country. Often the market punishes companies that abuse their workers and their country.

 

[Lapaz]

I think you're trying to describe that which is liquid, as if it were a solid with defined end points.

if one party gets ahead of the other party too much, then the party that is "out" will modify their stance such to bring it back into balance. In that regard politics is liquid.

Politics is also a time traveler. An issue that was a progressive pipe dream during one time period will age and turn into a Conservative bed rock during another period, That's also a liquid quality.

In the past parties have sought to adjust their views to attract more voters, but Republicans are using a different approach. They are installing laws and policies to allow them to rule with a minority of the voters. Gerrymandering, making it harder to vote, and judicial capture are allowing Republicans to resist modifying their stances. If they can convert us to an authoritarian state, they will never have to worry about changing their stances.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Californians could vote to secede from the union as early as 2028, now that organizers have received official permission to begin to collect signatures on the initiative.

Secretary of State Shirley Weber announced Thursday that Marcus Ruiz Evans, the central proponent of the measure, must collect at least 546,651 signatures from registered voters — 5 percent of the total votes cast for governor in the November 2022 general election — in order for it to be included on the November 2028 ballot.

Ruiz Evans, a Fresno resident, has until July 22, 2025 to submit the signatures to county election officials, according to Weber’s announcement.

“Calexit means that our laws are determined by the people of California and not unelected bureaucrats in Washington that we didn’t elect,” Ruiz Evans’ website states.

“It means that we get a government that begins and ends at the borders of California. It means an end to the money siphoned from the pockets of California taxpayers. Most importantly, it means that for the first time in our lives we control our own destiny,” the statement added.

Ruiz Evans, who has been angling for secession since 2012, is a staunch Donald Trump opponent, unlike his former partner in the effort, who has now abandoned the project after years of attempts.

He told The Independent that the two parted ways over polarizing political differences that were impossible to overcome, and described being questioned by FBI agents at his front door about Louis Marinelli, a staunch Trumper and Buffalo, New York native whose secessionist activities were allegedly funded by Russian intelligence.

Marinelli has said he had no idea that Aleksandr Ionov, his alleged Russian benefactor, was linked to the Kremlin’s security services until after Ionov and a handful of others were indicted by the feds in 2023.……

California secession proponents get green light to take next steps toward ‘Calexit’

“People think if you’re a secessionist, you’re crazy,” Calexit leader Marcus Ruiz Evans told The Independent

www.independent.co.uk

 

[MT15]

Just as stupid as the red state efforts.

 

[J-DONK]

Just as stupid as the red state efforts.

The only difference is Cali puts in more then it takes out. I get the frustration. All the red states never having issues with FEMA assistance, and then having Republicans doing this to CA. It's like treating the person paying all your bills poorly.

 

[Dragon]

I think that is a Republican perspective. Most of the world's advanced economies are more progressive than the U.S., but they have plenty of industry. While some industries may relocate, new ones will replace them. Regulations are usually intended to protect consumers and the country. Often the market punishes companies that abuse their workers and their country.

Exactly. That is precisely what Denmark has done. The entire industry has transitioned from traditional blue-collar jobs to high-tech sectors, supported by progressive retraining policies. These policies enable workers to acquire new technical skills as older ones become obsolete, all while continuing to receive a salary.
Today, our industries are highly advanced and require a significant level of technical expertise to operate. This spans a wide range of sectors, including pharmaceuticals, sustainable energy products (such as wind turbines, geothermal heating systems, and air-to-air heat pumps), agriculture, and processed food production.
The high level of technical knowledge needed in these industries contributes to a generally higher education level across society. This, in turn, boosts the average salary of workers and benefits society as a whole.

 

[bird]

It doesn’t matter whether or not California puts in more than it takes out.

The changes that would happen would be tectonic in nature.

Among the things to consider…

Establishing its own currency which would need to be made as extremely stable as possible
Take over functions that have been done by Washington DC
Take over, possibly, Social Security payments as well as Medicare/Medicaid
Establish trade arrangements with the world and the US
Establish a department of defense
Establish treaties regarding water usage with the US
Deal with potential loss of revenue and resulting unemployment if Long Beach loses shipping

What Calexiters don’t get is that despite the size of the California economy it is because of the size of the US economy as well as the domestic market which is the basis for its success.

 

[TampaJoe]

It doesn’t matter whether or not California puts in more than it takes out.

The changes that would happen would be tectonic in nature.

Among the things to consider…

Establishing its own currency which would need to be made as extremely stable as possible
Take over functions that have been done by Washington DC
Take over, possibly, Social Security payments as well as Medicare/Medicaid
Establish trade arrangements with the world and the US
Establish a department of defense
Establish treaties regarding water usage with the US
Deal with potential loss of revenue and resulting unemployment if Long Beach loses shipping

What Calexiters don’t get is that despite the size of the California economy it is because of the size of the US economy as well as the domestic market which is the basis for its success.

Unintended consequences. They can bite.

 

[SystemShock]

It doesn’t matter whether or not California puts in more than it takes out.

You sure about that?

The changes that would happen would be tectonic in nature.

Among the things to consider…

Establishing its own currency which would need to be made as extremely stable as possible
Take over functions that have been done by Washington DC
Take over, possibly, Social Security payments as well as Medicare/Medicaid
Establish trade arrangements with the world and the US
Establish a department of defense
Establish treaties regarding water usage with the US
Deal with potential loss of revenue and resulting unemployment if Long Beach loses shipping

Now do a list of considerations for the other side, like losing Long Beach, losing the tax revenue that is used to pay Medicare/Medicaid, highways funs, etc for the rest of the U.S., losing silicon valley...

 

[Optimus Prime]

Just for arguments sake how exactly would that work?

Texas or California gets it on the ballot and the people vote to secede

Now what?

The wheels start moving on a state and federal level to make that happen?

Or would it be like the kids voting for no more vegetables at dinner? The parents aren't going to be like "they took a vote, what can we do?"

 

[superchuck500]

Just for arguments sake how exactly would that work?

Texas or California gets it on the ballot and the people vote to secede

Now what?

The wheels start moving on a state and federal level to make that happen?

Or would it be like the kids voting for no more vegetables at dinner? The parents aren't going to be like "they took a vote, what can we do?"

Well, we had a very major episode in this country over this very issue - "Can a state, once admitted to the union, unilaterally determine to leave the union?" There's some fascinating historical sources on this from the secession crisis era - but I don't think any of it answers the question.

There is no basis in the Constitution or in federal law for a state to leave the union. Some contend that if you believe in democracy and self-determination, it must therefore follow that a state can leave the union. But there's no structure for it, so how - would it have to an amendment to the relevant state constitution or can it be by referendum?

It would appear that in California's case (and perhaps most others) if it were to secede, it would have to be by state constitutional amendment. https://lao.ca.gov/BallotAnalysis/Initiative/2017-005

 

[Lapaz]

Californians could vote to secede from the union as early as 2028, now that organizers have received official permission to begin to collect signatures on the initiative.

Secretary of State Shirley Weber announced Thursday that Marcus Ruiz Evans, the central proponent of the measure, must collect at least 546,651 signatures from registered voters — 5 percent of the total votes cast for governor in the November 2022 general election — in order for it to be included on the November 2028 ballot.

Ruiz Evans, a Fresno resident, has until July 22, 2025 to submit the signatures to county election officials, according to Weber’s announcement.

“Calexit means that our laws are determined by the people of California and not unelected bureaucrats in Washington that we didn’t elect,” Ruiz Evans’ website states.

“It means that we get a government that begins and ends at the borders of California. It means an end to the money siphoned from the pockets of California taxpayers. Most importantly, it means that for the first time in our lives we control our own destiny,” the statement added.

Ruiz Evans, who has been angling for secession since 2012, is a staunch Donald Trump opponent, unlike his former partner in the effort, who has now abandoned the project after years of attempts.

He told The Independent that the two parted ways over polarizing political differences that were impossible to overcome, and described being questioned by FBI agents at his front door about Louis Marinelli, a staunch Trumper and Buffalo, New York native whose secessionist activities were allegedly funded by Russian intelligence.

Marinelli has said he had no idea that Aleksandr Ionov, his alleged Russian benefactor, was linked to the Kremlin’s security services until after Ionov and a handful of others were indicted by the feds in 2023.……

California secession proponents get green light to take next steps toward ‘Calexit’

“People think if you’re a secessionist, you’re crazy,” Calexit leader Marcus Ruiz Evans told The Independent

www.independent.co.uk

It is smart to use 2028 for the exit date, because Trump would treat California like Netanyahu treats Gaza. He would view it as another civil war. Maybe he wouldn’t go as far as Netanyahu, but he certainly would be ruthless. I think California should join other Western states, rather than go it alone. I’m not sure if red states would be opposed to them leaving. I just hope they accept immigrants like me. The Northeastern states should join Canada. That would leave a poor US, and most of its brains gone. On the bright side, it would solve the immigration problem for the red states, because few immigrants would want to join what remains.