What are your important issues? (1 Viewer)

[wardorican]

Forget the current headlines. Forget the manufactured talking points. What are the big issues you care about? Or the small ones that don't get enough attention?

I'm just going to rattle off a few. I may dig into these more later. In no special order...

1. Infrastructure investment. The major categories being road transportation, flood protection / drainage, electrical grid resiliency, and better mass transit, especially rail. Our rail systems, outside of a few areas like Chicago, NYC, DC.. are just awful. They don't serve enough of the areas. They aren't tying the Suburbs, and towns nearby to the major city centers and major concentrations of Industry.
   1. A - I'd have much preferred no tax cut for the wealthy, and use that money towards Infrastructure. I don't mind some of the corporate tax cuts (not a fan of profitable companies finding ways to pay $0 in taxes.. that's unfair), but take a little back to go towards infrastructure and mass transit, which will boost productivity and lower congestion in major cities.
2. Wage growth. Not just min wage, all wages. Not sure what the government policy could be to drive this, but it's a huge pet issue for me.
3. Technology. Finding the balance between a company being large enough to have stability/security (think Apple, Microsoft, Samsung) to have things work well, but no so large as to stifle all competition and drive up prices. Also, who controls/owns our data. If my data is so valuable, why can't I be compensated for it?
4. Education funding. It's ridiculous how much the States cut from Colleges and how little they controlled their growth since the 1990's. That's why tuition is out of control. So, it's not just the funding issue, but also the lack of forcing public Universities to cap operating budget increases. In college, tuition increases was probably one of the biggest things I tried to fight against when in Student Government. We usually failed, but I did get one win on that topic, when I realized the committee that year was being somewhat dishonest about the increases, and called them out in public about it.

I care about a lot of other things, but I'm going to stop with these four.

 

[Beach Friends]

While ignoring my clarification and still ignoring the entire purpose of public schools. Your example was ridiculous and well below the level of discourse we should expect.

If you want to address my actual point, I am always willing to discuss it.

We teach some forms of morality throughout the education process, whether it be learning the virtues of sharing, hard work, empathy etc in lower grades, to philosophy and literature in higher grades. It doesn't even need to be reflected in the course title, but can also be refected in the curriculum and course materials.

I don't know how this is even in dispute.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

I think it’s pretty self evident that the process of developing a curriculum requires value judgements. And value judgements do incorporate aspects that could be broadly construed as moral judgements. Reading the debate, I’m not sure that is what is actually in dispute.

I think the contention meant to be expressed here is whether religiously derived value judgements should not just be incorporated into that curriculum setting but be an overriding factor? I.E. when it comes to matters like sex education or evolution.

Certainly a person has the right and ability to use the electoral process to strong arm their concept of morality onto the curriculum. However, that is not an argument that substantiates why such a value judgement should supersede another, and without the convincing articulation of a holistic defense of the position, it does suggest the argument likely doesn’t have much of one to begin with. And if it does, refusing to present it calls into question why the person is participating and debating in such a discussion centered on the merits of particular value judgements anyways?

 

[SystemShock]

I think it’s pretty self evident that the process of developing a curriculum requires value judgements. And value judgements do incorporate aspects that could be broadly construed as moral judgements.

What moral values do you think should involved in putting together a curriculum that includes grammar, math, chemistry, history, shop...?

 

[JimEverett]

What moral values do you think should involved in putting together a curriculum that includes grammar, math, chemistry, history, shop...?

For starters, the value judgment that spending time on those things is more valuable than, say, masturbating or fishing.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

What moral values do you think are involved in putting together a curriculum that includes grammar, math, chemistry, history, shop...?

Again, I’m speaking in the broadest sense, but in terms of how you present historical events it is going to require deciding whether 3rd grade is the appropriate time to start showing kids the ways the Nazis tortured Jews, socialists, and gays. To show the class Saving Private Ryan.

That is why after that I went on to contextualize what I suspect is the real cleavage here. Which is injecting and allowing the superseding of religiously derived moral judgements above a secular and largely amorally derived curriculum setting process.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

We teach some forms of morality throughout the education process, whether it be learning the virtues of sharing, hard work, empathy etc in lower grades, to philosophy and literature in higher grades. It doesn't even need to be reflected in the course title, but can also be refected in the curriculum and course materials.

I don't know how this is even in dispute.

My point was religious morality overriding portions of the curriculum that serve a legitimate purpose for the good of society. Hard work, empathy, sharing, and other similar concepts also serve a legitimate purpose for the good of society. The fact that they also happen to be reflected in moral codes (for both religious and non religious people) is irrelevant.

 

[Beach Friends]

What moral values do you think should involved in putting together a curriculum that includes grammar, math, chemistry, history, shop...?

Let's take the least obvious, shop. A student can learn that even if he is never going to use a tool again, she should at the end of the day return the tool to it's proper place, in as good or better condition than when he found it. He can learn to look for boards that have already been cut that most closely fit his needs to avoid the waste of pulling out a new board. There are opportunities all around.

 

[SystemShock]

Let's take the least obvious, shop. A student can learn that even if he is never going to use a tool again, she should at the end of the day return the tool to it's proper place, in as good or better condition than when he found it. He can learn to look for boards that have already been cut that most closely fit his needs to avoid the waste of pulling out a new board. There are opportunities all around.

Is that "moral" or practical?

 

[Intensesaint]

Is that "moral" or practical?

Both in that case. Because it's good morals to return the tool and just not keep it for yourself(stealing), and it's also practical because the tool will be in the same place you got it the first time and easier to find.

If we didn't have morality in our schools then we would be teaching students how to rob banks, steal cars, and other criminal activities along with the sciences and arts. Morality tells us we don't teach our children how to steal or commit other criminal acts.

 

[SystemShock]

Again, I’m speaking in the broadest sense, but in terms of how you present historical events it is going to require deciding whether 3rd grade is the appropriate time to start showing kids the ways the Nazis tortured Jews, socialists, and gays. To show the class Saving Private Ryan.

I can agree with that. Although, in my point of view, that isn't necessarily "moral". I view it the same way I view not teaching 3rd graders advanced calculus: it is not practical, as 3rd grade students wouldn't have the math skills to tackle calculus.

 

[Beach Friends]

Is that "moral" or practical?

Both, and I think moral teachings often come with a practical benefit- even it it's not immediately realized by the actor.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Let's take the least obvious, shop. A student can learn that even if he is never going to use a tool again, she should at the end of the day return the tool to it's proper place, in as good or better condition than when he found it. He can learn to look for boards that have already been cut that most closely fit his needs to avoid the waste of pulling out a new board. There are opportunities all around.

Life skills do not belong to a religious moral code. They are things that offer a legitimate benefit to society as a whole.

 

[JimEverett]

My point was religious morality overriding portions of the curriculum that serve a legitimate purpose for the good of society. Hard work, empathy, sharing, and other similar concepts also serve a legitimate purpose for the good of society. The fact that they also happen to be reflected in moral codes (for both religious and non religious people) is irrelevant.

So the source of the value judgment, as opposed to value judgments themselves, is problematic. In other words, if I went to the school board and argued that we should ban book x because I think descriptions of premarital sex might lead to kids having premarital sex and that is against my religion then I am wrong. But if someone wants to ban book y because the character is a racist and I think it might lead to kids having racist beliefs which is against my non-religious moral code is a more valid objection?

 

[SystemShock]

Both in that case. Because it's good morals to return the tool and just not keep it for yourself(stealing), and it's also practical because the tool will be in the same place you got it the first time and easier to find.

Really? A student old enough to be in shop class doesn't know what stealing is?

 

[JimEverett]

I do not see a difference between "practical" and "moral" in this discussion. They are both value judgments and mean similar things. At best when you use "practical" you are simply shifting the "moral" to a higher level.

As in - "practical for what?"
- You should study shop.
- Why?
- because it is practical
- how so?
- you can get a job and make money

The latter is a moral take - getting a job and making money are "good"

 

[SystemShock]

So the source of the value judgment, as opposed to value judgments themselves, is problematic. In other words, if I went to the school board and argued that we should ban book x because I think descriptions of premarital sex might lead to kids having premarital sex and that is against my religion then I am wrong. But if someone wants to ban book y because the character is a racist and I think it might lead to kids having racist beliefs which is against my non-religious moral code is a more valid objection?

Personally, I think both would be wrong.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Both in that case. Because it's good morals to return the tool and just not keep it for yourself(stealing), and it's also practical because the tool will be in the same place you got it the first time and easier to find.

That's not a binary choice. It's not either (morally) replace the tool or (immorally) steal the tool. Leaving the tool on a workbench is failing to replace it while also failing to steal it.

If we didn't have morality in our schools then we would be teaching students how to rob banks, steal cars, and other criminal activities along with the sciences and arts. Morality tells us we don't teach our children how to steal or commit other criminal acts.

This is the same as the ridiculous "cartel" argument that was already shown to be invalid.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

Is that "moral" or practical?

Exactly, or just simply normative setting behavior meant to reduce the chance of injury or accident, maximize the life of property, and minimize waste.

Sure, broadly speaking it can be argued to have a moral component, but imbuing morality is not really the diving force of the curriculum on Shop class