Virginia teacher sues school after being fired for not using transgender student's pronouns... (1 Viewer)

[crosswatt]

A Virginia high school teacher who was fired for refusing to use a transgender student's preferred pronouns has filed a lawsuit against school officials and the board.
Peter Vlaming, who was a French teacher at West Point High School, said he was fired because he would not use pronouns such as "him" and "his" to refer to a female student who was transitioning to male.

According to the suit filed Monday in King William County, using the male pronouns would have "violated" Vlaming's "conscience" and went against his religious beliefs, so he called the student by his preferred name during class and avoided using pronouns altogether.

Virginia teacher sues school after being fired for not using transgender student's pronouns

Peter Vlaming, who taught French, was fired from West Point High School in December 2018. He said using the preferred pronouns would violate his religious beliefs.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Krodwhodat]

I don’t think he should have been fired especially with the lack of clear policy, but what a dick move to refuse to call a student what they prefer to be called (within reason, and imo a pronoun is reasonable). Would this teacher refuse to call a student by their middle name if they preferred that, or a nickname? Sure he can do that but it’s just a shirtty thing to cling to.

We do agree on this. I’m as conservative as they come but come on who cares the pronoun.

 

[coldseat]

Another thought for me is why are we allowing an 8th grader to transition? I think at some point it has to be brought up that age is important in these types of decisions. In 8th grade I wasn’t even sure what I wanted for breakfast much less perform a surgical procedure or life altering decision that would stay for the rest of my life. There needs to be more oversight in these types of issues.

Oversight by who? You want the government to decide when people can transition? What's your preferred age for people to transition? 18? 25? 30?

I ask because what your proposing gets into some really murky issues that I'd rather government stay out of. I've publicly expressed my personal doubt as to what age is appropriate for a young person to transition, but that is due to my own confusion/lack of knowledge on the subject. But ultimately these are decisions that are very personal and that I believe people need to make of their own accord. When they're younger than 18, as a society we entrust the parents to help that young person with those decisions. But even then, parents aren't always the best guides to help their children, as they often have too many of their own issues to help their child in these situation. We all know that religious issues and ignorance with gender dysphoria/homosexuality run deep in this country.

Some people are ready at much younger ages, and they know it. They know who they are and how they want to live their lives. We need to respect that as a society. Other people take longer to understand themselves and who they are. We need to allow them the time to figure it out. Trying to put artificial constraints around that because of our own personal discomfort with something is wrong.

 

[Krodwhodat]

Oversight meaning a more mature individual themself. That’s who should be making the final decision but at a time when maturity should be somewhat achieved.

 

[Krodwhodat]

Oversight by who? You want the government to decide when people can transition? What's your preferred age for people to transition? 18? 25? 30?

I ask because what your proposing gets into some really murky issues that I'd rather government stay out of. I've publicly expressed by personal doubt as to what age is appropriate for a young person to transition, but that is due to my own confusion/lack of knowledge on the subject. But ultimately these are decisions that are very personal and that I believe people need to make of their own accord. When they're younger than 18, as a society we entrust the parents to help that young person with those decisions. But even then, parents aren't always the best guides to help their children, as they often have too many of their own issues to help their child in these situation. We all know that religious issues and ignorance with gender dysphoria/homosexuality run deep in this country.

Some people are ready at much younger ages, and they know it. They know who they are and how they want to live their lives. We need to respect that as a society. Other people take longer to understand themselves and who they are. We need to allow them the time to figure it out. Trying to put artificial constraints around that because of our own personal discomfort with something is wrong.

So your 13 year old comes to you and say she wants to be a mom, she has a boyfriend and they are in love and it just feels right to her. She is very mature for her age and headstrong and knows this is what she wants at 13. What do you say?

 

[coldseat]

So your 13 year old comes to you and say she wants to be a mom, she has a boyfriend and they are in love and it just feels right to her. She is very mature for her age and headstrong and knows this is what she wants at 13. What do you say?

I would counsel her to wait until she's at least 18 and probably much more. I'd tell her that caring for another human being is a humongous responsibility. I'd ask how she was going to support this child without a job, etc. I'd basically make every case for why it would be a bad idea to have a child at 13 and to explain the consequences of that decision down the road. And I'd trust that given her stated maturity, that she would be mature enough to recognize that I'm making an very valid argument.

If she went and had the child anyway, I'd do what I could to support her, but she would also have to live with the consequences of that decision.

I'm not really seeing the coloration to this topic though, other than both people being young.

 

[Ayo]

We do agree on this. I’m as conservative as they come but come on who cares the pronoun.

this can cut both ways - because in one sense, the adult should be able to use a pronoun to accommodate a student's wishes because it's "just a pronoun" but to that student (and to that teacher) it can be intimately tied to their identity and the way in which they view the world or how the world should be

when the pronoun is key to an identity, it can actually mean a lot to that person. The pronoun becomes a distinctive marker to one of the 8 core elements of identity - as central as a gender or a sexual preference or a faith and the denominations under each and able-bodiedness.

I don't think we can nor should be casually dismissive because it's "just a pronoun." We wouldn't tell a student who is, for example, Shia that we can call him or her Sunni because it's "just Muslim." Distinctions matter.

As someone who has worked with kids who have been transitioning and we just had a transgender policy meeting this very morning, including co-workers who have children who are questioning - in real, sincere ways.

I have no idea if you have encountered such a child, but there are definitely indicators and dispositions and ideas about identity that form with regard to gender and sexuality before kids are 13. This is indisputable. I've seen it. I'm friends and colleagues with parents struggling with this with their own kids.

I do not support permanent or hormonal changes, medical procedures that are going to have long term impact. And I don't think that the child, alone, should be determining this. I think identities can evolve, because science validates this and I've seen it myself over the last couple of decades of working with teens to twenty-somethings.

School boards are developing necessary policies around this and I have found that the discussions are more frequent in more progressive environments, but even conservative areas are having to tackle this.

The change on this landscape is very quickly moving, and - like I said - this very morning we're talking about policies and procedures and infrastructure, around things like language (pronouns is one example) but also bathroom space and signage.

In the interim, personally, I'm going to defer to a student's wishes on matters like these, because they are often coming from a young person who has already experienced a great deal of marginalization and my accommodation, relatively speaking, is pretty minor.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Oversight meaning a more mature individual themself. That’s who should be making the final decision but at a time when maturity should be somewhat achieved.

Aren't you describing parents?

 

[Krodwhodat]

Aren't you describing parents?

No, ultimately this has to fall on the individual. Sometimes parents want you to be something you’re not and with something like this I think the person is the only one who can truly make the decision. It’s important for the parent to be there and support or help once it’s made but ultimately is on the person. This is why I feel like a Pre-teen or teenager isn’t the right maturity or frame of mind to transition medically at those ages.

 

[LA - L.A.]

No, ultimately this has to fall on the individual. Sometimes parents want you to be something you’re not and with something like this I think the person is the only one who can truly make the decision. It’s important for the parent to be there and support or help once it’s made but ultimately is on the person. This is why I feel like a Pre-teen or teenager isn’t the right maturity or frame of mind to transition medically at those ages.

First, you said there needs to be more oversight on minors transitioning medically. Now, it seems you're saying that it should be completely forbidden. Is government prohibition the oversight that you think is needed?

 

[crosswatt]

Another thought for me is why are we allowing an 8th grader to transition? I think at some point it has to be brought up that age is important in these types of decisions. In 8th grade I wasn’t even sure what I wanted for breakfast much less perform a surgical procedure or life altering decision that would stay for the rest of my life. There needs to be more oversight in these types of issues.

I'll have to look it up, but I read something once where I think some of the permanent effects puberty can be delayed without harm via some type of hormone blocker , and there were some suggesting that it be allowed for children with gender dysmorphia as a temporary way to keep them from having to undergo a more extensive transition process in the future. But would also allow them to reassimilate to their birth gender if they no longer felt the need to switch.

I don't know if it's actually something that I support, but it seems to me keeping fluid situations temporary while a young person figures things out is not a bad path to travel.

 

[RobF]

The article said he started transitioning the summer before his 9th grade year so in between 8th and 9th would be accurate I guess. Secondly if he wants to be a girl, dress like a girl etc I have no problem with that. Maybe I wasn’t clear or you are misrepresenting what I said but preventing them from being who they are was never in what I said or how I said it. Making them wait until they are an adult to transition medically is being responsible. You can still live as a woman without transitioning medically.

You asked why they were being 'allowed to transition' and then talked about surgery. Transitioning does not necessarily involve surgery at all, and certainly not immediately. Perhaps you didn't realise that before? Because if you support someone being able to transition and live as another gender otherwise, then your original question doesn't make sense any more: why wouldn't we allow them to transition, if it can be OK?

I wanted a tattoo when I was in high school

You do get that your sense of who you are is significantly different to having a tattoo or what to have for breakfast, right? Your choices of analogy risk trivialising the subject.

Not all end this way but kids under 18 even 21 have no idea what they want in life.

There isn't some magic switch that flips at 18 or 21. There are people in their forties who have no idea what they're doing as well.

Of course it's entirely responsible to take such situations seriously. And with regard to the topic (not you personally), dismissing people's own experiences and sense of identity out of hand, saying that you simply "don't believe" that someone can have such an identity, or that they're too young to have an opinion worth respecting even if it's about themselves, is the opposite of taking it seriously. It also risks increasing the psychological stress they're under, with the consequences that brings.

 

[samiam5211]

Not specifically. But in two places it references what could be considered set gender norms as assigned by the Almighty. 1st Corinthians 11:14-15 speaks of long hair being shameful for a man but a practice of honor for a woman, and Deuteronomy 22:5 cites that men who wear women's clothes and women who wear men's clothes are an abomination. The reasons behind both are obviously pretty open for debate, but can and have been used to denounce transgender/transvestite activities as immoral. And I assume would be his scripture to back up his stance.

I guess if he is just as mad about males with long hair and women who wear pants, then I could respect this teacher's point of view a little more.

 

[Taurus]

I think we can agree that parents and the environment we grow up in can have a huge influence in who we become but that’s not always a good thing. The little girl down the street is 11 and tell my daughter she is bisexual, and summons demons. Her mother is ultra progressive and thought it was wonderful that her child was being her true self. She wore a suit and tie to her 6th grade step up program and her mother was so proud and bragged it was her idea. The little girl tried to kill herself this past summer. She wasn’t being herself she was asking for help. Not all end this way but kids under 18 even 21 have no idea what they want in life.

I'd like to address this part.

As a parent of a clinically depressed child, the things you mention may or may not be in any way tied to a suicide attempt. Parents can be as supportive as humanly possible and still be helpless in the face of f'd up brain chemistry. In addition, we've no way of knowing how many attempts didn't happen because her/his parents accepted her/him.

 

[JimEverett]

I don't think the lack of a policy addressing pronoun usage is really helpful to the teacher at all. You aren't going to have a policy for any and every single thing on earth.
I am sure there is some genral policy that this can fll under - like don't treat students differently based on race, religion, gender, etc. Or, perhaps something even more general - as a teacher you are to give students the respect they deserve.

At the same time - I would have worked with hte teacher to try to resolve his concerns. Not sure exactly how - but perhaps something along the lines of - you can call this particular student only be his preferred name if you only call all students by their preferred names. In other words - no pronoun usage at all in the classroom.

 

[V Chip]

In other words - no pronoun usage at all in the classroom.

Now I have a friend named Rufus Xavier Sarsaparilla
And I could say that "Rufus found a kangaroo
That followed Rufus home
And now that kangaroo belongs to Rufus Xavier Sarsaparilla."
Whew! I could say that, but I don't have to!
Because I got pronouns, I can say,
"He found a kangaroo that followed him home
And now it is his."*

*offer void in Virginia if teacher has religious objection to pronouns.

 

[Ayo]

I don't think the lack of a policy addressing pronoun usage is really helpful to the teacher at all. You aren't going to have a policy for any and every single thing on earth.

schools all over have a policy for *this*, though

This caused quite a stir up here at the Univ of Toronto and it's what propelled Jordan Peterson to fame. He saw an opportunity and the disaffected crowd drawn by his martyrdom and the rest is, as they say, history.

This isn't some obscure corner of school policy - most schools and districts and boards are tackling this very issue.

And I would say that explicit policy is actually quite helpful for situations like this.

 

[Lazybones]

Oversight by who? You want the government to decide when people can transition? What's your preferred age for people to transition? 18? 25? 30?

I ask because what your proposing gets into some really murky issues that I'd rather government stay out of. I've publicly expressed my personal doubt as to what age is appropriate for a young person to transition, but that is due to my own confusion/lack of knowledge on the subject. But ultimately these are decisions that are very personal and that I believe people need to make of their own accord. When they're younger than 18, as a society we entrust the parents to help that young person with those decisions. But even then, parents aren't always the best guides to help their children, as they often have too many of their own issues to help their child in these situation. We all know that religious issues and ignorance with gender dysphoria/homosexuality run deep in this country.

Some people are ready at much younger ages, and they know it. They know who they are and how they want to live their lives. We need to respect that as a society. Other people take longer to understand themselves and who they are. We need to allow them the time to figure it out. Trying to put artificial constraints around that because of our own personal discomfort with something is wrong.

This isn’t necessarily directed at you. It just seemed like the appropriate place for discussion.

The suicide rate amongst transgender youths is 4 times of a heterosexual and almost 2 times as much as a gay youth.

We as a society need to give this a lot more thought than allowing a young teenager to venture into this just because they “know” what they want.

 

[coldseat]

This isn’t necessarily directed at you. It just seemed like the appropriate place for discussion.

The suicide rate amongst transgender youths is 4 times of a heterosexual and almost 2 times as much as a gay youth.

We as a society need to give this a lot more thought than allowing a young teenager to venture into this just because they “know” what they want.

"Why" suicide rates are higher among transgender and gay youth than heterosexual youth is important. It's not because they're allowed to transition or live a gay lifestyle. It's because they aren't accepted, loved and supported, thus they feel isolated, unwanted and unworthy. If you want to lower suicide rates among transgender or homosexual youth, then support and listen to them and let them tell you what they know about themselves.

RESULTS: Transgender children showed no elevations in depression and slightly elevated anxiety relative to population averages. They did not differ from the control groups on depression symptoms and had only marginally higher anxiety symptoms.

CONCLUSIONS: Socially transitioned transgender children who are supported in their gender identity have developmentally normative levels of depression and only minimal elevations in anxiety, suggesting that psychopathology is not inevitable within this group. Especially striking is the comparison with reports of children with GID; socially transitioned transgender children have notably lower rates of internalizing psychopathology than previously reported among children with GID living as their natal sex.

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/137/3/e20153223