US strikes deal w/ Taliban to remove troops from Afghanistan (1 Viewer)

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Heathen

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Surprised I didn't see it posted anywhere. And to preface -- I know there are too many contextual complexities to name regarding this.

Props to this administration for pushing to get this done. Endless war shouldn't be what American citizens view as 'normal'.

This would be a huge win for Americans and Afghanis if this works out as planned:

The US and Nato allies have agreed to withdraw all troops within 14 months if the militants uphold the deal.

President Trump said it had been a "long and hard journey" in Afghanistan. "It's time after all these years to bring our people back home," he said.

Talks between the Afghan government and the Taliban are due to follow.

Under the agreement, the militants also agreed not to allow al-Qaeda or any other extremist group to operate in the areas they control.
 

bdb13

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Just for shirts and giggles, which presidential administration (out of the last 4 or 5 that we've had) would have done it better?
I'd lean towards Obama, maybe Bush-I like Taurus said but not quite sure given the other members of his administration. Talking out of my arse to some great extent here obviously, but feel like Obama would have had a greater appreciation for the gravity of the situation and a greater attention for the details than what I feel we've probably gotten from Biden.

Biden's dismissiveness towards Afghanistan at times in the month(s) leading up to this didn't sit very well with me at the time and it's bothered me more as time's gone on. I think that reflects as poor leadership and I don't think you would have seen that from either Obama or Bush-I.
 

coldseat

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I'd lean towards Obama, maybe Bush-I like Taurus said but not quite sure given the other members of his administration. Talking out of my arse to some great extent here obviously, but feel like Obama would have had a greater appreciation for the gravity of the situation and a greater attention for the details than what I feel we've probably gotten from Biden.

Biden's dismissiveness towards Afghanistan at times in the month(s) leading up to this didn't sit very well with me at the time and it's bothered me more as time's gone on. I think that reflects as poor leadership and I don't think you would have seen that from either Obama or Bush-I.

I think if Obama had the wherewithal to pull us out of Afghanistan in an orderly way, he would have done so after his surge in 2014. The fact that he didn't, suggest he couldn't. He elected to keep us in the forever war and pass the buck to the next president.

Maybe he could have done better in Biden's situation, but given we were at 2,500 troops when Biden took over and under a bad withdrawal agreement with the release of 5,000 Taliban fighters, I highly doubt it would have been astonishingly different. I think he would have been more likely to surge troops again and continue the protracted war. Which would have cost more American military lives and the 13 we lost in the withdrawal.
 

SaulGoodmanEsq

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The really hollow argument advanced by the right is Biden handing over all of the equipment to the Taliban. Was he supposed to just take it all away from the Afghan government and then withdraw?
 

bdb13

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I think if Obama had the wherewithal to pull us out of Afghanistan in an orderly way, he would have done so after his surge in 2014. The fact that he didn't, suggest he couldn't. He elected to keep us in the forever war and pass the buck to the next president.

Maybe he could have done better in Biden's situation, but given we were at 2,500 troops when Biden took over and under a bad withdrawal agreement with the release of 5,000 Taliban fighters, I highly doubt it would have been astonishingly different. I think he would have been more likely to surge troops again and continue the protracted war. Which would have cost more American military lives and the 13 we lost in the withdrawal.
That's fair. Yes, I suppose it's possible that Obama would have reescalated things, which I think would have certainly been worse.. but yeah obviously impossible to confidently say how anyone else would have handled it.
 

SaulGoodmanEsq

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For sure. And I think those criticisms are legitimate. Biden really dropped the ball with getting the interpreters and other assisting personnel out -- it's the right thing to do and would have been an easy bi-partisan win.
 

Saintman2884

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The really hollow argument advanced by the right is Biden handing over all of the equipment to the Taliban. Was he supposed to just take it all away from the Afghan government and then withdraw?
If you really analyze their comments and dig deeper into the resentment behind it, its mostly misdirected anger that a radical Islamic fundamentalist group now has access and use of very technologically sophisticated, deadly top-rate American military hardware that now very likely could be sold or auctioned off to other countries (Russia, China, Iran) or the eventually find their way via illicit illegal international arms traders/markets to other terrorist groups in the region who would co-opt it for their own deadly purposes against American foreign interests or regional bases(suicide attacks, bombings, rocket attacks, assassination attempts).

Their upset that they forking have them right now, period.
 

Saintman2884

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Accurate. Having served in WW2 -- and his general character -- Bush I was not easily manipulated by the Cheneys, Rumsfelds, and Wolfowitzes of the world. Bush II got sucked in by the warmongering elites.
Bush II got sucked in because of the nation's unending, insatiable need for revenge after the 9/11 terrorist attacks in NYC and Washington, and to punish those responsible for aiding and abetting al-Qaeda operatives who meticulously planned, orchestrated, and then executed the attacks. That's when many of the neoconservatives who had existed in his father's administration but were a minority or those who werent but got converted throughout the 1990's during Clinton years manipulated and preyed on his inexperience, gullibility, and frankly, lack of greater, fuller understanding of nuances and complexities of foreign policy situations around the globe got us started, first in Afghanistan and later, Iraq.

Obama, IMHO, probably will be the one U.S. president I suspect when historians look back on our 20-year involvement in Afghanistan, who couldve realistically announced a gradual, systematic withdrawal of U.S. troops after raid which killed Bin Laden in Abbottabad. We keep returning to that main, central issue, in raiding Bin Laden's compound and wiping out his terrorist cell, main al-Qaeda leadership, we had achieved essentially what we had originally set out to door in Afghanistan in October 2001.

We didnt need to be there anymore, from a practical and foreign-policy purpose. It wouldve been difficult to articulate or massage it as a PR message and there's also a very strong possibility Taliban would've eventually regained control of the country, but it occurs at the more gradual, systemic level Biden's intelligence teams foolishly assumed would occur, or on a similar, time-table scenario and there's probably a lot less Saigon 2.0 chaos occuring to get essential U.S. assets, their wives and families out, as well as documented/undocumented American expats.
 

Taurus

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Bush II got sucked in because of the nation's unending, insatiable need for revenge after the 9/11 terrorist attacks in NYC and Washington, and to punish those responsible for aiding and abetting al-Qaeda operatives who meticulously planned, orchestrated, and then executed the attacks. That's when many of the neoconservatives who had existed in his father's administration but were a minority or those who werent but got converted throughout the 1990's during Clinton years manipulated and preyed on his inexperience, gullibility, and frankly, lack of greater, fuller understanding of nuances and complexities of foreign policy situations around the globe got us started, first in Afghanistan and later, Iraq.

Obama, IMHO, probably will be the one U.S. president I suspect when historians look back on our 20-year involvement in Afghanistan, who couldve realistically announced a gradual, systematic withdrawal of U.S. troops after raid which killed Bin Laden in Abbottabad. We keep returning to that main, central issue, in raiding Bin Laden's compound and wiping out his terrorist cell, main al-Qaeda leadership, we had achieved essentially what we had originally set out to door in Afghanistan in October 2001.

We didnt need to be there anymore, from a practical and foreign-policy purpose. It wouldve been difficult to articulate or massage it as a PR message and there's also a very strong possibility Taliban would've eventually regained control of the country, but it occurs at the more gradual, systemic level Biden's intelligence teams foolishly assumed would occur, or on a similar, time-table scenario and there's probably a lot less Saigon 2.0 chaos occuring to get essential U.S. assets, their wives and families out, as well as documented/undocumented American expats.

Bush II was a sockpuppet before 9/11. Enron, anyone? They prettymuch invented the term 'corporate whore' just for him.
 

Taurus

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I think if Obama had the wherewithal to pull us out of Afghanistan in an orderly way, he would have done so after his surge in 2014. The fact that he didn't, suggest he couldn't. He elected to keep us in the forever war and pass the buck to the next president.

Maybe he could have done better in Biden's situation, but given we were at 2,500 troops when Biden took over and under a bad withdrawal agreement with the release of 5,000 Taliban fighters, I highly doubt it would have been astonishingly different. I think he would have been more likely to surge troops again and continue the protracted war. Which would have cost more American military lives and the 13 we lost in the withdrawal.

Forget the surge, if Obama had the stones and acumen, we'd have packed up and left after killing Bin Laden.
"We got the scumbag we came to get, mission accomplished, we're going home."
 

DaveXA

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The really hollow argument advanced by the right is Biden handing over all of the equipment to the Taliban. Was he supposed to just take it all away from the Afghan government and then withdraw?
Yeah, I don't really care that much about the equipment as long as we get everyone we need to get out of the country. I don't know how much different other administrations would have been, but I do think maybe others might have forseen the speed and complete downfall of the Afghan government and planned accordingly. Biden acted like he had no idea that might happen, although he's since hedged his earlier comments.

I suspect Bush I would have used our military to go and get everyone out, even those in remote parts of the country, before they knew we committed to leaving the country. I would never have set a hard date to leave until I was reasonable confident everyone was accounted for.

I actually think Obama would have done the same thing. Obama not leaving Afghanistan in the 8 years he was President was one of his bigger foreign policy blunders was never getting out. I know there are probably reasons, but he was President, and the one who had the ability to make that call.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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Withdrawal was always going to be a mess, but it didn't have to be this big of a mess. Even you weren't absolutely sure that the Afghan government was going to collapse so quickly, you had to have a plan for if it did, and from the outside looking in, we appear to have been caught completely off guard.

I don't know who could have done it better, but this was an objectively poor job, and that should be enough - because it's Biden's watch now, and this clearly falls under his authority.
 

MT15

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This sort of disinformation may be appearing in your social media. Just so you’re aware, the source appears to be the NRF, a resistance movement against the Taliban.


 

FullMonte

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I hope these guys kept this memo. It could prove to be important.

For all those who have claimed that Trump would have handled the Afghanistan pullout better than Biden, Carl Woodward reports that on Nov 11 (right after the election), the former Joint Chief Mark Milley received a memo from Trump directing the complete withdrawl of all US troops from Somalia by Dec 31,2020, and from Afghanistan by Jan 15,2021. None of the principals (Joint Chiefs, SecDef, Chief of Staff to SecDef) were aware of anything, and the memo just showed up.

 

samiam5211

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I hope these guys kept this memo. It could prove to be important.

For all those who have claimed that Trump would have handled the Afghanistan pullout better than Biden, Carl Woodward reports that on Nov 11 (right after the election), the former Joint Chief Mark Milley received a memo from Trump directing the complete withdrawl of all US troops from Somalia by Dec 31,2020, and from Afghanistan by Jan 15,2021. None of the principals (Joint Chiefs, SecDef, Chief of Staff to SecDef) were aware of anything, and the memo just showed up.


People keep trying to blame Trump for all the stuff he did. Poor Donald.
 

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